Earthhoof

On that same score, though occasionally irritating/deadly, the Scourge push as you clear Live-side Stratholme gives the place a really nice feel. It's a terribly simple touch -- toss a few mobs at the rear as you clear packs from the front -- but I've always felt that it makes clearing out the fortress a lot more invigorating. It at least resembles a place alive.

There are a few 5-mans in TBC that really get this right. Shattered Halls, despite its linearity, feels like you're invading a stronghold while they array all the troops they have to stop you (I remember my first time in there, back when, thinking, "You want us to pull how many?"). Blood Furnace felt like a really nice "teaser" of future content, gave you some notion of what the heck they were doing in Hellfire, and felt relevant. I wish their material tying The Mechanaar into the rest of Netherstorm were even stronger, because that's really where things are going on, where the whole plan that culminates in reigniting the Sunwell is being carried out.

The instance I found most disappointing was Shadow Labyrinth -- there's so much good material there. The Shadow Council, Murmur ... and then you spend a whole bunch of the instance doing relatively pointless stuff. You fight some Shadow Council dudes, kill a demon that they are apparently holding captive, fight an ogre who seems to be preparing to deliver a lecture, and then, somewhere after that, things start to pick up. You hit Vorpil (okay, someone important), and the run-up to Murmur is GREAT. I would have loved to see this instance take place as more of a battleground - get some of those NPCs fighting Shadow Council dudes outside the portal inside, bringing up the rear or just fighting spawning guys throughout. Have the defenses against Murmur extend further back into the instance, so you're seeing the titanic struggle to contain or banish this living catastrophe they've summoned.

I have high hopes for what Uldum could be. Something has clearly broken out, and maybe some things have broken in. I'd love to see it as a winged 5-man or 10-man, with a wing for (say) the Twilight's Hand invaders seeking to aid their dark masters, a wing populated by elementals, demons and other dark things they've accidentally stirred-up Moria-style, and a wing for the Earthen and automated security constructs, trying to defend the innermost sanctum of Titan lore.

The 5-man instances in TBC perfected the play of small group instances (compared to 90% of vanilla 5-mans, where the number of bosses you actually had to think about were in the majority), and I think with WotLK I'd like to think they're going to be making things ever more relevant.

 

Starfire

There was. Do DM North Tribute, get the buff, then do DM West. And if you wanted to exploit, use the Tribute buffs and then reset DM North and kill them all.

That said, I think Blackrock Mouintains as a whole was epic. It had everything. Hell, I think Blackrock Mountains as a whole was probably better than Outlands sans Black Temple.

You had Blackrock Spires, Molten Core, Blackrock Depths and Blackwing Lair. You had TWO zones with quests leading up to the lore (Searing Gorge and Burning Steppes). Blackrock Depth was an epic dungeon sprawl with lots of sub-zones. It was an underground fortress, worthy of being the home of the Dark Iron Dwarves. It had a plethora of quests. That one instance alone probably had more quests than Auchindoun as a whole. On top of that, the encounters were varied, like the arena and of course the Dungeon-2 arena was rather epic. The whole Vaelastrasz line in Blackrock Spire was very cool as well leading up to Vaelastrasz in Blackwing Lair. Not to mention the "summoning" of Vaelastrasz during Rend. You had epic lore characters too, Rend Darkhand? Of course Nefarian, and the lore built up on Vaelastraz. Hell, even had a quest to rescue a princess.

Blackrock Mountains as a whole is just magnificent. I'd love to see the Nerubian area designed like that in Wotlk.

 

Sillia

That much is easy. Balnazzar drops half of a key. Baron drops half of a key. The key has a 2(/4/6/X) hour limited lifespan. Go into third instance portal at (other location), inside of which is a locked door that requires the key. Unlock the door with the key, and it's good till a reset.

 

mmartinx

I'd like a true 3d dungeon like LBRS. Basically present the group with this huge dungeon with multiple paths, but take advantage of 1 way paths through jumping down into certain areas. I'd like to have control over the speed of the run beyond how efficiently my group deals with packs of mobs. Allowing the user to pick and tune a path that works best for their group based on what bosses would add that element of strategy I missed from pre-tbc instances where now it's just clear everything in the room, rinse, repeat.

 

Denogran

Why does it have to be instanced? I haven't done much exploring since I've hit 60, it's just lost its charm on me (I blame the game's popularity and sites like WowInsider and mmochampion for making the neat little easter eggs overexposed), but I remember just cruising around on foot and on horse back in the day and enjoying that. Why does it have to even be killing? One of my favorite parts of the old lands was the Twin Colossals and doing the parachute jump quest( that and jumping off the damn in Loch Modan, or the cliffs going into Un'Goro - I liked jumping...).

I guess I wouldn't even really care if Blizzard made an instanced, rambling dungeon for whatever part of the population would enjoy such a thing. But I would care if they made those bosses drop any sort of meaningful or interesting loot, such that they're "required." I mean imagine if Shadow Labs was a sprawling, confusing dungeon in the manner of BRD or Maraudan. And imagine the last boss dropped your set gloves, a dagger for rogues and nothing else. How painful would that be to get a group for? Or even imagine that same sprawling dungeon was needed for Kara attunement. And you need to get your third 70 attuned, which means you're in for at least 3 hours of trawling through a dungeon you've done many times before, are not particularly interested in exploring, and no one else wants to tank/heal for you.

And I don't think BRD was that popular, at least on my server, even back in the day (forget about trying to pug a group now). I could always get a group for UBRS, Scholo, Strat( either side, but never both), but BRD was a pain in the ass, even at 60. All of these are very linear dungeons. Scholo has the little side rooms to clear bosses in, and live Strat had the cannon-boss, but UBRS was as straight as your could get and Undead strat was always the same path as well. That's a great segment of time for me. I mean what's the real difference between Shadow Labs and Stratholm? The one different direction in which you could clear around if you were so inclined? LBRS had all of a jump down to a big rock separating the two ways in which you could finish it. I just don't think a large portion of the population wants confusing, long dungeons. I love that I can get in a group now, go do a heroic SH, and be done in less than an hour.

I think your definition of meaningful content is different than mine. I'm far more into the game aspect than the RP aspect personally, and at least with the people I interact with, I don't seem to be a huge outlier in that regard. If the RP was important, I'd never run an instance more than once. Because if you've already killed somebody, how compelling is the story when you come back to re-kill them for the 10th time? My suspension of disbelief only takes me so far.

TL;DR: I really think most of you are looking at the pre-TBC dungeons with some pretty rosy-tinted glasses. What's the big difference between 2 instances right next to each other and for all intents and purposes 2 separate runs in one big instance (see strat, BRS)? How are linear dungeons like SL and SH so different from places like UBRS and UD strat? Honestly, I think Blizzard listened to the concerns over BRD, UBRS, and Strat and gave us quicker, less confusing, and decently entertaining dungeons that are infinitely less painful to find groups for, much less actually run a PuG. Going back in design so that people can wander more - I would personally find that to be immensly frustrating.

 

Anedris

Of course BRD was unpopular! It was horrible for people who didn't know their way around. Absolutely terrible! I would never want to PuG it in a thousand years.

It became fun, however, when you did know it inside out and knew where to jump off to skip to Incendius, the three (?) different ways to get out of the bar, how to render the spectators above the arena neutral, how to reach Loregrain, how to lava hop the MC attunement quest, and so forth. Is it good instance design? On balance, probably not - it's extremely unfriendly to the casual player that makes up most of Blizzard's subscription. I very much enjoyed it however.

 

Doriangray

You forgot Jandice Barov in Scholomance, but that's OK, most people seem to like to forget about her.
Strat had several ways to go on undead side, but most people were probably like me and decided for one way once and hen always took it.

What it really comes down to, I think, might be less about the fact that the dungeon is really huge and presents a lot, and can occupy you for hours on end on a massive dungeon sprawl. That is definitely a nice thing, and I miss at least one instance like that in TBC. But it might be more about the illusion of size and aliveness. Even when you only ran one side of Strat, while you were traversing the streets, you saw all these undead in the background that stood or patroled there, all the houses along streets that you didn't go into. But they were there, they formed a background to everything. What annoys many people in TBC instances seems to be the fact that most dungeons are just series of cramped hallways with a few larger rooms in between. Many instances feel claustrophobic and flat - also on a very literal level. Which leads me to my second point:

This was the most awesome thing about BRS that I liked. No matter that you generally decided to run LBRS or UBRS beforehand (if only because you needed a larger group for upper than for lower), you first entered a massive instance, and then worked your way down, or up and up and up. It was just awesome in my opinion how you fought your way up from the entrance to Drakkisath through winding hallways and corridor, and you often knew "Now I'm standing right about the spot we killed that boss 15 minutes ago." Balconies that allowed you to look around and down into the lower part, and finally the bridge high over the whole instance, which literally could give you vertigo just looking down (OK, the last part might be exaggerating a bit).

And then there was the portal to BWL. And when you traversed the instance in your mind, from entering Blackrock Mountain up to Nef's balcony room and the majestic view over no less than two areas (yes, of course they were not the real areas, but just background images, but at this height you wouldn't have been able to make out details anyway), you would notice that the designers didn't fool you, but the balcony faced the right side.

None of the BC instances give you a feeling that they are really embedded in the surrounding areas, the maps are all strange, especially for the Auchindon instances. And of course, even Underbog and Ramparts feel flat, and that's about as big and 3d as it gets in BC.

 

crimsonsentinel

Well for one thing, Blizzard may say that they made dungeons multiple winged and sectioned off because of their popularity, but they're also much less complex and easier to make. I'm sure production time carries a lot of weight when deciding what not to put in the game.

 

Kumar

Basicllay, pre TBC the instances that people like are areas of the game that could actually stand out on their own, without an instance portal. With the expansion, that feeling has gone away. The Instances seem disconnected from what was outside. Add to that the Lore associated with places like Strat, BRD compared to the Lore associated with SL or MT, the Pre-TBC instances are a lot more fun.

But with TBC I think instance runs were made for rep grinding and gear, pre-TBC that was not the case. You ran instances because you had quests and you actually wanted to see Strat, Scholo and BRD. And the run could take 3-4 hours and you the instances at times seem alive. Such an instance design would not be possible if we continue with instances being the main way to grind rep and when we have to run an instance multiple times to get geared up.

 

Starfire

Thats not true. No one says all instances must be of one type. Take a look at the 3 TK instances, all 3 are designed for level 70s, there's no reason why all 3 should be the same. One of those could of been the epic adventure BRD was. Shadow Labyrinth, as mentioned by above posters, is a good example of a candidate that could of been much more.

Auchindoun feels boring, it feels out of place... a bunch of divisions off to their own little thing and not caring about the others?

Blackrock Mountain had the war between Ragnaros and Nefarion for control of the mountain. In between this you had the Red Dragonflight trying to infiltrate/combat the Black Dragonflight. You had the Black Dragonflight kidnapping members of the Blue Dragonflight -and- tricking people to go into Blackrock Depths (Bael'gar).

And hell, after further reflection... you have more than just 2 areas of lore leading up to Blackrock Mountains.

Tanaris -> Feralas -> Zul'Farrak -> Sunken Temple -> Hinterlands -> Blackrock Spires line for troll quests.

You have Flame Ambassadors in Badlands and I believe there is also 1 or 2 in Kalmindor.

For humans, you've been dealing with the Orcs since Redridge.

You have the compeletly epic Onyxia quest line and Horde had the Rend quest line too.

 

PSGarak

I think Dire Maul is the closest yet to my idea of a perfect instance design. The instances are more connected than simply having instance portals physically close to each other, which is the problem with Auchindoun, while still being cleanly separable, which was the problem with BRD. Moreover, the internal path of the dungeon has a nice balance of non-linearity. There are obvious best paths in each of the places (especially north, which was an interesting gimmick), but sub-optimal full-clears aren't extraordinarily longer. Going from two hours per wing on my first time in to thirty minute farm clears (in dungeon gear at the time) is a reasonable gap. And on a personal note, the optimality was rewarding to discover, although that's probably because it's the only dungeon where the first time I went there no one in the group had seen it before.

The main thing it's missing is integration with the surrounding world, especially the immediately surrounding world (ferelas). While it meant I had to run them for quests a stupid number of times, I miss having twenty-odd quests per dungeon instead of three, especially as culminations of quest lines from nearby areas. BRS isn't the only one that did this; scholo and strat did it fairly well too. My main beef with those few was that you actually had to go in and out of the dungeon several times, for the same quest line. As if you would stop clearing a dungeon after you killed the boss you had a quest for.

In many respects TBC was a reaction to vanilla WoW, and in many respects they overshot (BRD to rail shooters). I hope they learn from both pre- and post-TBC mistakes when constructing WLK.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Nezralix

I really wonder how Blizzard feels about the Shadow Council. They clearly spent some time trying to make them recognizable, but I don't really think they succeeded at that.

 

Vaccine

They were a bit underdeveloped but I did like the Murmur story. The murmur room itself is pretty unique, you get there as the rest of the Shadow Council's minions are battling Murmur who has escaped his restraints. Very cool.

My problem with Auchindon is that all 4 instances are unrelated to each other.

Shadow lab is as said a shadow council instance, probably the best of the 4. Comments above on how cool Murmur is, but also the other bosss fights are all great. First fight the warlocks are keeping him banished, when you kill them all you unleash the demon which you then have to destroy before it can escape. The second boss fight is somewhat lacking in any story but each boss can't have a full story. He is clearly some high ranking member of the council and the fight itself is pretty cool and unique (if soul destroying for bad pugs). The third boss is again a high ranking warlock and another fairly unique fight.

It goes downhill from there. Next best is the Crypts. Someone (burning legion given the first boss is one of their demons?) have invaded the crypts and are performing necromancy on the buried Dranei. Okay instance, needs another boss and the first fight could be crippling on pugs. Small story really but It is still believable that they are trying to raise the dead to aid them. As Auchindoun is pretty much a burial city it makes sense.

Setthekk halls is pretty bad. These random Arakkoa just decided they wanted to live in a dark dingy crypt? Setthek halls should have been introduced in the Skettis expansion and been up in Skettis or at least opened up the current one from a Skettis questline.

Mana Tombs is the worst. Some petty rival Ethereals squabbling over something. Of course we go in and slay one for cash. Very noble. No real explanation about either of the first two bosses. We get to know how they got there, the explosion that destroyed Auchindoun when Murmur broke free opened a rift that allowed Ethereals entry to Outlands. But the best I could find on what they were doing there was trying to find something to help them fight the Burning Legion which seems pretty cool to me, and at worst they are robbing the crypts, detestable but on the grand scale of things, with all the troubles in outlands, a few petty thieves robbing graves and relics is way down my list of priorities.


The other two instance hubs manage much better continuity. Tempest Keep is great and the lore is rich there, but I agree with the previous comment that its not really linked to Netherstorm much. The instances are great, the Arcatraz is fantastic how the Old Gods or just the last boss have corrupted the keeper and things are now escaping, The mechanar sees a slightly anticlimactic end to the Pathleon story, a shame as he was my faveourite part of lore in the expansion, one of Kael'thas head honchos roughly following your progression through Outlands (okay two spots but stil lbetter than anything like it). Botanica was the only lacking one, I'm always a bit confused when the last instance boss is a big monster that isn't really linked to the dungeon/story (Warpsplinter, Quagmirrian, Black Stalker).

Coilfang has a lot of continuity but bad story. The use of Lady Vashj is criminal, one of the most recognisible characters form WC3 has one line to try and explain the entire hub of SSC before dieing. Much better story was needed here. That said, there is a continuity that Auchindoun lacked. The slave pens are where the slave dranei work, mining or whatever it is slaves do. The Underbog is presumably some sort of breeding facility for the various creatures under Vashj's command, its full of spore bats and the like. Steamvaults is something to do with the draining of Outland's water supply and the Mekgineer is obviously managing the various machines to accomplish that. SSC is Vashj's base and where her main forces are marshalled.

I think Auchindoun could have done with quests linking the instances to each other. The 4 wings could have been at the far corners of Outland for how releated they are.

Diremaul is a good one, at least the link between West and North is. They are actually even the same instance with two portals, though rarely taken as such. But if you choose you can do the north instance, get the tribute and become ogre king, get the quest and enter West. Fight through there, kill the bosses, then back into the library to battle the prince. Was fun but wasn't nessecary to do it all at once.

 

ildon

The core gameplay of Stratholme (after they took out the race element from the undead side, at least) is still two linear rail dungeons. They just happen to share one small common area (that 99% of players skipped) with one boss, and a summonable optional boss that basically amounted to an exercise in mind numbingly unrewarding and unchallenging trash clearing. Is a little area in the middle that looks exactly like the rest of the dungeon and doubles your trash clear really all it takes to make a dungeon seem "sprawling" instead of a "rail shooter"?

 

Fagrim

I think we should separate two fundamentally different issues (not touching the subject of raid progression which is a topic in itself for TBC):

1) Instance design in terms of lay-out and size, boss mechanics, trash amounts and abilities etc
2) Instance ambiance and links to surroundings, the zone, lore and quests up to that point etc

My opinion is that overall TBC delivered on 1) (Blizz obviously learned alot from Vanilla WoW), but delivered surprisingly short on 2). After an instance 1+2 both contribute to the satisfaction and I almost always felt a meh feeling in TBC (apart from Hellfire instances) due to the lack of 2). What I really find surprising is that 2) is what has made Blizzard stand out as a Company in the past so the short-fall (for me) really came out of nowhere.

 

• Chicken

I think what people find lacking in some of the TBC instances isn't so much the fact that most of them are basically a large hallway filled with mobs, but the fact that they also feel like they're large hallways full of mobs. A lot of the instances lack the little details that make the difference between whether you feel like you're actually infiltrating a stronghold or just going through a long corridor to the next big guy that drops loot you want.

The Deadmines are typically remembered well by people as a good instance, that's in part nostalgia since for a lot of people it was the first instance they ever did, but on the other hand I see a lot players fondly remembering their first Ragefire Chasm or Wailing Caverns runs. The Deadmines however has a good feel to the place, for people that started their questing in Elwynn Forest it concludes a large part of the story they've been dealing with for the past twenty levels, but the basic design of the instance of you ignore everything else is still just a long corridor interspersed with bigger rooms containing bosses.

It's the fact that you can actually see the mobs in there working on producing something, have patrols move from the entrance of the instance to further parts of the instance and creeping up behind you, and even the fact that you get to blow open a door with a cannon and then have the next boss yell at his underlings to investigate what's going on. Those things all make it so that it feels more alive.

Shadow Labyrinth in Auchindoun is an example of an instance which is close to this level, but misses some key parts. The final part leading up to Murmur feels fun, you get to see the mobs fighting Murmur, getting killed, but they do so in complete silence, which is disappointing, where's some commanding figure yelling and trying to lead them? The same things counts for Blackheart the Inciter in there, the room he's in makes it look like he's giving a lecture or a speech, but because he doesn't actually do so it just feels like a huge room filled with trash mobs.

Sethekk Halls, despite the fact that it's not a particularly well done instance, does have one nice touch right at the entrance. The two guards at the entrance don't just stand there right from the beginning, they move from around the corner, and then stand still when they see your group, silently challenging them. It makes a very, very small difference from them just standing there right at the start, but it makes it feel like it makes more sense. Unfortunately the rest of the instance is mostly an example of "Mobs standing around waiting to be killed for no particular reason", though the voice acting is cool.

On the extreme side of things, the Escape from Durnholde instance in the Caverns of Time is also entirely on rails, but is extremely good at feeling like it isn't. This is in part because you can freely explore the place since it's a wide open area, but you also get a reason for why you do things in the order you do. You first need to start the fires to make a distraction so you can get into Durnholde Keep and free Thrall, Thrall then wants to head to Tarren Mill to find Taretha, and finally you get confronted by the forces that have been modifying the time line. It feels complete.

Another few things which could be done to make instances feel more alive which aren't currently really used anywhere is simple things like having mobs rush in from side rooms and then having the doors barricaded behind them, you'd still keep the same basic design as TBC's instances this way, but the place you're exploring feels larger. You could even take it one step further, make it so that at the end of the corridor there's multiple doors, and make it so that all but one of these doors gets barricaded as you get close enough, but make it so that which of the doors it is isn't always the same. This could then result in you going through a different series of rooms to reach the same basic goal; you could even keep the same basic mobs along the way. It'd make the instance feel larger without actually making the place more complex.

Edit:

More touches like this would also be really nice for raid instances. Raid instances are typically the headquarters or bastion of some hostile faction, and they typically have more than enough enemies. Yet we rarely see anyone except our own 25 people in there. Wouldn't it have been much cooler if the gates of the Black Temple get smashed open by the combined forces of the Aldor and the Scryers after Supremus dies to open a shortcut than to get the ability to tell a ghost to take you farther in? The Ashtongue Deathsworn become friendly after you defeat the Shade of Akama, but why don't they spread out to fortify and defend other areas where the bosses have been killed?

I can't speak properly for the Sunwell currently because I haven't seen the entire place, but the entire design of the area around it begs for the Shattered Sun Offensive to be right behind you, ensuring that you won't get attacked from behind by anything or anyone.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Moogul

One of my favourite things in 2.4 is the Sunwell Bombing run quest. Now, it's not exactly the most imaginative thing, we've been having bombing runs for ages now, but I like how when you set off on your path, you get the row of Archers trying to shoot you down, yelling about not letting the dragonhawk bomber through. Then as you fly over the Naga areas, there's some NPC dragonhawk riders that swoop down above you, give a quick speech about how they need to focus on the demons, not the undead, in order to keep them fighting, and then split off to give you cover as you go in for the bombing run. In many ways, it reminded me of the Star Wars trench run, with your wingmen trying to distract the enemy whilst you head for the main target. Overall it just made me feel like I was part of a war effort, that this mission meant something, despite being an incredibly simple and easy 'click here to win' quest, and it really makes it feel alive.

 

Nezralix

Yes.

At least partly. I think it's surprisingly powerful to have 'optional' areas of a dungeon, twists and turns you can choose to take, so that it feels a little deeper than "run through this instance killing everything in sight". It promotes running the instance intelligently, and gives them the opportunity to throw a few "extra" bosses in for those groups that are moving quickly and don't mind doing it. Blizzard isn't obligated to create dungeons that are capable of being fully understood by the average player on their first run through it. Especially when these are dungeons that players will be running dozens of times after they've reached the level cap.

And even when you have run it a dozen times, the initial feeling of "wow, this is a neat place with a lot going on in it" sticks with you. None of the new instances are really as compelling to me as the pre-TBC stuff, and I might almost be inclined to attribute it to nostalgia against my better judgment, except that many people evidently feel the same way.

Somebody a few months ago said it pretty well: TBC feels almost over-engineered, like the developers said "okay, now we know how to make these games, let's do it", and threw away some of the "soft" factors that made WoW 1.0 as great as it was. And to that end, I'd rather have at least a couple of dungeons where I have to occasionally argue with groupmates about which path to take, than a huge set of dungeons where the topic never comes up.

 

Kumar

In Vanilla WoW, the use of Dungeons vastly differs from the use of Dungeons in TBC and that is pretty much the reason their design is so different (that does not excuse the weak lore for some of the dungeons though). From spreading instances accross 8-10 levels for you to do, you are now doing instances every level (ideally anyway). When I have to run 8-10 instances over 60 levels I would like them to feel big, "3D", alive and interesting. When I have to run them every level, well running Strat over and over for Rep would get pretty tiring.

At this point in time from reading the information about WoLTK 5-mans I think they will go in the same direction with the dungeon layout while adding more Lore to it. If we say that the dungeon spread out will be similar to that of TBC for the expansion, then each faction should have 2-3 dungeons related to them. I don't think Blizzard can spend the time on making each of them vast and sprawling and extremely Lore Rich, but there should be one such dungeon for the faction which does that, explores the Lore with some important questlines.

 

Treesurgeon

The difference between Pre BC and post BC in a few ways reminds me of the Star Wars series of films. The latest 3 films have magnificent special effects and many details even in thier design that are far superior to the 3 previous films and that's mostly based upon technology and budget. But the older films have a certain intangible charm to them.

As mentioned above, a certain part of it is nostalga in that we ran BRD, BRS, Scholo until our eyes bled because between raids, there wasn't much else to do.

I would also venture to say what people who post on these forums like/dislike/would like to see diverges significantly from the massive population as a whole. While I like the sprawling, epic feel of places like BRD, there are plenty more who want to log in, be railroaded through static trash pulls, 3 bosses and a shiny blue toy.

The word "overshot" was used in a previous post and that's very true and something Blizzard tends to do quite a bit of. Blizzard can be very reactionary in changes they make yet people will complain they don't do anything fast enough.

The audience Blizzard has to appeal to is diverse and a very large segment of it demands instant gratification and simple game play. They have to work very hard to make encounters just difficult enough to still be somewhat challenging without alienating many of thier paying customers.

I would at least like to see more lore development associating the instances with the surrounding world. Long quest chains that send you on a mission to do something you can RP into feeling like you changed things in your own way. I'd like to see some variety and some more timed bonus rewards like ZA even in 5 mans. There will still have to be the 'railroad' style dungeons because frankly, thats what alot of people want, but I'd prefer to have every dungeon a little differnt, not the same basic layout with different artwork.

I really enjoy the HFC instances. They feel like you are assualting a fortress and the boss encounters, for the most part, are pretty interesting. TK didn't really appeal to me in terms of artwork but it has its own style. I agree, Auchindoun is pretty bleh.

I'm looking forward to Wrath, I actually enjoy the level grind...even as a prot warrior and a resto druid. I like seeing dungeons for the first time. People tend to get caught up with "whats the fastest way to do this" and it becomes a mindless grind. That's what, IMO, has ruined AV...its not about fighting against the other faction, its zerging a few objectives and killing an NPC. PvE and PvP have become similar in that regard.

 

Nezralix

I think you need more distinction between [lay-out and size] and [boss mechanics, trash amounts and abilities].

For the most part, they did a very good job with the boss fights and the trash. I doubt anyone can argue against that. The challenge is generally more consistent than it was in 1.0.

The problem is that the rest of the dungeon design amounts to a simple container for the boss fights and the trash.

 

Vernichter

There was a thread a number of months ago entitled "Why WoW Needs More Deadmines", and it had much of the same discussion about instance design in classic vs. TBC. One theme that really stood out is that dungeons need a sense of purpose in a two-fold manner: players need a storyline reason for coming to the dungeon, and the NPCs need a reason for being there. Interestingly enough, Half-life is a great game for referencing these concepts. Half-life is a well-balanced shooter with a decent story, but what made it truly revolutionary was the scripting. Scientists interacted with monsters and equipment "before" the player first saw them, which made those NPCs seem much more organic and lifelike. Similarly, when the NPCs noticed the player, they would often have a clear reaction. This made the player feel like a part of the world. A surprisingly small amount of dialogue and scripting can go a very long way into breathing life into NPCs and then into immersing players into that liveliness.

Another salient point about instance design in WoW is that there is a big benefit to rail-designs that look open. A series of blind corridors with a boss at the end is less immersive than an open area where you are forced into a specific path but you can see your destination ahead of time and periodically along the way. The anticipation makes the trash seem like less of a drudgery and adds to the character of the boss.

 

Doriangray

Yes, and that is what made BRS so great in my opinion. Yes, UBRS was a very linear dungeon. But you could look ahead and behind from time to time, and even down to LBRS in the later parts. Also, at least for me, fighting your way up or down a dungeon feels much more immersive than just fighting along closed corridors that are more or less on the same level at all times. Open areas, courtyards, pits etc. with several levels that you end up on during the course of your instance run just give a feel of vastness with little additional work, since as I said, you see them several times anyway, just from different angles. I thought this game had a 3D engine for other reasons than pretty pixels on our shoulders.

 

Tinweasele

You have to admit that on some level blizzard picked up on this with the design of magisters terrace to some respect, its an open area but you are guided along a track. And being able to see the 3rd boss before even reaching the 1st just has a good feel to it.

 

Douglas

Absolutely, though I confess a wish that they could figure out how to make the minimap represent the vertical dimension better.

I don't have any specific thoughts, though I know a lot of people were very confused in Sunken Temple because of this factor, and I was briefly confused in Magister's Terrace because of it.