Zwink

I can sympathize with the OP on the difficulty of recruiting a good Hunter. When I recruit a Mage, I know what I'm going to get. How difficult is it to spam Arcane Blast or Fire Ball? However, with hunters it seems to vary greatly from player to player. Pre TBC we had a lot of Hunters, 6 to 7 per raid. Most of them did terrible damage, but a few stood out and topped our meters regularly.

Right now we have 2 excellent Hunters and I don't see myself recruiting another any time soon. One of them is Survival for Expose Weakness, which seems to be a great boost in dps. The other is Marksman and is probably the most consistent person in the number 1 slot on our damage meters. If I had to recruit a third, I would be very worried about the quality of Hunter I would be getting.

http://vodka-guild.com

 

Daenerys

Fair enough.

BM should have 2/2 Animal Handler if you raid, especially if you raid with a scorpid. Period. Check your pet's misses in WWS if you're not sold on it.

It pays to be balanced in your stat allocation. And pet AP has nothing to do with Scorpid Poison DPS. It's based on the pet's spell power, which is based on your RAP. So while you are writh that higher RAP means higher poison ticks, your reasoning is flawed.

Let's not flame, Howi was trying to give you some good advice. =)

 

Howitzer

No, I'm not new to BM spec, sir. Without needing to spew math at you I can try to explain why your reasoning is flawed. According to your own math you're somewhat disproving yourself. Agi is giving you AP and crit, scaling you and your pet. Your base crit rating should be much higher than it is with the gear you have, but because it isn't, you're forced to put points into bestial discipline which is unnecessary if it was higher. You don't need 5 points into Frenzy, either, as 4 is enough to have it up, (take a hint from other top raiding hunters in the world), giving you the option to add 1 more into Animal handler. You'd rather have 2% more of a miss-rate on your pet for less FI procs, less frenzy, less attacks in general? AP stacking is about as worthless as only stacking crit. You have to balance yourself plain and simple. Your character in my eyes, just needs some tweaking!

P.S. - If you think that Pets gain lots from you stacking AP. Go ahead and do a simple test for yourself and see how worthless it can be. For example, if your pet has 700 AP and you're trying to get your pet down to 600 AP. You're going to have to literally take off about 5 pieces of your armor to make that happen. We're talking about gems here. You're getting much more from AGI gems than AP gems than your PET is gaining from you just stacking AP in every slot. Please believe me, I'm not trying to be an asshole here. Replace all your 20 ap epic gems with 10 agi gems and you'll see yourself doing more DPS in raids.

 

Antarius

Warlocks and Hunters have always been fairly linked in regards to "needing" ui mods to compete. And also, if you'll notice in other trends, like on the Daedelus poll, a high percentage of older players, as well as female players.

The only major difference is where Warlocks have had Necrosis / Dotimer for a while, which makes keeping all of your dots stacked perfectly, There isn't really a mod out there that trivializes the hunter shot rotation.

And Valjean I honestly wish we could get a hunter recruit that would do the same for our hunters, they may not be sub-prot warrior dps, but they do all share the traits of playing a hunter for a long time pre-tbc and also all completely stuck on MM spec and all of them lagging behind fairly often on the damage meter by good margins despite being some of our most active and best geared players.

 

sovelis41

I think I'll just repeat what was said above: How hunter DPS really works is counter-intuitive to the way the game presents itself overall. Obviously for any class you need to theorycraft and read up to maximize your DPS, but most classes are 90% of the way there, and just need to add some /stopcasting and maybe better ordering/timing.

To optimize as a hunter, you literally have to practice your timing with your autoshot and constantly make decisions about what to use next. It's gotten to the point in raids where when a fight ends, I know exactly where I am on the meter without even looking at them just because of how my DPS 'felt' that fight. Mending pet a lot (or not threading it between your autos), mob/boss going just inside your deadzone, represent significant drops in your DPS.

For most fights, the first couple kills I'm around 800-900 DPS until I really get used to my responsibilities in the fight and the bosses abilities/phase changes. This takes a considerable amount of effort, and I submerge in WWS and Recount reports to see where I really need to improve. Lucky for us, our other hunters are similarly motivated.

 

Daenerys

This makes me so sad. =(

 

Kaber

I created all the rotation macros for our hunters (not that the BM one was difficult), and I honestly do not believe these macros are actually good for DPS. They are better for your average person that cannot time their shots, or just do not want to be bothered with it (and I fall into the latter category), but any decent player who practices enough will get far more DPS by avoiding rotation macros completely and hand-timing their shots. I run with 200-300 latency, and I know I would do higher DPS using quartz and timing my own shots, but I, along with the rest of our hunters, simply do not want to be bothered with having to focus that hard on our rotation. Find me any other class that has to focus and time to that extent without reducing their DPS as much as it does for us.

 

Zogeth

Top 4 factors that negatively affect hunter DPS and could be used as reasons why the general population of hunter suck:

1. Awful mechanics. Tricky to place shots in the correct time.

2. Very dependent game stability. You need a flawless connection and good FPS (has to be in combat FPS)

3. Very easy to get wrong, one little mishap can throw your whole rotation off, leading to a dropped special. Definitely requires a lot of concentration on boss fights.

4. Its just too complicated. To be successful, you need to be an avid theorycrafter. This shouldn't be the case.

 

◊ zeidrich

Hi, I'm not a hunter.

Unless pets exist in some strange world where they defy all combat rules, 2% higher miss rate will not effect your FI procs, or your Frenzy procs.

Both FI and Frenzy proc off crits, not hits. Hit rate does not effect crit rate unless your crit is so massively high it's otherwise filling the combat table.

As I'm not a hunter I'm not saying anything either way about the value of the talent. But to try and justify it by saying it effects FI and frenzy is misinformed, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Xavias

Without derailing what this topic is about, I disagree with your position on this.
Fair enough about the Animal handler talent, but I personally have never lost 5 stacks of scorpid poison due to 2 misses in a row. It usually gets knocked off by other debuffs. The chances of 1 extra point in this talent actually saving me from losing stacks of scorpid poison is so small, that it would probably be rated as one of the lowest damage buff talents in the entire tree. So by taking one point out of frenzy, I stand to lose a slight amount of pet DPS and gain nothing.

PS. Miss rate doesn't affect the possible outcomes of FI and Frenzy.

Mathematically, I gain more from AP at my CURRENT character state. I have shown you the maths on this. However, I think I am at the point where I need to stop stacking so much AP. While you are right, that one cannot keep stacking only 1 of the two stats, I believe I am just reaching that point now. I plan to begin stacking Agility into my t6 gear.

 

Corinthian

Does anyone else see a fundamental problem with the fact that Hunters don't get Steady Shot until level 62? After playing with it for this long, I can't imagine levelling without it. I wouldn't be surprised if this has an adverse affect on new hunters, who spend significant time without the ability, and don't realize it's significance once they do obtain it.

Imagine playing a Rogue without Sinister Strike for that long...

 

Camora

I read this entire thread, and then I thought, "I wonder what the Hunter community thinks of these statements?" so, i went and made this. it seems the consensus is that the people this thread is aimed at simply don't know and/or don't care where or how to find information like this. I wonder, is that something that can be fixed at all? I mean, how do you motivate what is, in the case of hunters, almost an entire community!

 

Nightshroud

Indeed.

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Hunter Guide

 

Kaber

Oh, and to the OP: if you want to see what Howitzer is talking about, plug your gear into Cheeky's DPS spread sheet. Switch between AP and Agi gems, and you will see the difference in DPS yourself.

Or find Arcuzua's AEP calculations and calculate agility, AP, and crit for your build. As BM, my numbers come out to about 10pts per agi, 13 per Hit, 9.5 per crit, 4 per AP, etc. You get 2x the AP on your gems, but that still makes it come out behind agility. Even if you are trying to stack AP for your pet (which will only give you maybe 30 more than you would have with agility stacked in those gem slots), it does not make that big a difference on scorpid poison to have 30 more AP. I can get a 2.8k AP stack up, and it does maybe 50 more damage per tick than when I only get a 2.4k AP stack. It isn't worth gimping your crit, and the rest of your DPS to stack AP.

 

Antarius

Why? I don't think our hunters are "terrible players", bad people, or anything, or that the class is FUBAR or whatnot, so why does this make you "so sad"?

I think they all just happen to share the same mentality of Kaber. They COULD be doing more dps, but most of the time they don't ever even try to push themselves to do it. And while most other classes have some kind of inter-class competition (Hell even healers get to compete to see who let's their assigned tank die the most).

So they all end up in sub 1k dps mediocrity island with the freshly recruited still wearing mostly blue gear mages/warlocks/shadowpriests. But about once a week one of them will actually try and play well and I'll see him at the top of the dps chart for a single fight or 2.

 

Nightshroud

I have to disagree. The class is complex. Understanding precisely why something is right and another wrong takes a detailed understanding.

But it isn't complicated to do what needs to be done if a player can just accept instruction from a Hunter who does understand and correct. The relentless attention to your timing is still there, but that is more a matter of discipline and practice than complex theorycrafting.

Amen. I would go absolutely nuts leveling a new Hunter without Steady Shot. That needs to be a level 8 skill, seriously.

Priest Guide
Hunter Guide

 

Harwin

I thought it was established that Steady Shot scaled as 20% of AP not 30%(the new patch is supposed to fix the tooltip)? That brings it down to 9.86 damage per steadyshot for 44 AP, and getting the equivalent in AGI (22) is now worth (9.86+8.1)/2 = 8.98 (9.88 when buffed with Kings > 9.86).

Of course, bad tooltips are symptomatic of the problem.... AP sure looks a lot better if the coefficient is 30% instead of 20%.

 

Fugazor

Before TBC I knew 5 good hunters. After TBC 1 rolled pala, 1 rolled war, 1 rolled mage, 1 rolled rogue, 1 quit. I think that clearly shows that class is not really fun to play at end-game in TBC. Shot timing + mana bar + pet with simple go/back controls = problems.

 

Nightshroud

20% in my guide, which I verified against many dead Tram Rats. Hunter tooltips are quite bad. If I recall -- not online at the moment -- the PTR Steady tooltip still implies every shot with the same AP against the same armor mitigation will do constant damage. There's not even a "plus weapon damage" in there. Technically it would be "normalized weapon damage," but that only confuses those who don't already understand and expect it. The bonus to weapon damage is at least correct on PTR.

Excerpt (much love to anyone who can catch an inaccuracy):

Quick Reference

Auto Shot
BowMax + (AttackPower/14)*BowSpeed + AmmoBoost + ScopeBoost

Steady Shot
2.8*BowMax/BowSpeed + 0.2*AttackPower + 150

Steady Shot (Dazed)
2.8*BowMax/BowSpeed + 0.2*AttackPower + 325

Multi-Shot
BowMax + 2.8*(AttackPower/14) + AmmoBoost + ScopeBoost + 205

Aimed Shot
BowMax + 2.8*(AttackPower/14) + AmmoBoost + ScopeBoost + 870

Arcane Shot
0.15*AttackPower + 273

Silencing Shot & Scatter Shot
AutoShotMax / 2

Volley Tick
105 + 0.15*Spellpower

Distracting Shot Threat
900

Priest Guide
Hunter Guide

 

Tmesis

Your examination of the math is a little incorrect and not thorough enough.

Once you note that RAP increases will increase DPS linearly if crit rating is constant and that crit rating increases will increase DPS linearly if RAP is constant, it becomes fairly simple to visually understand the relationship between RAP and crit rating.

Create a formula for DPS which is a function of an unspecified change in RAP (ΔRAP) given y crit rating.

Create a formula for DPS which is a function of an unspecified change in crit rating (ΔCR) given x RAP.

Hunter Shot and Pet Mechanics is a great resource to puzzle out your DPS formulas from.

Equate the two formulas and re-arrange so that y=f(x,ΔRAP,ΔCR). What you can now do is modify ΔRAP and ΔCR so as to fit your specific scenario.

Let's consider 8 agility vs 16 RAP (with kings)

By using 16 RAP, you gain 7.2 RAP
By using 8 agility, you gain ~4.86 crit rating

ΔRAP=7.2
ΔCR=4.86

When you create the graph of y=f(x), you see the points of Crit Rating and RAP where 16 RAP will provide the same increase in DPS as 8.8 agility. If your Crit Rating vs RAP is above the line, RAP is better. If below the line, the Crit Rating is better.

An interesting application of this is in comparing scopes. A straight damage scope can be converted into an equivalent amount of RAP for your specific weapon. You then run RAP vs Crit Rating and see which is better for you.

 

Howitzer

Kaber basically hit the nail on the head. The other thing the OP isn't taking advantage of is the Earthstorm diamond meta, which, in conjunction with Mortal Shots, is absolutely awesome. Mortal shots, behind serpent's swiftness, is one of our best talents, period. Gimping your crit is just destroying your dps potential regardless of what spec you are because its that much less time you'll be able to take advantage of the talent by lowering your crit in favor of AP.

 

Xavias

Read my above post

My current gear is centered around the t5 era, and AP was the bomb. I fully intend on using AGI gems in my t6+ gear, as it has reached the threshold of being better. (this also applies to the meta, as it requires major socket changes in gear)

Now if we were to recalculate my above formulas by the readjustment of my gems from 16 AP to 8 AGI:

Lets say I replace 5 of my AP gems with 8 AGI gems:
Changes to stats: -40 RAP +1% crit.
White DPS - was 420, now is 416.
White DPS = 416 x crit rate (23%) = 511.68

Now lets compare that to my current Gem assignment with full AP gems - 420 DPS with 22% crit
White DPS = 420 x crit rate (22%) = 512.4

Pardon me if I left anything out, 4:30 am =(
Your right, i'm very tired. I'll fix it up tomorrow

PS. I meant 3000 AP as MM spec.

 

Jinsu

If you don't want to be "bothered" then why not reroll another class? This is the cards we as hunters are dealt. In order to maximize our DPS we have to time our shots and chug mana pots till we bleed it. I average 700-800 DPS depending on the fight as an MM hunter. While its not OMGAMAZING I do think I play pretty well. One of the hidden joys I get is when people say hunters can't DPS. We can DPS if the hunter puts in the effort and focus on it. While I agree I think its lame we have to put forth a lot more effort and time to get the same results as other classes who mash 3 buttons with stopcasting, I do not think its ok to just "not bother" and be content with subpar DPS when you can do better.

 

svengarlic

I don't understand where the 1.15% dps from 1% crit is coming from.

 

Xavias

Mortal Shots.