I dont completely agree with your point about 5 mans. The only real benefit deep Prot has there is Focused Rage, and that is already -in my opinion- a cover up for the basic Warrior tank flaw in 5 mans: extreme rage starvation, even when not outgearing the content. There is -again in my opinion of course- absolutely no need for Shield Slam or Devastate in a multi-mob environment. The lack of rage emphasizes that even more.
For raid tanking I agree. Arms and Fury threat generation is hilariously bad.
If Blizzard want to adress Warrior 5 man issues, that is where they'll have to start. Improve rage gain while tanking. Make it in Defensive Stance only if they are scared about PvP consequences.
Not quite sure what you're saying about 5-mans. If you don't care about holding aggro on everything, then yes, Prot isn't any better than anything else. But if you do, then the benefits are substantial. Free revenges are great; Shield Slam costing as much rage as Sunder Armor for potentially 5x the threat is a big deal; even larger Cleaves from 1h spec is useful.
Sunder Armor is a horrendous, non-scaling skill, and it's unfathomable that it's the core threat kill for non-Prot tanks.
Not quite sure what you're saying about 5-mans. If you don't care about holding aggro on everything, then yes, Prot isn't any better than anything else. But if you do, then the benefits are substantial. Free revenges are great; Shield Slam costing as much rage as Sunder Armor for potentially 5x the threat is a big deal; even larger Cleaves from 1h spec is useful.
Sunder Armor is a horrendous, non-scaling skill, and it's unfathomable that it's the core threat kill for non-Prot tanks.
I must admit that I havent played my Warrior in a while, so my impressions are those from levelling and gearing up in TBC 5 mans before the recent Devastate changes. (and mostly before the TC change to Def Stance as well)
What I mean is that my basic tactic for tanking was good old Sunder-tab with Revenge thrown in when it was up. Which is exactly the same as you'd do if arms specced. It was quite uncommon that I'd actually have enough rage to fit a Shield Slam in.
Of course needing less rage helps a lot on threat. But only because of the extreme lack of rage to fill all gcds. My main point is that the biggest difference between Prot or not is exactly that. It would be a lot bigger if you could actually use Shield Slam every time it's up while still using the other gcds to build threat on all mobs.
My biggest gripe is that non-specced tanks have issues with "I cant press a single god damn button" instead of "my buttons arent as good". That's what I mean as well with SS-isnt-needed-statement. It's a bit hard to explain exactly what I mean. Blizzard tried to fix non-specced tanking with that TM change, but that really doesnt help at all, especially in 5 mans where again "I cant press a single god damn button". I hope this made my point more clear.
Yes, in general rage is a frustrating mechanic for warriors, moreso than for druids I think. They could stand to improve it for both incoming and outgoing damage portions.
Yes, in general rage is a frustrating mechanic for warriors, moreso than for druids I think. They could stand to improve it for both incoming and outgoing damage portions.
But they'd have to rebalance the whole system if warriors were to generate more rage, especially if you keep pvp in mind, where warriors already end up having close to unlimited rage for long periods of time(and the next second are rage starved and can't even hamstring stuff).
Rage isn't so bad with druids because their avoidance is lower, their rage generation thru hits is higher(higher white hits generation I think, and crit synergy with the talent that gives +5rage on crit, natural crit+lotp and swipe hitting more targets) and as such you usually see a smoother flow of rage. Then again every once in a while you end up rage starved due to dodges streaks and it sucks just as much.
The whole rage system is inherently flawed and needs a lot of adjusting as seen in the past history, because it's both used for offensive and defensive purposes, and is generated both by getting hit and hitting. Striking a balance between these concepts that doesn't make one overpowered is really hard, especially since the whole thing also scales with gear on different levels(avoidance mitigation and attack power/speed all impact rage generation).
That's why in a way paladins tanking mechanics are much more reliable, and follow an easier to balance system. There's a lot of other issues with paladins tho, like the fact it's mostly magic damage which doesn't follow melee systems, the need for additional stats and the lack of full proper tanking skills(which also affects bears, at least in comparison to warriors).
How the DK will end up in this, and how the other tanks will evolve with wotlk remains to be seen, one can hope for a really good balance between the tanks so main tanking isn't so much easier/natural for a prot warrior compared to the rest, because while offtanking/tanking massive trash is useful, quite frankly most people playing tank classes would rather be the one tanking arthas than the legions of ghouls he'll pop on you.
I sure hope we'll see a bit more information on this soon, but since they're not ready with their sunwell info yet, I doubt it'll be the case for some more time.
On a side note, to come back on the old gods discussion earlier in this thread, I really PRAY for a fast-type raid entry encounter, with an old god/something like it, that will mimic chtun. I really hope everyone will get to see this old content encounter revisited, and I would love to do him again, tuned and itemized properly as a challenging encounter. Hell, for the fun of it, make it like gruul's lair, with an Ossirian type of raid boss holding maulgar's spot. Maybe we'll see something like that in sunwell tho, heard something about fighting a dragon/demon on multiple planes, reminds me of stomach stuff, and also of my HL2 Portal inspired encounter.
But they'd have to rebalance the whole system if warriors were to generate more rage, especially if you keep pvp in mind, where warriors already end up having close to unlimited rage for long periods of time(and the next second are rage starved and can't even hamstring stuff).
I think you pointed out why it wouldn't be a tremendous problem if warriors had more rage. They already do have plenty of it in some circumstances, and none in others.
Well some kind of modified clearcasting ability for warrior tanking could work;
"When you parry or dodge an attack your next Shield Slam, Devestate, [Insert whatever other tanking abilities are used mostly] is free. The clearcasting effect cannot occur more than once per 6 sec."
A method of turning avoidance into something beyond an added concern in threat generation is needed, but in a way in which it cannot be exploited (aka just stacking it to the max) or enabling abuse in PvP or DPS situations (granted Devestate but thats so far in the Prot tree).
Right now at T6 level its almost seeming like a 'how can remove as much avoidance as possible' on some encounters... purely because of the extreme dampener on threat generation it causes, and this again seemed to be happening in the end of pre-TBC aswell.
Its funny how the same problems end up happening again (hello dagger specs - albeit they 'fixed' it just before Naxx back then) despite their bandage jobs, I wonder when they will spend the time and actually look at the older, core problems and attempt to really fix them.
MMO Champs posted a few new concept artworks for WotLK. There are two misty lake type images that are pretty generic (it could be Wintergrasp). Then there's an underground structure which probably is a concept for Azjol-Nerub. The two strongholds with the Horde flags look a lot like the in-game shots of Warsong Hold (or whatever it was called). But the most interesting are those skywalks. I have no idea where that belongs. I suppose it could be Tauren/Taunka, since it has some elements of Thunderbluff-like architecture. I was expecting less floaty high concept stuff in Northrend, but this looks quite interesting.
But the most interesting are those skywalks. I have no idea where that belongs. I suppose it could be Tauren/Taunka, since it has some elements of Thunderbluff-like architecture. I was expecting less floaty high concept stuff in Northrend, but this looks quite interesting.
There are quite a lot of dragons in that screenshot, so it probably is in the vicinity of the Dragonblight. The dragons all seem to have damaged wings, making them appear a bit, well, demonic. If it has to do something with dragons, then I don't think it's related to the Tauren.
MMO Champs posted a few new concept artworks for WotLK. There are two misty lake type images that are pretty generic (it could be Wintergrasp). Then there's an underground structure which probably is a concept for Azjol-Nerub. The two strongholds with the Horde flags look a lot like the in-game shots of Warsong Hold (or whatever it was called). But the most interesting are those skywalks. I have no idea where that belongs. I suppose it could be Tauren/Taunka, since it has some elements of Thunderbluff-like architecture. I was expecting less floaty high concept stuff in Northrend, but this looks quite interesting.
That could be part of Utgarde, which has dragon pens that are open to the sky as seen in other artwork.
There are quite a lot of dragons in that screenshot, so it probably is in the vicinity of the Dragonblight. The dragons all seem to have damaged wings, making them appear a bit, well, demonic. If it has to do something with dragons, then I don't think it's related to the Tauren.
Eh, the shape of the buildings looks generally like the totems with wingsish design of Tauren buildings. The Dragons are Frost Wyrms, flying in the background, I don't know the Tauken relationship with the Scourge, but if they're fighting us then that makes them evil right?
That was his point....If it takes nothing to earn a deathknight at high level, then everyone WILL have one, if for no other fact then it's easier then leveling a gather character/alt from level 1. Hence the glut. He kind of wanted you to have to pay a price to get the death knight, so not everyone and their grandma would have one.
Starting at higher level + being new = recipe for 75% of population being death knights for a time. God help the economy for plate gear at that point.
I'm concerned how this will affect my guild actually, I can easily see 10+ people playing DKs, which means i'd probably have to recruit 7-8 new people to fill the healing or whatever spots they left in the raid. Not looking forward to having 7 DKs on the bench every night.
It is precisely the 'free' level 50+ character that makes me believe that Blizzard will actually make it so you can make *any* character at the high level; the DK will just be limited to not starting at 1 like other classes can. I just don't see anything else preventing a huge pile of DKs and nothing else. I don't buy the 'make the class complex to play' because, let's face it, they aren't going to make it seriously tough, so most people could make one and be effective with it. I mean, if you're level 70 and want to play a tank class, do you roll a level 55 DK or a level 1 warrior/paladin/druid?
The speeding up of levelling pre-outland further feels like them basically saying it doesn't matter. Probably if you've hit level X, you can make a DK or other class at the pre-defined level and go on having fun.
Heck, maybe the big money sink will be 10k to unlock the ability to make any class at a high level. Who knows.
It is precisely the 'free' level 50+ character that makes me believe that Blizzard will actually make it so you can make *any* character at the high level; the DK will just be limited to not starting at 1 like other classes can. I just don't see anything else preventing a huge pile of DKs and nothing else. I don't buy the 'make the class complex to play' because, let's face it, they aren't going to make it seriously tough, so most people could make one and be effective with it. I mean, if you're level 70 and want to play a tank class, do you roll a level 55 DK or a level 1 warrior/paladin/druid?
The speeding up of levelling pre-outland further feels like them basically saying it doesn't matter. Probably if you've hit level X, you can make a DK or other class at the pre-defined level and go on having fun.
Heck, maybe the big money sink will be 10k to unlock the ability to make any class at a high level. Who knows.
Arison
Can't really see that happening to be honest. A class is introduced slowly starting with a few abilities and working up. The requirement on the DK to have at least a level 55 character means that new players to the class are at least familiar with many of WoW's mechanics. But a 55 Deathknight still allows Blizzard to implement new abilities slowly each level, sure their rank 1 shadowbolt (guess) may be as powerful as a Warlocks rank 6 or whatever, but the point is they can control and implement abilities slowly.
Allowing someone to start any other class at that level is going to flood them with over a hundred new abilties/ranks instantly and leave them pretty confused as to what they have. It also bypasses class quests that help to train such abilities (rogues especially here). Whilst your 10,000 gold unlock fee might exclude the large part of the bad players I still think it would give rise to a host of bad players who don't know their class, not to mention the eventual nerfing of the 10k gold limit to let more do it, further increasing the problem.
Hopefully they won't have a big money sink at 80 this time, helps drive out Gold Sellers if they don't. Long quest based progression for prestige items is a much better way to handle it.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Can't really see that happening to be honest. A class is introduced slowly starting with a few abilities and working up. The requirement on the DK to have at least a level 55 character means that new players to the class are at least familiar with many of WoW's mechanics. But a 55 Deathknight still allows Blizzard to implement new abilities slowly each level, sure their rank 1 shadowbolt (guess) may be as powerful as a Warlocks rank 6 or whatever, but the point is they can control and implement abilities slowly.
That raises an interesting point actually - how quickly are they going to introduce DK abilities as you level?
If you start at level 50, will you start with just the barebones equivalents of heroic strike/charge/battle shout, or are you going to have a similar number of abilities as a normal level 50?
The latter seems like it could be quite confusing, even for the average EJ reader, so I'd assume the first, but perhaps that will be a little harder to balance for levelling?
Of course, the big question right now is what colour will Death Knights be...?
That raises an interesting point actually - how quickly are they going to introduce DK abilities as you level?
If you start at level 50, will you start with just the barebones equivalents of heroic strike/charge/battle shout, or are you going to have a similar number of abilities as a normal level 50?
The latter seems like it could be quite confusing, even for the average EJ reader, so I'd assume the first, but perhaps that will be a little harder to balance for levelling?
Of course, the big question right now is what colour will Death Knights be...?
I'd imagine that you'd start with 4-6 abilities and gain more the same level you start via the completion of training quests to quickly get the player up to speed. They could even adopt the new skills each level format for before 60 that all classes had in TBC for 61-70. I'm really looking forward to the DK starting area, hope it starts out as proper DK training getting quests from the Lich King's DK trainers. Each quest teaches the player uses for their current abilities and rewards new abilities and green plate tailored (both looks and stats) only for the DK. As the quests progress you change your mind, break free and end up slaying your former teacher? Would be cool.
Its not that overwhleming though when you strip out all new ranks of the same spells trained each level, after you get your initial batch of spells between 1-20 you only really get a new spell every 4-8 levels. Compact that onto a DK timeframe and I'd imagine that a new ability each level would work out well. That would mean DK's in the 59 brackets would be fairly underdeveloped with a low amount of skills though. I'd imagine you can add a few more in via talents though, though I wonder if you'll immediately have 41-46 talent points to spend as soon as you start, that could be a bit overwhelming for the average player too.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I'm personally hoping it'll work with just a few starter abilities, with the Death Knight starting area having quests which both explain the backstory of how you break free from the Scourge, as well as serve to introduce you to the class abilities.
For example, you could be told to report to Death Knight Trainer Bob for training in Death and Decay, and Death Knight Trainer Bob then gives you the Death and Decay ability, and also gives you a quest to kill 20 Hapless Peasants, whom are best killed using the Death and Decay ability.
I'm Curious, is there any one repository of DK information out there with links to or quotes from the relevant blue sources? I havent been able to find much of anything really that has most all of the current alluded to information. So i lose track of what is rumour and what came from a blue (which i know in itself is not a guarantee it'll be like that in the end).
From what i understand so far (please correct anything ive got anything wrong):
Level a character to 70 to unlock DKs for your account
DK's will start between level 50-60
Do a prequest in an instance before you enter WoW proper
No shields for DK's (they mention they want DK's using a big 2H weapon so unsure if this means no dual wield also)
The three talent trees are Blood, Unholy and Frost?
Aiming for a class role similair to a feral druid (hybrid dps/tank)
Rune resource system where you have X amount of runes that take time to recharge
Abilities require one or more of certain runes to activate.
Some spells were mentioned but i have since forgotten them. I remember one shown that had the DK summoning a small army of undead (will orc racial pet dmg bonus effect this?). Does anyone remember what other abilities (if any) have been mentioned?
Things id like to know:
What races are available?
What level do tradeskills start at?
Do you start with a mount?
What will be a DK's primary stats (Will DK's be sharing warrior or pally gear)?
What are DK's starting reputation like with the main cities?
How do they plan to make DKs viable in PVP (main concern being mobility and utility)?
Will runes recharge at a set rate?
Most of the above i would like to know so that i can start building a shopping list of things to start hoarding.
Personally i would have liked to see the DK get its own thread in the class mechanics forum but id consider myself too light a poster on these forums to be confident starting a new thread. Plus as mentioned i dont have any links to where the above things were mentioned.
Is it too soon for the DK to have its own thread? Sure it might have a fair bit of specualtion but then so do many of the threads on these forums, especially the pvp ones. I think it would be worth it to have a solid reference point of what is currently known about a DK and get some intelligent discussion on what a DK could bring to the table.
That has most of the information that has been released, with a bit of speculation. Remember tho that there's been very little info at all about the class. Also note that I don't believe they'll even release wotlk before this summer. It's not like there's a hurry to start a shopping list. Just wait until the beta starts, and people start leaking talent trees and impressions, or blizzard does it, then you can start farming the stuff you want. It'll still be 2+ months away from release, if it follows BC example.
Aiming for a class role similair to a feral druid (hybrid dps/tank)
I actually think they will be more like a Warrior than a Feral Druid. With two Roles (the same roles as a Warrior) and three trees its likely they'll even mimic warrior in trees, that is a Tank tree, a PvE DPS tree and a PvP DPS tree.
I doubt that tank specced DK's will be on par with feral specced Druids DPS wise, more like a prot warrior equiv is now. For them to really fit in though a niche would be needed, and a speciality at tanking caster bosses would fit in perfectly as no one really has that speciality at the moment. It also makes more sense due to the fact that they can't use a shield so their armour is likely to be the lowest of all the tank classes unless they get some self armour buff.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I actually think they will be more like a Warrior than a Feral Druid. With two Roles (the same roles as a Warrior) and three trees its likely they'll even mimic warrior in trees, that is a Tank tree, a PvE DPS tree and a PvP DPS tree.
I doubt that tank specced DK's will be on par with feral specced Druids DPS wise, more like a prot warrior equiv is now. For them to really fit in though a niche would be needed, and a speciality at tanking caster bosses would fit in perfectly as no one really has that speciality at the moment. It also makes more sense due to the fact that they can't use a shield so their armour is likely to be the lowest of all the tank classes unless they get some self armour buff.
Might be our players/gear I'm not sure, but when our main offtank prot warrior equips his fury gear, he outdps our feral in dps gear/catform with devastate spam. Probably because feral dps doesn't scale too well, even with the buffs in 2.3.
Anyway, I really want to see how the DK plays, hope it's not mind numbling boring like paladin tanking, but more reactive. I could really care less about the dps part, but I'd like to play a new tank that's as "interesting" as a prot war, feral just don't cut it.
I am an information whore and try to find out as much as I can about these things.
Unfortunantly I can't provide links to where I got my info from, but here's what I can tell you:
Originally Posted by Grizzly
Level a character to 70 to unlock DKs for your account (Incorrect for the moment, Blizzard has since changed stance and will allow DKs for anyone above level X, X not being set at the moment, but probably 55-70. They don't want people grinding out the new levels as a chore before being allowed to try out the new class.)
DK's will start between level 50-60 (True, afaik)
Do a prequest in an instance before you enter WoW proper (The ideia of DKs starting in Stratholme and having to bust out was throw around in interviews but never accepted as a certain thing)
No shields for DK's (they mention they want DK's using a big 2H weapon so unsure if this means no dual wield also)(True I think, but they should be able to dual wield going from the info put out when DKs were announced)
The three talent trees are Blood, Unholy and Frost? (True)
Rune resource system where you have X amount of runes that take time to recharge
Abilities require one or more of certain runes to activate.
(Yeah, runes seem to function like 3 independent energy bars with lower granularity)
Things id like to know:
What races are available? (All of them)
What level do tradeskills start at? (Not defined)
Do you start with a mount? (Never mentioned afaik)
What will be a DK's primary stats (Will DK's be sharing warrior or pally gear)? (Never stated afaik)
What are DK's starting reputation like with the main cities? (Not sure but I think I remember seing that they started at flat 0 with every city in your faction for flavour reasons. Take this with a grain of salt.)
How do they plan to make DKs viable in PVP (main concern being mobility and utility)? (Never mentioned afaik)
It also makes more sense due to the fact that they can't use a shield so their armour is likely to be the lowest of all the tank classes unless they get some self armour buff.
Druids can't use shields, so they have the least armor of all tanking classes too, right?
Shield or no shield is irrelevant to armor - they can just as easily have an Armor spell that makes them have the most armor in the game.
Actually, given what little is known about the DK class, it seems like they could be the most customizable tank. Rather than swap out gear pieces for aggro/mitigation/stam they can use different combination of runes - so depending on the fight (or maybe even during the fight?) they can adjust their runes so they have magic resistances, armor, threat, or who knows what else.
Hence why I said likely and not will be, and why I said unless they get a self armour buff. Please read the post better before replying.
I think he's trying to make the valid point that there is no correlation at all for tanking classes between shields and high armor. So saying it's even likely is misguided.
It would be fantastic if DKs can take the place of those ridiculous resistance tanking requirements. We keep running into situations where one (or last week, both) of our resist tanks couldn't make it. Fortunately we knew in advance and managed to put together a second pair of sets. If there was a kind of "guild-binding" instead of soulbinding it wouldn't be as much of a hassle, but a spectrum PvE resistance inscription would be good too.
Maybe that wardrobe+inventory space thing for equipment swapping can be used on the guild level as well. All the resistance gear crafted or raid-quest earned for specific boss fights could bind to the guild on creation, and can be stored in a guild wardrobe inventory (and automatically gets put in that inventory if someone holding the guild-bound gear in their bags leaves the guild).
Druids can't use shields, so they have the least armor of all tanking classes too, right?
Shield or no shield is irrelevant to armor - they can just as easily have an Armor spell that makes them have the most armor in the game.
Actually, given what little is known about the DK class, it seems like they could be the most customizable tank. Rather than swap out gear pieces for aggro/mitigation/stam they can use different combination of runes - so depending on the fight (or maybe even during the fight?) they can adjust their runes so they have magic resistances, armor, threat, or who knows what else.
I'd be amused if DK tanking were mostly proactive, twitch-based tanking. Start off by not giving them any additional mitigation from armor. Then, in their tanking tree (Frost?), give them talents that lower the GCD to 1s, increase the rate of rune-recovery and a crapload of abilities that can be activated, each with it's own rune-cost (and linked cooldowns if the rune-cost doesn't directly affect the cooldown of abilities). As an example of activities that can be activated, you can have an ability that causes the next strike to miss with 100% certainty and an ability that splits the damage from the next strike evenly between the target and the DK... on (effectively) a shared cooldown. Thus, you could "force" a fight to be tanked by a DK by having it have a Hateful Strike-like ability on a fixed timer that does an unreasonable amount of damage to the MT that can be entirely mitigated with 100% certainty by use of the right skills at the right times.
On a totally unrelated note, what do people think of new combat ratings that should be included in a new expansion? Myself, I'm thinking at least the following:
Strike Rating/Spell Strike Rating - x Strike Rating/Spell Strike Rating would increase the amount of damage your critical hits/spell critical hits deal by 1%.
Luck rating - x Luck Rating would increase the chance of all your talent and gear-based procs to increase by 1% (so with 100x Luck Rating, a mage with 3/3 Frostbite will have a 30% chance to freeze targets instead of 15%).
Regen rating - x Regen rating would increase the amount of spirit-based mana regen by 1% in FSR.
Chrono rating (bad name, I know, but my brain is fried) - x Chrono rating would decrease the interval for periodic effects by 1%(Chrono rating becomes the manner in which you can increase the dps of DoTs and the hps of HoTs without increasing dpm/hpm - in other words, an analog to haste rating, but for periodic effects).
01/26/08, 6:42 PM
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