While it's true that they've never removed an entire instance before, they did remove old Kazzak/Kruul. Since they dropped [Eskhandar's Pelt] from the Spirit of Eskhandar set, it's actually a more meaningful change than it first seems. It shows that they don't have any qualms about destroying the integrity of obsolete gear progression, even when it costs them nothing to maintain that integrity. I think it's a shame really, since the outright removal of content seems to me at least to be almost antithetical to what I want from an MMORPG, i.e. to experience content.
I would rather experience Naxx at 80 than plough through the level 60 tuned raid like a 5man instance at 80.
But apart from that, MMORPGs are constantly evolving, the storylines are constatnly evolving, our characters are constantly evolving and the fact that the evolution happens in a static world can sometimes make things difficult. The removal of Naxx from Plaguelands and move to Northrend is a part of that evolution. Blizzard is not just going to lift it from EPL and put it in Northrend, there will be a story associated with that too. Its a change we are all part of and it will continue to happen with many things.
I'm kinda surprised that they'd remove Naxx from EPL. There's good reasons to not really worry about continuity issues arising from the same people existing in two places at the same time, these are all fudged over by implying that one version precedes the other (ie. they didn't remove Kael from The Eye, Thrall appears in Nagrand even though he's normally in Orgrimmar, Jaina makes an appearance in Dustwallow, any Onyxia is STILL there in the SW Court after 3 years of being killed by raiders.) My guess is that they're just going to retcon out the existence of Naxx ever being in the EPL, or possibly make it canon that there was never a successful incursion there (ignore all that T3 loot) and that's why all the bosses are still alive, and thus it'd create continuity errors to allows raids to clear it in EPL still (though it creates continuity errors when I kill Thrall too..) But then again, Fordring has the Ashbringer now, they have to explain that... I don't know, really. Suffice to say I think they should've left level 60 Naxx (and Kruul) as they were.
On the assumption that there's going to be a world-event-type thing before WLK hits, my guess is that after a second scourge invasion there's enough of a concentrated counterattack from the alliance and/or horde (and/or argent dawn/scarlet crusade/etc) to push the scourge on the (nominal) defensive. Part of this involves Arthas recalling Naxx back to northrend to be part of his Doom Fortress' main defenses without the need for a retcon, and gives a nice segue into thousands of players coming down on the continent for the first time simultaneously. And, of course, there are subtle implications that it's all part of Arthas' real Evil Plan(tm) to draw us into Northrend to corrupt/kill the best and brightest of Azeroth's defenders.
On the assumption that there's going to be a world-event-type thing before WLK hits, my guess is that after a second scourge invasion there's enough of a concentrated counterattack from the alliance and/or horde (and/or argent dawn/scarlet crusade/etc) to push the scourge on the (nominal) defensive. Part of this involves Arthas recalling Naxx back to northrend to be part of his Doom Fortress' main defenses without the need for a retcon, and gives a nice segue into thousands of players coming down on the continent for the first time simultaneously. And, of course, there are subtle implications that it's all part of Arthas' real Evil Plan(tm) to draw us into Northrend to corrupt/kill the best and brightest of Azeroth's defenders.
Well there is also the fact that the trophy from Kel'Thuzad isn't with Argent Dawn, I am guessing that is used somehow in his ressurection.
Also as for the Scrouge Invasion, I really hope so it happens and not only in Azeroth buy also in Outlands.
I'm kinda surprised that they'd remove Naxx from EPL. There's good reasons to not really worry about continuity issues arising from the same people existing in two places at the same time, these are all fudged over by implying that one version precedes the other (ie. they didn't remove Kael from The Eye, Thrall appears in Nagrand even though he's normally in Orgrimmar, Jaina makes an appearance in Dustwallow, any Onyxia is STILL there in the SW Court after 3 years of being killed by raiders.) My guess is that they're just going to retcon out the existence of Naxx ever being in the EPL, or possibly make it canon that there was never a successful incursion there (ignore all that T3 loot) and that's why all the bosses are still alive, and thus it'd create continuity errors to allows raids to clear it in EPL still (though it creates continuity errors when I kill Thrall too..) But then again, Fordring has the Ashbringer now, they have to explain that... I don't know, really. Suffice to say I think they should've left level 60 Naxx (and Kruul) as they were.
What exactly do they have to Retcon? We're invading Northrend so Arthas recalls Naxxramas(or it's repelled and returns) and since we gave Kel'thuzads essence off to some random guy they can easily resurrect him with no problems. As for all the bosses in Naxx.... they're all UNDEAD what's stopping them from rising right back up? It's not like we burned the corpses or anything.
Isnt Blizzplanet also known to be hinting toward a Diablo 3 announcement every month or so. I cant say they wont be right (if they keep guessing, they will be some day probably), but I wouldnt exactly trust what they say before it comes true.
Everyone knows Blizz is working on at least 1 unknown game, maybe even 2, judging from rumours and their job pages. Announcing a new game right now, with both Woltk and SC2 on the line, creating endless hype already, might seem a bit weird, but of course, even if they do announce it, it will be a long time before it comes out, so its not like it will really affect the hype for SC2 and Wotlk. Actually they might want to get the announcement out now, rather than in the middle of the SC2 craziness that is destined to happen whenever that game is ready for release.
But the current rumors arent different from the stuff thats been going on for the last year or more, if you read through BlizzPlanet news, its fairly constant "D3 will be announced at Blizzcon, oh vnm, at [insert next event]"
About Naxx, imo they should just remove the floating citadel from the skyline, but leave the portal or something that leads to the old instance, for those who, for whatever reasons, might want to get in there again. Or, hell, add a portal to it from Caverns of Time ('Alternate timeline Naxx, enter here!!')
Announcing a new game right now, with both Woltk and SC2 on the line, creating endless hype already, might seem a bit weird, but of course, even if they do announce it, it will be a long time before it comes out, so its not like it will really affect the hype for SC2 and Wotlk.
As a previous poster mentioned, it is in Blizzard's best intention to ensure that every spotlight from every gaming community is on THEM and their releases. This is particularly important with potential WoW rivals (I'll avoid the term 'killers') emerging soon; to protect their biggest asset, it does not surprise me in the least that Blizzard would be encouraging the kind of hype Blizzplanet and Diablo3.com are generating at the moment.
With StarCraft 2, WotLK and the unannounced third project for Blizzard fans to devour, its very much a case of the company appealing to every possible kind of fan to retain their position at the head of the market.
Diablo 3 is definitely in development, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is formally announced in the near future, yeah. Granted, I'm just a random anecdotal idiot on the internet, so you're welcome to ignore me, but as my source told me about details of TBC and SC2 before they were released, I trust them enough.
Besides, it's not exactly rocket science to guess that Blizzard will make sequels of popular and established franchises. It's just, like, when.
but as my source told me about details of TBC and SC2 before they were released, I trust them enough.
I love when people think that mentioning "their source" lends credibility to their posts. My source reckons anyone could say that but still be lying. Not that Your lying (you may not be), just that the "source" bit seems a tad unnecessary.
Back onto Naxx, I hope it turns out to be the first full 25man for WotLK. Ship it to Northrend, change the quests, but leave the bosses pretty much untouched. The difficult already catered for most raiders at 60, so why change the progression? Casual and new raiders can spend the first 3 or so months having fun in one of the best designed dungeons ever, and the hardcore raiders can blitz through, grab some gear, and then hit the new raids. The only thing I hope the tune down is Sapphiron...i really don't want to be farming res gear for my first WotLK raids...
What exactly do they have to Retcon? We're invading Northrend so Arthas recalls Naxxramas(or it's repelled and returns) and since we gave Kel'thuzads essence off to some random guy they can easily resurrect him with no problems. As for all the bosses in Naxx.... they're all UNDEAD what's stopping them from rising right back up? It's not like we burned the corpses or anything.
I'd personally find it less stupid if they just retconned the initial Naxx event rather than saying, "yea, you cleared Naxx, but you didn't actually make sure anything was dead!" Maybe they'll find a more sophisticated way of doing that though, I don't know.
I could also buy the "CoT: Naxxaramas" idea, but that's already been more-or-less deconfirmed.
I'd personally find it less stupid if they just retconned the initial Naxx event rather than saying, "yea, you cleared Naxx, but you didn't actually make sure anything was dead!" Maybe they'll find a more sophisticated way of doing that though, I don't know.
I could also buy the "CoT: Naxxaramas" idea, but that's already been more-or-less deconfirmed.
All they'd have to do is say "oops, looks nobody succeeded at invading Naxxramas."
Nah - lore integrity is dead easy for this. The phylactery was not destroyed, and Kel'thuzad is a necromancer which means he can ressurect or recontruct the bosses easily enough - he was responsible for their creation in the first place, after all. And moving naxx isnt a problem either - the entire point of a floating fortress is that its mobile, so if Arthras wants his millitary asset in northrend to fight the invasion.. thats where it will be.
Nah - lore integrity is dead easy for this. The phylactery was not destroyed, and Kel'thuzad is a necromancer which means he can ressurect or recontruct the bosses easily enough - he was responsible for their creation in the first place, after all. And moving naxx isnt a problem either - the entire point of a floating fortress is that its mobile, so if Arthras wants his millitary asset in northrend to fight the invasion.. thats where it will be.
You guys are making the leap of faith on the assumption lore wise we already cleared Naxxramas. There's a good chance since we're gonna be re-fighting most of the bosses, that they're gonna pretend we didn't even do Naxxramas at 60. Supporting argument being that we will in fact, fight the same bosses retuned for 25 people @ 80, and that they're eliminating the old instance.
I have a just as good argument on that - Kel'Thuzad managed to recreate the bosses, they aren't unique in any way after all. They were the prototypes in Plaguelands but now they're back again with meaner skills.
Ok, it doesn't really make sense if they have the same names but that's easy to fix.
I don't think using a "oh KT just reincarnated everyone" excuse will work. Not all of the bosses in Naxx are Undead. Faerlina, Heigan and Noth specifically are all living humans (necromancers from Warcraft III lore are all still alive), and there are some random beasts scattered around (Maexxna). Could KT make an undead version of all of them? Yeah, but that is stretching it a bit. I would put my money on either a total retcon (patch 1.11 never happened) or different names for all the bosses.
Or maybe we won't be seeing all the bosses in the new Naxx, a level 80 entry level 25 man instance with 15 odd bosses is a lot. Lets say Naxx will be one of the instance to drop Tier armor, I beleive they will stick with the same tier armor system of having set bonus for 2pc/4pc and I would say 5-6 pieces of armor.
If they follow the same design pattern as TBC, you won't have multiple bosses dropping the same tier token (which is what Naxx does) which effectively allows them to remove bosses that don't fit in their lore (if they do choose to explain it). If Blizzard is going to follow the TBC design having 15 bosses is a stretch for the new Naxx.
Edit: The other thing unclear to me is what Blizzard means by entry level 25 man raid, will it be like SSC or Kara i.e. you can do it in heroic drops/quest rewards or would you need some sort of T7 armor for it. IMO, Naxx will be attunement for Icecrown Citadel.
All they'd have to do is say "oops, looks nobody succeeded at invading Naxxramas."
They said in an early interview, that we did suceed in taking the dread citadel's commanders down. However Arthas saw this defeat and recalled the Citadel to restock his forces there. That is their explanation. As far as bosses the, minus the few lich bosses, most were creations (Grobbulus, Thaddius, Patchwerk, Gluth, even Loatheb could be some experiment gone wrong) or creatures, which I'm sure there are more of in the world (giant spiders/spider lords omg). I've just accounted for half the bosses being back in there with some story.
As for the human/lich bosses, I'm sure Arthas has more Lieutenants.
Naxxramas gets cleared every week... and I don't see any of you making a big deal out of that. How is this any different? We already know that "level" doesn't really translate to in-game power. As Metzan himself said, Deephome came after Stratholme, yet Deephome is currently like a level 15-20 area and Stratholme is 55-60 or so. (And of course Culling will presumably be somewhere in 75-80 range). In-game and in-character, level != strength/power.
I mean if that was the case are we going to say some random schmuck Level 72 Crystalhide Boar in Blade's Edge Mountain is stronger than a Level 62 Anubisath? Levels are irrelevant.
This has nothing to do with our levels, names, characters or ingame. It's about lore and continuity. If Naxxramas was turned into Northrend instance as it is, it couldn't have the same bosses again because the lore there continues and happens After kel'thuzad was killed (because it wasn't in northrend in the first place etc...).
duh.
I'm sure Arthas has more Lieutenants.
Exactly what I was pointing at. It doesn't make much sense to have same tactics again on new lieutenants but lore never explained tactics anyway, so it doesn't interfere with that.
This has nothing to do with our levels, names, characters or ingame. It's about lore and continuity. If Naxxramas was turned into Northrend instance as it is, it couldn't have the same bosses again because the lore there continues and happens After kel'thuzad was killed (because it wasn't in northrend in the first place etc...).
duh.
Exactly what I was pointing at. It doesn't make much sense to have same tactics again on new lieutenants but lore never explained tactics anyway, so it doesn't interfere with that.
There was a fairly extensive thread on the WoW forums about this very topic, where the changes to Naxxramas were compared to the Kael'thas issue. In a nutshell, Blizzard feels that since the two places we meet Kael'thas are different points in the story, it's quite okay to have him be in two places at once (even though players may kill the MgT version before the TK version). Naxxramas, however, is going to be considered as a single encounter, no matter which 'version' you end up going to. Hence why, once WotLK hits, the old Naxx will cease to exist, and the new one will take it's place.
This has nothing to do with our levels, names, characters or ingame. It's about lore and continuity. If Naxxramas was turned into Northrend instance as it is, it couldn't have the same bosses again because the lore there continues and happens After kel'thuzad was killed (because it wasn't in northrend in the first place etc...).
duh.
Exactly what I was pointing at. It doesn't make much sense to have same tactics again on new lieutenants but lore never explained tactics anyway, so it doesn't interfere with that.
The tactics will need to change slightly on most bosses for the smaller raid size anyway. For example, Instructor Razuvious will likely not have so many adds, which will likely change the timers on the buffs/debuffs... perhaps NPCs will be involved, or shorter timed debuffs. Something like Noth or Gluth will have to change a bit more I imagine.
I expect some of the same bosses, some different, with slightly different tactics all around and probably at least one or two encounters that get entirely reworked.
"Kaplan believes that having Naxxramas as a new 10- and 25-man introductory raid serves a few functions for Wrath of the Lich King. First, it lets the vast bulk of players experience what many believe are some of the best raid encounters Blizzard ever produced. Finally, it serves as the start of the new "two-tier" raiding system. Going forward, all raid dungeons will have both 10- and 25-man versions with their separate itemization lists and progression tracks. There will be no attunement requirements nor will getting into a 25-man raid be dependent on any 10-man raiding."
It's going to be interesting to see how interest in 25-mans holds up against that kind of pressure. If they're saying what that quote suggests, they're not even going to have discrete encounters - you'll probably have beaten Arthas a dozen times in the 10-man before everybody pulled their weight enough in the 25-man to drop him. It's a bit disappointing that way, although it's nice to see effort going into opening up content more. (And also into making better small-group content for people whose schedules have been rocked by work.)
Well, if the 10/25 man versions don't share reset timers - then we'll probably see guilds doing both versions every week - which could lead to issues reminiscent of the 10/25 problems at the beginning of TBC. You have your 25 man squad - but how do you arrange guild runs to the 10 man versions? How will tank/healer/dps balance work between those sizes - ie need 3 tanks for 25 man, 2 tanks for 10 man = issues. Could see a lot of possible drama here, if the 10 man loot helps progression in the 25 mans (which it probably will). And yeah I don't hope Arthas is available in the 10 man version. Not because of elitism - but because it would suck to have killed him in a 10 man, before doing it in a 25 man. Would cheapen the experience quite a bit, imho.
The death knight info sounds interesting. Almost makes it sounds like a pet class in some ways.
04/19/08, 3:29 PM
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