I think all we can really conclude is:

- Death Knights will be able to tank, because Blizzard said so. This logically means they will be able to hold aggro (through some means other than pure DPS, because that would be stupidly broken) and that they will have sufficient mitigation/avoidance to be healable.
- Death Knights will be able to DPS, because Blizzard said so. They will almost certainly have some form of threat reduction or drop because it is almost impossible to be competitive DPS without one.

Given that we have no idea if crushing blows will even exist in WotLK, and Blizzard could introduce an entirely new tanking stat, and they could disable parry-haste (unlikely, but I believe they said something in connection with Shahraz to the effect that they weren't entirely happy with the effect it was having)... (Incidentally I think DKs will be able to dual-wield, so they might tank that way too.)

It is an interesting point that by making them use spell damage it will make prot paladin gear useful for more than one class/spec, which is something Blizz has expressed an interest in doing lately.

You know what might be interesting... if instead of having a taunt, DKs did higher damage to foes that did not have them targeted, using the reasoning that they're using shady/underhanded combat tactics.

You could use this mechanic for both tank and DPS death knights.

For DPSers, they'd have reduced threat from talents and spells/effects, but when they did pull aggro, the target would target them, and their DPS would plummet, and this would serve in place of a feint mechanic. For tankers, they'd have increased threat from talents and spells/effects, but when they lost aggro, the target would no longer target them, and their DPS/TPS would skyrocket, and this would serve in place of a taunt mechanic.

Maybe I'm crazy, but that would strike me as an interesting new melee style.

You are 100% correct. I have no idea how those slipped my mind. They would be the ideal weapons for the speculative concepts I put forth.

I agree, there are different ways of achieving this, however many of the other options would lead to imbalances that, while possible, are also avoidable. For example, that above named shield would require alot of tuning to acheive similar effect to armor without be completely overpowered in either PVP or PvE. Baseing their mitigation (non avoidance) on armor would give them the same scaling as the other tanks for physical damage, albiet maybe talents to boost that by an amount to help them be competitive or make up for another deficiency, much the same way warriors, druids, and paladins already do this (+armor talent plus a +% reduction ability/talent on top of that). An absorbtion shield is still a likely possibility against spell effects as well, though stacking it with armor for physical damage would, again, require a bunch of tuning, and so is still possible.

The fine line for them to walk (and us to speculate on) is that too much one way makes them overpowered or way too good that you wouldn't want another tank, and too much the other way makes them completely undesirable as tanks. There are near limitless ways to achieve this, and the hints they give provide direction to our speculation, but no scaling or degree. (is it 30% armor and 45% shield? 75% armor like druids? 60% armor and 10% talents like warriors? etc...) tons of scaling that could happen.

For people talking about Death Knights tanking with a 2h, I'd think that DW is far more likely.

Why? Because as mentioned in Blizzcast, Blizzard want to share item drops between classes where possible, and this means they can make multiple 1h tank weapons that can be used by both DKs and Warriors (and at a pinch, Prot Paladins, if they don't need spell damage).

I thought they said that DKs would use special DK-only Runeblade weapons (of various types like 1h/2h swords, polearms, etc.)? Nobody would be able to share weapon drops with DK if that's true.

I'm pretty certain I remember reading somewhere that it was being considered to rework Death Knight lore around this, changing it instead that a Runeblade is basically any weapon a Death Knight chooses to inscribe with runes. Effectively explaining why Death Knights can use the same weapons as everyone else. It also mentioned that Blizzard was contemplating only allowing Death Knights to use bladed weapons (In other words, Daggers, Swords, Axes and Polearms).

Unfortunately I can't seem to find the source anywhere, it was most likely mentioned during a Blizzcon interview or something similar.

Either way involves a rewrite of some of the current Death Knight lore, according to the RPG Source books Runeblades are specifically crafted for each individual Death Knight; though it does mention Runeblades losing (most) of their power when no longer wielded by the Death Knight himself.

I'm curious about spell damage for death knights. I could see it being used for tanking, allowing them to share gear with prot paladins. However it would make their dps options rather limited, since Blizzard just went around removing all spell damage on dps plate and modifying ret paladins in the process. So where is the death knight dps gear going to come from? Will they get some sort of AP-spell damage talent?

As for weapons, I suspect that they will DW for tanking and PvE dps, and use 2handers for PvP.

Could just assume that Paladin tanking will be changed significantly in the next expansion as well. For the same reason they nerfed Druid tanking at the beginning of the expansion. Its silly overpowered and trivialize the game to a degree I don't think many find very fun. It would likely be a bad publicity move to nerf protection paladin AoE aggro and mechanics in general now with the tank shortage; but I'd think its a pretty safe bet it'll be changed with the expansion; and likely passed off as a buff instead.

Personally I find paladin tanking ok as it is now, maybe except from the overblown prot talent tree (warriors have somehow similar problem). AoE tanking is nice and certain trash packs (and some of the boss encounters) promote protection paladins.

But you can't forget that they are nowhere near as good as MTs as protection warriors (assuming same skill and gear level) and very bad as OTs (problems with aggro generation when not being boss main target). Add to that certain fights where being mana user and spell caster is an issue and it doesn't look all that bright... It's a nice - sure, sometimes warriors can feel bad when they see prot pally holding steady aggro on 3/4 of the Hyjal trash wave with massed AoE going at the same time, but those are NOT situations defining end game tanking.

Anyway, it's off topic.

As for DK tanking topic... Any kind of avoidance tank will be universally hated by healers. Spikes are the doom of tanks, and avoidance tanking with its 0-1 nature will sport very spiky damage. Additionally, 2 weapons mean low hit chance, so some sort of special aggro mechanics have to be introduced (aggro from weapon swings will be extremely unreliable).

Probably the most boring ways of sorting this out include copies of the other class abilities, but called differently. I can easily imagine self buff called "Armor of Darkness" that rises DKs armor by 40% (equivalent of the shield) and gives 50% chance to reduce incoming physical damage by the value equal to the maximal damage of the MH weapon (equivalent of the shield block, it would make slow MH weapon prefered). In fact, such min-block (I'm sure it can have better name, like riposte or blade turning) can be also an aggro move - each time you block with your weapon, you deal this weapon damage to the target (Holy Shield with swords). Boring, but will do the job.

Some more creative ways of dealing with issue might include powerful debuffs placed on the mobs (problem - multimob tanking) that "taunts" it to DK and reduces it's damage output against DK at the same time, some sort of aura that basically does the same (debuffs and rises aggro output, maybe also self heals) and such. I honestly hope that DK tanking system will be original, but viable - it really took a while to make protection paladin tanking right after all...

This is one of those situation where you just should forget raids though. It must be totally trivial for Blizzard to balance tanking for raids if they want to.

What is overpowered is paladins being able to pull a few heroic trash packs at once for AoE speed runs. A fairly large part of the game is still about small group content and 5-mans. Playing with a Paladin in those instances really isn't really fun (for me I know opinions differ). I think the main reason Paladins can appear to be fun for those instances is just because of the contrast to warrior tanking. There aren't that many paladin tanks and it might be refreshing to not have to be careful with AoE for once. But if they add more similar tanking mechanics they might as well take out 5-mans from the game entirely; or just do single mob pulls. That would be boring as hell.

The CC aspect that is needed for large pulls since it is difficult to hold aggro is what makes 5-mans a team game. Same with DPS kiting lose mobs. Its what makes the instances fun and challenging.

For the record I think Warrior multi-mob tanking is fine as it is; and love going to Shattred halls heroic even as an Arms warrior. But I do think Blizzard realise that the point of large group pulls in 5-mans is that mobs should break lose, should need kiting/cc, since thats what makes the pulls an affair for the whole group; and not just a tank/healer dragging the rest of the group through the places.

So I tried out felguard spec on my lock alt recently, and I noticed the FG was able to block despite wielding a 2h. Even if blizz doesn't think up of a new way to avoid crushings for DKs it seems there's already a mechanic in place to block with a weapon.

Oh, sorry. First time with a pet so it was new to me.

I must disagree with that part.

Heroic AoE tanking is domain of protection paladins that are overgeared compared to the content. Heroics are not expected to be done with badge tanking gear and Karazhan/Gruul epics (and PvP gladiator mace as tanking weapon), but with blue geared tank sporting occasional epic. Even less with better gear that sports twice as much aggro generation and significantly higher mitigation.

I did that both in blue gear and using badge/Kara gear. It's night and day difference - using blue gear I was barely uncrushable (actually, not always), damage blocked by shield was a joke, HP was quite low. AoE tanking of whole pulls was simply not an option - I was holding aggro, but my mitigation and HP buffer were simply not good enough to do that, at least in terms of speed run.

For intended level of gear, paladin tanking in heroics is similar to the one warriors have to resort to. Granted, it's less complex - but the same can be said about druid tanking really. His main advantage will be multimob high aggro pull ability, that makes healers/DPS safer in case of CC break - but his mitigation before Karazhan/badge gear is stupidly low and this is critical factor limiting AoE tanking vs. heroic opponents.

Anyway, it's sidetopic. I can agree with you that DKs tanking style should be unique and require at least some skills (or to put it blunt, clicking more then 2 buttons) from new players.

Don't forget that Blizzard is clearly allowing Paladins to keep their AoEpack niche, but at the same time, is shifting away from that as a focus. Block rating is missing from 90% of paladin 2.4 gear, and that is the primary defensive stat for the AoE pack. Instead they are introducing some expertise, a large amount of hit (spell mostly, some melee), equal armor and stamina to the comparable warrior gear, alot more defense/dodge/parry. All of this suggests that Blizzard will expect paladins to grab ZA gear for the AoE packs, but be completely viable single target tanks, and making the two different roles drastically different gear sets. Instead of currently, where AoE tanking gear sets are VERY similar to boss tanking sets, in terms of itemization. AoE packs in Hyjal, while initially fun, does wear on people more than most trash, and I think that Hyjal is probably the last raid instance with AoE tanking needed on such a large scale.

As for Deathknights, I hadn't really considered dual wielding for tanking, though Blades makes sense with the limited lore I know. A parry rate is the same whether you are dual wielding or 2-handed wielding. (assuming there are no talents boosting parry with one of the setups, which there very well could be). Dual wielding would smooth out the threat generation compared with 2 handed, however my gut still tells me that dual wielding, while visually unique, wouldn't really change the flavor of combat one bit.

None of the current tank options has spikey threat, where DPS and healing has both spikey and smooth in their DPS/Healing options. I am not advocating that we SHOULD have spike threat on a tank, merely that it is an option that Blizzard has yet to exercise. None of the current tanks also handle spell based attacks very well, with the warrior's spell reflect being the best, but not massive compared to overall spell mitigation. I see that tanking casters is also an option that Blizzard has yet to fill, and the Deathknight is a very logical choice to introduce this, for a variety of reasons:

1: The deathknight is more of a magical creation than the other classes, providing (Lore) more innate magical resistances
2: Rune enhanced gear may provide resistances beyond their normal desired effects
3: Melee is more brutal on casters due to lower armor, and the Deathknight appears to lend itself to a melee DPS rate higher than other tanks, while tanking
4: Avoidance is no where near as valuable when tanking a caster, so they would suffer much less from hit/miss damage intake levels, and if they don't have the massive armor of a bear to make up the difference like bears do, well armor doesn't count for much against casters anyway.

Just a few more thoughts. Glad everyone is chiming in with theory and speculation

Edit:
One of my friends pointed out an interesting speculation. Deathknights may be frost focused, rather than shadow. This would give synergy with frost mages, which are the only DPS class with no real synergy, rather than ANOTHER synergy with the over-weight shadow base. It could also point towards slowing target's attacks via frost as a viable mitigation tactic. ...and would also fit in with the lore and theme of the general frost trend of WotLK.

Well whatever they end up with, I sure hope I can tank with a 2h sword. They way I picture my DK is only with a 2h sword, I don't want to be dual wielding anything, I don't like how it looks. They could just add a "rune" spell thingie that you have to use on a weapon to make a DK viable weapon, and this rune thingie just slap some defense, or whatever stats is needed, on the sword. Maybe scale with ilvl. I'll wait until I test it, but dual wield looks like actually a good idea from a mechanic/logical point of view, I just don't want my DK to look like a fury war that pulled aggro and won't bother equipping his shield cause he's dpsing too hard.

Is "one-handed with nothing in the off-hand" another style that might work for DK tanking?

Some game systems have the concept that if you have a weapon in your main hand and keep your off-hand free, you have better balance, better ability to parry, et cetera. It's not a rare style for swashbucklers. Could DK have some buff to their avoidance stats when they have nothing at all, or maybe just an off-hand item, equipped in their off-hand?

I'm thinking that DW is more likely for tanking. It's pretty much given that a 2H build will be the prefered PvP setup, just due to instant attack mechanics, so making tanking prefer DW would give it more prominence in the class and help delineate the two playstyles in terms of itemization. Also, as mentioned above, no need to design tanking 2-handers for one spec of one class. It also makes for smoother agro generation, and having hits separated by less than 3.6 seconds is useful when trying to build agro on several targets.

The assumption of primarily shadow-based attacks is flawed. We know their resource system puts as much emphasis on frost as it does on shadow (technically "unholy"). Personally, I expect the tanking tree to be the frost tree, with blood as a possibility, but unholy is far less likely than either. Which means that a (tank-speced) DK will be using frost magic or physical abilities (although an off-spec off-tank DK may use their own spec abilities for tanking). I say frost is more likely because the mage frost tree already has tank-like abilities including absorb effects, armor buffs, and melee-speed reductions (possibly replacing thunderclap).

Depending on self-buffs and armor, DKs could end up being much like a druid with higher armor and stam, but no blocking. They could also act like a warrior with much higher avoidance and no shield, which is rather unlike any sort of tank currently in the game. In either case, the higher emphasis on avoidance makes them more susceptible to spikey damage, which might be counteracted with either higher hit points, or with anti-spike class abilities. Imagine, for example, that every time a DK gets hit he gets a self-buff. If he avoids an attack the buff goes away (uses it up for agro or something, I dunno), but if he notices a long string of hits and a corresponding high stack, he can blow the stack for a mini-evasion. Yes, it's an awkward solution, but the point is it's possible to place in class skills or talents to work around the spike damage issue with avoidance tanks.

A spellcasting spec of DKs is unlikely at this point, and the reason I say this is because retribution no longer uses casting stats. In thinning down itemization, blizzard would not make a plate-caster class unless there were two or more plate-caster classes. So they could either have made caster DKs and made spell damage more useful to ret, or made all three plate classes use physical stats for DPS. They seem to have taken the latter route. They could always revert all the paladin itemization changes they made, or flesh out and itemize shockadins when DKs come out, but at the moment I'm thinking their itemization will dovetail with what's already out there.

Because of their resource system (6 runes on linked cooldowns), most of their abilities that use runes will have to be relatively big. Like, equivalent to 20-40 rage, as a guess. This limits their range of cheap cantrips, like hamstring or pummel stand-ins, unless they also have weapon damage standard to justify the cost (I expect their intercept equivalent will be like Barbarian leap-attack in diablo II). I expect that most of their utility effects will either be free on cooldowns, or done via self-buffs and procs like weapon imbues, "armor"-type effects, self-only blessings, and so forth.
Alternatively, a rune could be more in the 10-15 rage-equivalence range, and most weapon-damage attacks and things of that scale will cost two runes.

I personally hope that the three talent/skill tress aren't the same as the runes, like Vengeance/Destruction/Absolution instead of Frost/Blood/Unholy, just so that the talent abilities can use multiple runes of different types for apolcalyptic effect. But that's not even speculation, that's just daydreaming.

Given what they're doing with ret itemization and the stated goals of having similar itemization for similar roles, I can't really imagine that DK's will have abilities which scale w/ +spell damage.

Paladin tanking gear has spell damage on it, though, so they could very easily rationalize spell damage coefficients on DK tanking abilities.

It's also possible, though, that they'll instead move in the direction of paladin tanking no longer benefitting from spell damage.

If they're making ret gear and DPS warrior gear have so much in common, what's the rationale for having tankadin gear and prot warrior gear be so divergent? Used to be +spelldamage plate was at least of some use to both protadins and retadins. Now it's just for protadins (and a few shockadins)? And then they're gonna make death knights use the tankadin gear instead of the warrior gear?

I think it's gonna end up like hunters. A bunch of stuff which used to depend on spell damage switches to depend on attack power instead. Makes a whole lot of itemization easier, if admittedly more boring.

I think death knight DPS is gonna be based on attack power, and the frost and shadow stuff is going to come in the area of special effects, not basic damage. Like, a physical damage attack with a cold-based snare or shadow-based mana drain, that kind of thing.

We'll see!

Apart from the set gear, there is already a lot of overlap between prot paladin and prot warrior gear. (At least when you look at boss loot tables, badge gear doesn't really count since they can make extremely specific itemization available there without affecting anyone else.)

I think it would be fine to have a prot paladin's threat generation stats come from weapon + set gear + (possibly) libram with maybe a little fill-in (rings, trinkets, etc.) coming through badges or craftables or whatever. Similarly a prot warriors threat generation could come from weapon + set, and the non-set drops could be generic stamina and avoidance pieces equally desired by both classes.

I think removing the spell damage -> threat component of paladin tanking would be unnecessary homogenization of the classes. Paladins essentially just become warriors with different names for their abilities at that point don't they?

In that case, I think Death Knights could go either way. Either they use melee DPS weapons for threat generation or they use spell damage weapons, in each case there is plenty of itemization overlap with other classes and the rest of the threat generation stats can come off of set pieces, badge gear, craftables, etc.

This is true. However, every animal in the game seems to also be able to parry, yet you will find that Druids in their animal forms cannot. The mechanics are there for the DK, that doesn't mean that it's going to happen for the DK, however.