Mmm, I would certainly hope that it wouldn't come to that. But already you can see the occasional thread on the official forums about 'Raiders get Legendaries, why shouldn't we get legendaries from PvP too?'. Given that it was that exact same cry of 'Raiders get epics, why shouldn't we get epics from PvP too?' that led to the current situation of everyone and their dog strutting around in S1 gear, one can't help but wonder just how far things will go.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe that the ability to acquire top-end gear by PvP is neccessary for the health of the game. But I think that Blizzard may have given too much weight to the masses of players crying 'we want epics', while not realising that the root of that desire was the fact that epic gear was so rare. By making epic gear that much more common, the gear-acquisition aspect of the game has been devalued, ultimately to the detriment of those whose concerns they were trying to address. GM/HWL gear was too hard to obtain. S1 honour gear is too easy to obtain. There's a healthy middle ground in there somewhere.
I recall reading an article some months ago. (I believe it may have been linked on Slashdot, but the search there has failed me.) The article's basic message was that gamers make poor game designers. By that the article meant that the ordinary players of games quite often believe they want a given thing, without realising that having that thing is often detrimental to the "bigger picture" of the game, and even immediately detrimental to the fun they themselves have within the game. The conclusion was that when designers solicit feedback on their game, they sometimes need to take that feedback with an extremely large block of salt. I believe that Blizzard needs more salt.
(And yes, that salt most definitely ought to be applied to this comment too.)
This is pretty much total conjecture though. The way Blizzard's done it, they didn't introduce S1 gear as "easy to get" until people were already killing Illidan. It isn't like they rolled it out when the doors opened for the first time. It was about a year before this happened.
How I see it... Blizzard doesn't look at gear progression as a static thing anymore. They open up new content for folks, and it is their playground for a couple of months. However, as time passes and the people who have a harder time getting through that content get frustrated, so Blizzard nerfs it, provides other gear elsewhere, etc. and allow more people to see that content.
I'm not so sure they *want* you to have to farm Gruul and Magtheridon for weeks, before heading into SSC and TK, and then farm those instances for months before heading into BT and Hyjal. That's the EQ model, and I don't believe it is WoW's model (any more). Not a year later, anyway. They want you to go in, try it out, have some fun and learn the encounter, and then move on.
The design decision was made back when TBC was being built - they knew they were going to be working on another expansion after BC, and they figured they would probably do another gear reset, so there was no reason to force people onto a treadmill similar to vanilla WoW for gear (MC > BWL > AQ > Naxx). Since there know it will get reset again, they might as well make it easier for everyone near the end of the current content's lifespan.
Second the motion to recolor based on source. Difficulty would be impossible to keep reliable as that changes from week to week. Besides, difficulty is relative to who's trying to get it. Hell, look at arena's now. That means S3 gear should be 'blue' to lock/druid teaams but artifact for war/paladin teams.
I haven't won a single arena game (skipped most of S2), spent most of my AV's killing rams to try to get riders for the 45 troll faction or so it'd be worth while clearing trash in Kara/SSC/BT on my main. Clearly hard to get.
Source is simple. Green for world drops/quests, blue for 5-man stuff, purple for raids/red for pvp, orange for pve legendaries, yellow for pvp 'legendaries' like the arena mount.
Simple and clear.
Anyways...
Speaking of 'catering to gamers,' TBC failed to deliver on a lot of things. We were talking about it over on fohguild, but some examples were how we wanted dungeons that could be completed in steps or on shorter time blocks. Instead of dungeons with save points and the like, we got rail shooters. Remember all the hints about how we wouldn't kill Illidan, merely get in his way? Yet every week there he is....a corpse.
Blizzard has a pretty good track record when it comes to listening to the playerbase, determining what it is that we actually want, and then screwing it up. Hi2u lfg interface.
But things like linked flight paths and being able to instantly transfer items between characters on the same account via mail leave me with hope for the future I suppose.
I like the idea of redoing the item colour scheme to show real worth, but I'm not sure it's necessary. The way things are now, you see a guy in mostly greens and you know he's a new 70, mostly blues and you know he's working on instances and gearing, mostly purples and you know he's spent a bit of time on his character. Full epics is like the baseline for a serious entry-level raider or pvper, and in that respect I think the TBC gearing has been a success. Once you hit full epics you're working on a few specific stats: +damage, AP, hit, crit, resil etc. If I say I'm a mage with full epics it doesn't mean much, but saying I have 1050 damage and hitcapped gives me a spot along pve content, and allows me to be ranked easily with other mages of greater or lesser gear. I didn't do a lot of raiding before TBC, but IIRC you weren't ranking people by a few simple stats, it was more he's full T1 and he's got 3pc T2, and there wasn't much to differentiate other than that.
Epics have lost their "specialness", but I'm not sure that's a bad thing either. I bet a lot of people can remember that time the new recruit says "Can I come Kara? I need some purples." By setting full epics as the baseline you avoid this, since this is quite possible without going anywhere near Kara. Discouraging for the epic whores, but who cares about them?
I do think there should be a greater difference between pve and pvp gear though. I liked the original vanilla way, dark and pointy for HW, compared to light and fruity pve sets. A recolour and a whack of resil isn't enough.
Where I would think it would be a good idea to color code based on the source of gear, I fear it would just create a lot of whining among the masses. There is really no reason to color code the different level of population classes in the game. The color of the text has nothing to do with my pride of being able to output a respectable level of DPS/TPS/HPS. It shouldn't matter to you either. However many people like the illusion that their purple gear is just like to guys clearing BT/MH every day.
The only time I have a problem is when I go into an AV and get a whisper: "Why do your season 3 shoulders not have any resilience?"
If the models for pvp and pve sets were different again I would be more than happy with the current color scheme of the names.
I've had "Hey, where'd you get a Season 3 Tanking set?" whispers. Anyway I do agree, just put different models on PvE and PvP sets again and that's all the differentation between the two we need. And I'm sure both PvEers and PvPers would be happy to be more distinctive.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
One thing that I would be for is to make the item level available in game and then divorcing the item quality from the stat budget. One thing that plagued the early Kara itemization is that Blizzard gave the item developers their stat budget for various areas, and apparently people didn't bother to look to see if things were actually upgrades as one progressed. While many of the Netherstorm greens were nerfed (esp Jr Tech 3rd grade plate bracers), [Mama's Insurance] and a few others are absolutely amazing compared to blues (and some purples, compare [Xavian Stiletto]) available in level 70 dungeons, although I admit the weapon skill change made the above gun better than it originally was (it was made into crit rating). The (regular!) Botanica leather healing shoulders that were better than ones in Kara is the kind of item I hope to never see, and will definitely not see if they don't bother having a ilvl150 blue be worse than an ilvl150 purple just because of the color.
There was a time when the item level was closely related to the required level and as such it made sense that the items of rarer quality were better, but now the item level is just a number with absolutely no necessary relation to the required level. While it might lead morons to automatically want items that are of higher item level, I've seen the same thing with regard to armor (an equivalent stat) for non-tanks, and I'm sure there are plenty of folks that will take a new item that has only relevant stats as they're leveling just because it requires a higher level irrespective of whether its actually better. Thus, I don't really see a problem with exposing item level and having itemization rely solely on that number. By doing that, it allows Blizzard to not have to worry about coloring all pvp items past the "blues" as purples and gives them the opportunity to recolor items as they become "less rare".
In 2.3 they removed all green drops from 5-man bosses (except Dire Maul I think, or did they buff those?), so there definitely is already a sense that easy quests give greens, long quest chains normally involving a group give blues, 5-man dungeons give blues, raids (and raid quests) and heroics give purples. Mobs drop random greens all the time, random blues every once in a while, and random purples extremely rarely. That's the sense that color denotes rarity; if Blizzard truly wants color to only denote that, they need to stop treating it as automatically upgrading the item budget for a given item level.
Where I would think it would be a good idea to color code based on the source of gear, I fear it would just create a lot of whining among the masses. There is really no reason to color code the different level of population classes in the game. The color of the text has nothing to do with my pride of being able to output a respectable level of DPS/TPS/HPS. It shouldn't matter to you either. However many people like the illusion that their purple gear is just like to guys clearing BT/MH every day.
Let everyone be happy.
If the color of the text has no effect on you, then you (and everybody else) should have no problem changing the color codes.
Originally Posted by glowacks
In 2.3 they removed all green drops from 5-man bosses (except Dire Maul I think, or did they buff those?), so there definitely is already a sense that easy quests give greens, long quest chains normally involving a group give blues, 5-man dungeons give blues, raids (and raid quests) and heroics give purples. Mobs drop random greens all the time, random blues every once in a while, and random purples extremely rarely. That's the sense that color denotes rarity; if Blizzard truly wants color to only denote that, they need to stop treating it as automatically upgrading the item budget for a given item level.
This is really the sore spot for me. There's no clear definition of "epic gear" anymore. Does the color define an item's rarity or in terms of itemization? Clearly neither is correct. There are greens and blues that are better than epics (see: people using the [Hourglass of the Unraveller] well into SSC/TK, feral druids using the [Badge of Tenacity]), so epics cannot be defined by ilevel anymore. And epics cannot be defined by rarity anymore because of Arena. I see people with 4/5 Vengeful around all the time AFKing in Ironforge, they're in full epics, yet they're obviously unskilled since they still have Merciless weapons and shoulders.
IMO, what I would like to see is that PvP earned gear is a different color, or that PvP gear is not allowed in PvE, and vice versa.
Or, I'd like to see a special buff on Arena gear saying "Increases AP/Spell Damage/Healing/etc by X% when fighting Humanoids". This way, Arena gear is epic level when fighting other players or PvE Humanoid mobs, but becomes blue/green quality (statwise) when fighting other types of mobs in PvE.
IMO, what I would like to see is that PvP earned gear is a different color, or that PvP gear is not allowed in PvE, and vice versa.
Or, I'd like to see a special buff on Arena gear saying "Increases AP/Spell Damage/Healing/etc by X% when fighting Humanoids". This way, Arena gear is epic level when fighting other players or PvE Humanoid mobs, but becomes blue/green quality (statwise) when fighting other types of mobs in PvE.
I'm glad Blizzard is designing their game instead of you, because it's clear that you have no idea why people play this game.
I also hope that Blizzard releases some substantive WotLK information relatively soon, so we can put this sordid conversation behind us!
Honestly, with regard to gearing, they could continue to make PVP gear less good in PVE -- much of it is already bad -- and make PVE gear continue not to work (ugh resilience continues or stamina stacking becomes its replacement) and really who cares? Everyone knows how arena gear is obtained. And everyone knows that the guy with Season 3 weapons is better than me. Things are not awfully broken right now. Slightly broken on the margins? Yes. Terribly broken? Hardly.
The value of color-coded loot became useless as a mechanism with BC's method of "planned obsolescence" approach to content, with both PvE and PvP receiving nerfs once the 'cutting edge' populations of each group had used the content.
At this point it's much more of an old artifact of Vanilla WoW and release-era BC than an even partially-functioning system that could be retrofitted in WOTLK.
Also, for the cutting-edge Raiders complaining about having to share the same armor textures with 10-loss-a-week players, Blizzard has hinted about making Rating requirements for gear more significant in S4, possibly attempting to mirror the PvE model of having the majority of mid-range players be using the previous content's model.
That is, when mid-range raiders are in Tier 6 and high-end raiders are in Sunwell models, mid-range Arena'ers (those under X rating) would be limited to buying reduced-cost s3 gear, while you'd need to break X rating to begin getting into Arena Sunwell models like the Gloves. This is speculation, but this might be something to look at being further cemented in WOTLK.
That is, when mid-range raiders are in Tier 6 and high-end raiders are in Sunwell models, mid-range Arena'ers (those under X rating) would be limited to buying reduced-cost s3 gear, while you'd need to break X rating to begin getting into Arena Sunwell models like the Gloves. This is speculation, but this might be something to look at being further cemented in WOTLK.
The problem with this approach has already been discussed in some other thread: nobody wants to wait an extra season to get any gear at all, so to speak. Arena is popular in large part because even at 1300 rating, there's a carrot. It might a shriveled, anemic distant cousin of a carrot, but it's still a carrot. The rating on weapons and shoulders are there to reduce PvP weapons in PvE, and to give high-end arena players a 'distinct' look. The problem is that, well, vengeful hat and t6 hat are the same thing (same with robes, chestpieces are less distinctive), but you can't restrict every piece from an already relatively small range of arena items just so high-end arena players can have a 'distinct' look. The problem in 2.0 (pre-BC) was that there was nothing to distinguish good, competitive premades from PuG-rollers or AV afkers. Now, personal rating serves that goal, but not only is there nothing to distinguish good PvPers from good PvEers, but the 1300-rated player can have much of the look of either of the above. As has been said numerous times, different armor models for PvP and PvE combined with some restrictions on personal rating - keep shoulders and weapon, add, say, 1500 to helm or chest. 1500 is relatively easy to achieve and doesn't give the average player the unattainable goal of 1850 or 2000 - it's a lot easier to be sitting at 1400 and think 'well, if we do just a little better, we can get that' than it is to think 'so, if I spend hours practicing, read guides, watch movies, reroll/respec if my class is suboptimal, maybe I can get that item'.
We currently don't have any plans to make big changes to any class before Wrath of the Lich King.
The most obvious thing to read into this is we won't be seeing talents "pre-released" as they were before TBC. Reading a little more liberally into it, you might guess that if they're willing to make a statement that they won't do this or that before WotLK, then that would suggest that WotLK is in a rather advanced stage, and we can possibly expect it sooner than December 08.
On the other hand, this is a CM posting, so it's fair to be a little incredulous. And plans change.
The most obvious thing to read into this is we won't be seeing talents "pre-released" as they were before TBC. Reading a little more liberally into it, you might guess that if they're willing to make a statement that they won't do this or that before WotLK, then that would suggest that WotLK is in a rather advanced stage, and we can possibly expect it sooner than December 08.
On the other hand, this is a CM posting, so it's fair to be a little incredulous. And plans change.
I think it makes sense, they will fix bugs with the classes but I doubt we will see any balance changes. It could also potentially mean that Season 4 will be opened with WoLTK's release (or a few weeks after that) since I would think they would like to get some balance changes in there before Season 4.
But an expansion gives them much more flexibility in changing things around with new talent points to play with so something like making daggers viable again for Rogues would definitely be an expansion related project.
The most obvious thing to read into this is we won't be seeing talents "pre-released" as they were before TBC. Reading a little more liberally into it, you might guess that if they're willing to make a statement that they won't do this or that before WotLK, then that would suggest that WotLK is in a rather advanced stage, and we can possibly expect it sooner than December 08.
On the other hand, this is a CM posting, so it's fair to be a little incredulous. And plans change.
I doubt that that quote includes releasing the talent tiers.
The Before the Storm (?) patch which included 41 point talents was not released early because Blizz wanted us to be able to play with Crusader Strike and Silencing Shot a couple of months early.
Rather, it was released along with all the TBC content (albeit unlocked) in order to make the actual launch of TBC that much smoother. Ever notice how relatively painless the TBC launch was? That's because all the data was already sitting in our hard drives and all the teething problems were mostly sorted out weeks earlier.
Given the relative success of that "pre-release" strategy (aside from the whole Horde/Alliance getting Paladin/Shaman drops problem), I would think that Blizz would adopt it again for WOTLK.
Speaking of 'catering to gamers,' TBC failed to deliver on a lot of things. We were talking about it over on fohguild, but some examples were how we wanted dungeons that could be completed in steps or on shorter time blocks. Instead of dungeons with save points and the like, we got rail shooters.
I really like this phrasing. Rail shooter perfectly covers the 5 man dungeons in TBC.
I really like this phrasing. Rail shooter perfectly covers the 5 man dungeons in TBC.
I agree. I'm hoping this is something they're going to move away from at least a little bit, but they haven't really commented on it one way or another. They have spoken in favor of winged dungeons, so that really suggests they're going to stick with the ultra-linear hallway format.
Source is simple. Green for world drops/quests, blue for 5-man stuff, purple for raids/red for pvp, orange for pve legendaries, yellow for pvp 'legendaries' like the arena mount.
This except add 10 mans for the blue zone, 10 mans although still a raid should not reward people with purples. High quality blues just like UBRS. When has kara ever needed a full guild roster or a extreme amount of coordination to complete? This from the start would have easily made epics "worth" more.
This except add 10 mans for the blue zone, 10 mans although still a raid should not reward people with purples. High quality blues just like UBRS. When has kara ever needed a full guild roster or a extreme amount of coordination to complete? This from the start would have easily made epics "worth" more.
It's significantly more difficult than UBRS, and Zul'Aman is more difficult than Kara. This idea doesn't make sense, especially given that Blizzard has suggested they're going to be pushing 10-mans even further in WotLK. This is something you're just going to have to come to terms with.
On the subject of the difference between item color: Does the color of the item determine its stat allocation, or is that determined only by item level?
On the subject of the difference between item color: Does the color of the item determine its stat allocation, or is that determined only by item level?
On the subject of the difference between item color: Does the color of the item determine its stat allocation, or is that determined only by item level?
All items get a Quality modifier, along with other modifiers such as Slot Modifier (which is why you'll never find bracers with as much stats as legs for example, unless the bracers are seriously higher ilevel).
The Quality modifier says how much of the ilevel you are allowed to used. Epics has a better modifier than blues, which has a better modifier than greens, which has a better modifier than white, which has a better modifier than gray. Better in this case means that more of the items points can be used.
Also the term "more stats" is a bit odd to use. A common misconception seems to be that you just add up all stats and see which has the more, which is not true. You add them up in a special way. All stats has a cost associated with them, and this is multiplied to the amount of the stat, and taken to the 1.5 power. All these are then added up and taken to the 1/15 power. This also has the effect that the more of a stat you're adding, the more expensive each point is going to be.
The "one high stat is expensive" model can be seen very clearly on random green items. Take a look at this item for example:
[Consortium Robe] ...of Intellect (+50 Intellect) vs ...of the Owl (+33 Intellect, +33 Spirit)
"+50 Intellect" is the same as "+33 Intellect and +33 Spirit". Clearly 50/2 is not 33, so how can two stats get two higher values than a single stat? Because the total cost of any stat is not fixed, it depends on how much else of the same stat is on the item already. Adding one point of Intellect to an item that has 49 already is much more expensive than adding one point of Intellect to the same item if it has 24 Intellect already, which is why they are able to lower the Int on the of the Owl piece by 22 and convert it to 33 spirit. Even though all basic stats (except stamina on TBC items) have the same cost.
Anyway, the point is that the "colour" only reflects a modifier. If you compare two items of the same slot, but one is epic and one is blue. Then the epic will have more points to spend on stats than the blue. It doesn't however mean that the purple will be better all the time. It's still a question of how they spent those points.
At the "Rail Shooter" people, what is it exactly that you want from dungeons? I for one don't want to see a return to the sprawling monstrosity that is Blackrock Depths. Is it just a complaint because you can't choose a path or which order to go in? BRD had so many paths I actually spent time in a cleared instance once just working out where everything was and how to get to various places from somewhere. That sort of dungeon is a relic of an inferior system, as is its spanning of a large level gap (like 6-7 levels at first).
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Blackrock deapth was fun though. Its nice with the option to explore. But they could very well have done it differently. Perhaps have the whole mountain with most of BRD and even some of UBRS/LBRS be non instanced. So there is the big city to explore; possibly make the area elite with group quests; but have the bosses in smaller instanced parts.
BRD was fun to explore but when gathering a group for it its not good if you end up with everyone having different quests and the place is too big to realistically do everything in one go.
04/07/08, 1:57 PM
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