Im really hoping that Dalaran is an alliance only city and horde gets a flying "naxx type" city that is really similar to UC. I hate the way that blizz went and made alliance and horde all friendly and almost gave them no diversity in the expansion. I really love the new art style they are going towards, I really dislike the art style in TBC. Everything is bright purple, green or pink.

Not to mention the incredible slowdown and lag caused by it.

This was just linked to by WoR, from some kind of Blizzard newsletter. The link isnt (yet) available via the WotLK main page, but is a fascinating read (minor lore spoilers perhaps?):

World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King

This document is about the 'new' dungeon design philosophy. I agree with the assessment of TBC's lore. The quests and lore in Hellfire are pretty good, and do actually lead up to some 'purposeful' dungeon runs in the Citadel. But the other instances (and especially the raid instances, minus Black Temple) have very tenuous lore. So there is definitely room for improvement on this front, which also includes the previous notions that the (casual) player will also be more involved with the Arthas plotline.

The article is also a first official glimpse into some deeper Northrend lore. First of all, those pale dragons we saw briefly in the previews are "proto-dragons". I don't know for sure of course, but these could be intended as the 'feral' ancestors to the Dragonflights.

All in all, a nice read with lots of nice promises. I only hope they will have enough time to actually extend these ideals beyond the first couple of zones and instances. It felt like the higher level instances in TBC (especially TK) had a more noticable lack of quests and lore.

Pretty interesting. I wish it mentioned something about how most of the TBC instances are too thoroughly linear, but no dice there. Hopefully they manage to incorporate some architecture that's a little more meaningful than "hallway -> big room! -> hallway -> big room! -> repeat".

Reminds me of the expansion act of Diablo II. Sounds like they've learned a promising amount from TBC. Hopefully they won't go overboard and force you through ten minutes of dialogue for every five-man boss fight...

Even though there was a lot of it, I preferred the dragon and undead theme of the original game over almost everything the expansion has to offer (TBC). I think they changed their philosophy on game mechanics far too much with TBC and hopefully a lot of it will be fixed or improved on in WoTLK.

The art style of WoTLK is far more appealing to me then the shit which is TBC. TBC is far too colorful and bright for me. The lore and quests for the most part seem very bland (outside of Hellfire and Shadowmoon Valley, both of which were awesome) and ultimately, not important.

I like how they approached dungeons in TBC for the most part, but i dislike how they made every instance pretty much the same. Winged dungeons are great, but why does every dungeon have to be winged? I personally liked the enormous BRD runs from time to time and hopefully we see return of these instances in WoTLK (in moderation, and done right).

While I understand what you are saying, think you are looking at old world instances with rose tinted glasses. Yes, a few dungeons, like Blood Furnance, most of the Auch instances and Arcatraz (arguably) are like this. However, I was much more impressed walking into Slave Pens, Underbog, Mechanaar, Botanica, KARAZHAN (hell, I still like the art design of that zone with the ceiling being torn into another dimension) etc.. for the first time then I was in pretty much any old world instance. BRD was cool for how huge it was, yes. I remember 'discovering' (really just areas that I had barely noticed before) new areas of the zone a year after it opened, stealthing around on my rogue, simply because no one ever ran that area. But, that's a drawback too. It means most people aren't gonna see those areas, and designer time was wasted on that. What I'm saying is, would you rather have one BRD or 4 new 5 mans like slave pens? I'd rather have the 4 new instances. But, it's a matter of preference.

If the BRD/Strath style uber dungeon is designed well, so that it's really those 4 instances combined into one, but any of the 4 'wings' are doable by themselves, like undead/live side strath, then we get the best of both worlds. But, that doesn't always work out either. You often end up with lower spire type areas, that no one runs unless they have to. Or, where there is no clear division between the areas, meaning most people expect to clear the whole thing if they go there, otherwise feeling like they didn't 'complete' the run. That leads to 3-4 hr instance runs, which Blizzard has tried to get away from, and has been generally accepted as a good change.

BRD suffered from only having one true 'end boss', and he was so far back in that hardly anyone did Emperor runs once there was higher content available or you were with a guild group trying to pick up a specific item.

If BRD had been split into 3-4 easily definable 'wings', each ending in a boss with relatively equal loot tables, you would have seen it run more by PUGs.

So, to end my rambling. I wouldn't mind seeing dungeons that are somewhere in between the super short dungeons we have now, and the epic 5/10 man dungeons we had in vanilla WoW. But, they need to keep the option to do a <1 hour dungeon run for any of these, and still feel like you 'completed' the dungeon. Optional bosses will either always be done if their loot is good, or always skipped if it's not worth the hassle. Really, they just need more epic 10 mans like kara, BRD was originally a 10 man dungeon anyway. 5 mans can be short and still feel somewhat epic, they did it well with underbog/slave pens imo.

Sure, BRD was too huge, that's pretty well accepted. But Stratholme was a great instance with enough non-linearity to keep the design interesting for quite awhile, including some optional bosses. Moreso with LBRS; a creative design with multiples ways to traverse it. Too much trash, but nonetheless a very compelling environment and pretty quick with a competent group. Even Dire Maul had some non-linearity in DM:E.

I just don't think that every instance has to smash you in the face with "HERE IS A LOOT CONTAINER NAMED WARLORD BLARGH, KILL FOR LOOT AND PROCEED DOWN HALLWAY TO NEXT LOOT CONTAINER".

I apologize. I thought you meant the actual design of the instance, i.e. hallway, big room w/ boss, hallway, big room w/boss.. You dislike the linear nature of the current instances. I can agree with that. There's really no way, or reason to, to do the bosses in a current 5 man in any order other then the intended order. That's an issue with their being so few bosses in a zone though. You can't put better loot on the last boss and then allow people to skip 2/4 of the bosses in the zone to get to him. The 'gate' mechanic works to an extent for this, but I bet it would eventually get old too.

Basically, I don't really have an issue with the way they approached things in TBC as far as 5 mans, but there's still room for improvement. We went from one extreme to the other, and I think we can come back a little towards the old approach and hit the 'sweet spot'. That is, as long as they keep the ability to complete the run in an hour, anything else they want to do is a bonus. Even semi-hardcore players/raiders like myself appreciate being able to accomplish something in a short time period, as a lot of my play time is taken up raiding. If every 5 man was 2 hours or more, I'd never squeeze one in after work/before a raid. It'd only be on off nights, and I try to go out those nights. I mean, I might play 30 hours a week, and 20-25 of that is taken up raiding. 30 hours is a full time job in some countries

Just more diversity in dungeons then anything. Everything is too linear for the most part. Options are a great thing and hopefully we get more of them. It looks to be very promising at this point in time with the addition of extra parts of a dungeon that unlocks when you activate heroic mode, or something of the sorts. Rare spawns, optional paths, winged dungeons, massive dungeons, meaningful and objective based goals all make instances come more to life. It's why in my opinion, CoT:OHB is the best designed dungeon in the game (5 man). It's very nostalgic and non-traditional compared to other instances.

Maybe labelling the art style in the expansion as 'shit' is a tad too far, but I still despise it greatly. A lot of people like the art style of the expansion, and I can assure you there a massive amount that dislike it as well. It's not really the actual art per say, but more of the atmosphere that it projects more then anything. The expansion feels far less Warcraftish to me and more like something I would expect from Star Craft (part of the reason I try and stay away from Netherstorm all together, though the Eco-Domes are pretty cool). Then again its to be expected as the game is constantly moving forward and we can't always be living in the past. Outland is cool and everything, but I feel they could've done it a bit better.

I don't think it was the size of BRD that left it largely underutilized, but rather that it was level 54-55 content. Most players at that point are rushing to get to 60, and not as interested in crawling the largest (?) 5-man instance in the game. In their heyday, the level 60 instances like Strat, Scholo, and UBRS were run ad nauseum by most people; had BRD been level 60 content I have little doubt that it would have been one of the most popular instances for level capped players.

BRD was a very cool dungeon (a vast underground city with crumbling ramparts and lava floes!) but suffered from poor implementation. Fortunately with the addition of Heroics, players who perhaps skipped over a dungeon while leveling will have a chance to revisit it at the level cap.

I'd actually rather say it's the fact that it's content covers pretty much the entire 50-60 range. The first part is low 50s, but as the dungeon progresses you got into high 50s; a group of 52s could easily do a large part of the dungeon, but would get slaughtered by the later parts of it. A group of people with high enough level for the later parts still has to go through (part of) the older part they are now too high level for; that's only partly covered by the quicker route you can take once you have the key.

The thing that was so odd about the lack of lore in the BC instances was how easy lore is to implement, compared to boss design + art design + environment design. Lore nerds are cheap dates. Give me four-five quests with a few followups, a few interesting boss yells, and an in-instance book and I am just as happy as can be. You don't even need to design the overall zone around it, like Deadmines did.

Maybe the problem was expectations vs. reality. A perfect example was the Shadow Labyrinth.

It was called a "labyrinth", but it was just the same pattern mentioned above, hallway, room, hallway, room, etc. Other than that one dead end (for a quest NPC), a toddler with a defective compass couldn't get lost in there.

Perhaps it should have been called "Shadow Library". There were sixteen goddam quest books in there anyhow. Of course, none of those books were readable. In fact, the only readable book in all of the expansion is the reconstructed Green Hills of Stranglethorn, and some fragments of other unreadables in Karazhan.

I think it's a combination of the two. First, if you go in at 52-54, you're going to have trouble toward the back. And if you go in toward 60, the front is going to massively boring. Second, the place is bloody confusing. I know how to get to specific places (generally), but I still have no idea how to string those together into an efficient path. And say it's your first time in there ever, you could literally spend an hour clearing around the prison areas and encounter 2ish bosses (if my memory serves correctly one of those is a rare spawn). You can go around the ring of spectators and go that way, or you can head to your left when you go in to start and go that way. It's just not very simple. And even if you do know where you're going, it's huuuuuge. A full clear is going to take hours. Even a direct to emperor run will take hours( I didn't even kill the emp till after I had killed Rag...). And there are only so many times you can be in a PuG that falls apart two hours in before you want to kill yourself.

I vastly prefer TBC's model. Only have 2 hours before the raid? No worries. Have a quest in one? Very likely to complete it when you finish your run. First time there? No need to worry about spending vast amounts of time clearing trash that's later revealed to be mostly useless. Rep? Yes please. I just think they're vastly superior to BRD in nearly every way (aesthetically it's is a matter of personal choice - I personally like BRD better being a dwarf, but some of my night elf friends hate the place).

Black Rock Depths isn't nessecarily too large for an instance. Its very nice to have a place you can move around in and the place does provide very nice views. It does feel like an underground City.

The problem as I see it is just that the place is so packed with mobs that you need to spend too long time slugging through the place before reaching anywhere.

Why does Blizzard have to pack their instances full with mobs?

Why not cut out 2/3 of all the mobs in the entire first part of it? If miss-pulls and fear adds are supposed to be part of the difficulty then sure have some larger concentrations of mobs. Just don't fill up the instances entirely with mobs.

For a large instance to be enjoyable to explore you must feel its possible to travel at a decent pace there. Shouldn't have to slowly slug through whole hordes of mobs to get anywhere.

Not to mention that with hordes of trash everywhere patrols are something you have to wait for suddenly; and not something that adds difficulty because of potential adds. Less mob packs over all; but more random patrols with an actual risk of supprising people while exploring could add to the fun.

I guess most prople have done druid/rogue only stealth runs through instances. Can be pretty refreshing. Skipping most of the trash is nice. But more importantly its suddenly possible to just move around and enjoy the view. Don't see why a normal-non stealth run can't offer a little of that feeling by allowing people to move around a bit without having to fight every 10 feet.

Now some trash packs and patrols are needed obviously. But at least for me I think Blizzard generally have too much trash in their instances (well and too many trash mobs in the world also really).

Its not a problem if instances are big. Very big dungeons with the same 'trash density' as the smaller instances are a problem though.

But the poor pally tanks will get bored if there are less than five mobs.

Honestly, I loved BRD. It's the only place in WoW that actually feels like a city... mostly because of the 10000 mobs packed into it. Reminds me of an underground NYC, with firegaurds instead of alligators in the sewers.

That said, I like a lot of the TBC instances, too. But I have to agree with some of the earlier posters. There's just not enough lore in the TBC instances after Hellfire. I mean, honestly, what the hell is Gorefiend doing in the Black Temple? Why is there a random pack of Ethereals in the room before the last boss in Arcatraz? It's stuff like that that just makes you wonder what Blizz was thinking.

I'll remain optimistic for the instances in WotLK. Utgarde Keep is sounding like it'll be a lot of fun, and there's more to come.

To be honest, I think single large dungeons with different areas within them are better than winged instances.
BRD had 1 main path and around 2-3 diversions you could take.
BRS... well thats basicly a winged instance.
Strath had Living and UD side, both fitting.

The reason? im not quite sure, the instances felt more whole and complete, whereas each winged instance feels so different that it doesn't really fit together, despite the basic overall theme/name...

BRD would definitely have had a much different feel if they were to drastically reduce the number of mobs populating the place. It's the Dark Iron capital, counterpart to Ironforge, and turning it into a desolate place seems kind of off. If the bar only had 1, 2, or 3 drunk dwarves instead, I would wonder why the place was such a ghost town, and why I'm there in the first place. There still needs to be the sense of awe and suspense from stepping into an instance that has been played up by quest after quest; to enter an empty instance would be a big let down.

The thing is mostly that IF is a ghost town compared to BRD. All the capitol cities are surprisingly empty for places that are supposed to be hubs of trade and politics. BRD is packed to the gills with diplomats, cityfolk, drunkards and soldiers. If all capitol cities were like that, it'd probably be impossible to move around with all the lag (Shat is bad enough as-is) but it'd feel like you were in an actual city.

I grew up in the suburbs. First time I went to NYC, I was in awe. Shat, SW, IF and all the other cities have never given me anything remotely close to that, while BRD does.

And I seem to have strayed off topic. Sorry. >_<

I think it might be possible to strike a good balance in between this though. Let's take the Utgarde Keep article posted as an example, it mentions Ingvar the Plunderer commanding his troops from a balcony overlooking the Howling Fjord. If the area being overlooked here was filled with Vrykul, we'd have a far more 'Bloody hell, this guy's a commander!' feeling than if the area is just completely empty scenery. This would be even more so if that part of the environment gets used in the fight somehow; for instance the Vrykul below notice their commander fighting with a group of adventurers, so they start rushing into the keep, and a bunch of them flying proto-dragons come as adds into the encounter.

In this way the environment could feel alive, without necessarily having to be filled with a lot of trash.

It's not so much the number of mobs, it's the number of distinct, difficult pulls between bosses.

There were more mobs in 1 room of BRD than there were in entire TBC instances. The difference was 1) they weren't elite, and 2) you didn't have to kill them all, or even most of them.

WotLK can inspire 'awe' by having shitloads of mobs in instances, but these mobs don't need to be broken up into pulls that demand strategic planning. They can be rooms sort of like the Lyceum, where you just peer out into the distance, mutter "Let's do this..." and just go rampaging.

You can't rampage in TBC instances.