I'm not very much into or very good at PvP so I don't know exactly how the balance is at the moment, but from what I can gather hunters aren't exactly at the top of the food chain now. Would they be overpowered by being able to shoot on the run? Would they be able to kill casters from max range without getting hit? Most melee it have ways to get to/slow a hunter and there is still a deadzone there.

Apologies for being a PvP nublet, but just trying to see the issues that would crop up as I appreciate that Blizzard try to balance both PvE and PvP.

That comment was in reference to the statement about interchanging mages and warlocks with hunters. If the original comment referred to rogues, naturally, the armor comment would've been moot.

No one in this thread is saying hunter dps isn't competitive. The general consensus of the thread is that the skill curve is considerably more drastic in relation to putting out competitive dps than it is for any other class in the game. You can be a crap mage and still pump out more dps than a crap hunter, but you couldn't pump out more dps than a great hunter with a decent ping. Hunters just require a larger learning curve.

And a lot of mobs are immune to hunter traps in raid instances, and you're right, traps aren't reliable CC, even if you're survival spec. For one thing, you have to pull mobs out and drag them into the trap, as opposed to just targeting a mob and CC'ing it, which is what you'd do as any other class. When possible, I try to make sure that my traps aren't the only form of CC, and from my experience in raids it's abnormal for hunter traps to be the primary form of CC. Once again, this isn't our primary form of utility. We have no real primary utility at this point in the game.



I haven't seen a lot of hunters suffer severe aggro management issues since I started playing with non-retarded hunters. If your FD is resisted you either a) misdirect if that's an option for the particular fight, or b) hit the escape key and cool your heels for a couple of seconds, same as any other dps class. Aggro management is one of the simpler concepts for hunters to grasp, especially as ranged classes has a 130% aggro threshold compared to the 110% for melee.

I think you're overestimating. (Or I underestimate scorpids) I see an auto-shot/pet hunter doing 500ish DPS, a hunter using his specials incorrectly dropping to low 400's, and a hunter with proper timing hitting 900-1000. This is assuming T4 level gear. (which I have the most personal experience with)

I'd love to be able to AFK at 875 DPS. But I seriously doubt that is possible.

Sorry, but I played a druid tank for most of TBC, and I honestly have to say no class is worse than rogues when it comes to not paying attention to threat and taking aggro. Why do you think there are so many spoofs of rogues about DPS/threat meters in online comics and none about hunters? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

I'm always on the make for dps tricks, so when i saw the above macro I thought I'd give it a try since I had not seen a suggestion like it before. Dr Boom says no dice, eats alot more mana, for a very marginal increases over a standard steady stomper.

As for hunters, their is a huge divide between those in the know and those who are not. As had been said before because of the sheer number of hidden mechanics its impossible for someone to accidentally get it right. I'd also like to put forward that some hunters haven't dealt well with the transition to the BC style of hunter spam. Pre 2.0 their was only so much you could shoot your self in the foot with, worst you could do was miss a shot every ten seconds with aimed. In BC their is a startling variety of ways to shoot your self in the foot, ranging from kill command clipping to negating autoshot entirely with poorly timed steady shots.

2.3 is where we are getting a looking at by blizz, so we can hope that they have decided to make us less dependent on macro's or insane timing.

Fair enough. That makes sense.

You are partially right. hunters do not have an inherent aggro reduction like rogues ( which I believe is -30%). However, being a ranged class is in of itself an aggro reduction, as it takes more aggro to pull threat from ranged ( I believe that may be 30% also, however I could not find a reference). Basically, the two would be a wash, as long as the hunter is a certain distance from the boss, then their threat is equal to rogue. I am sure someone will correct the if I am mistaken.

It's something I always have trouble understanding, and this thread seems like an opportunity to hear some perspectives. If I, as a rogue, had a full aggro wipe every 30 seconds, I would almost never have to worry about threat, ever again. ( aside from the occasional resist, but c'mon, its a 30 second cooldown. I can do it once every 5 minutes, and that has been more than enough in most cases. I have heard that its very mana expensive, but I have no frame of reference, i havent played hunter past 45, and that has been a while.

I'm not interested in class warfare. I posted my own personal experience, no need for you to take it as a bash, since we have never met. My own experience has been that GENERALY SPEAKING hunters attract a certain type of player ( you could say that about every class, but this thread is about a specific class). Sorry you took it personally. We're a little above that here, arent we?

To be a little more selfish and casual unfriendly, I'm glad that hunters have their own mechanism that's completely different than any other class out there.

Back in late January/early February, when I had just hit 70 and started doing heroics, I would get absolutely slaughtered by the same frost mage, from my guild who I run instances with, on damage meter. It was a tough transition going from a 10/11 sec aim shot rotation to the new steady shot rotation, and the itemization was horrible for the blue gears we could get from quests/5mans. And honestly, there wasn't that much information out there. Hunters had the lowest priority in raid, and I can't blame the raid leader: my damage doesn't justify my raid spot, when a mage/lock/rogue would do far more damage than me.

But it's something like this that got me thinking, there had to be something that I'm doing wrong. I started doing research, and started following EJ forums religiously. Thanks to the theorycrafters here, I found out how steady shot worked, and how to best utilize it in a rotation. And with the adjustment, I was able to (somewhat) reclaim my spot on the meters, no longer humiliated. The whole learning experience was rewarding for me.

I do realize that most casual players will not dig through 50 page threads on EJ to figure out how to play their class. The lack of information is Blizzard's fault, but I am glad how Hunter class works. It requires thorough knowledge of the class mechanics, timing, and ability to adjust on-the-fly. Not to flame, but (personally) I would hate to be a frost mage and simply spam 1 button for the duration of the fight. It's also the reason I walked away from the green pasture of BM for the slightly more dynamic build of Survival, sacrificing a little bit of personal dps. While our class mechanics is screwy, unintended by Blizzard, and difficult to comprehend, I view the curses as gifts for the same reasons. People might complain Huntering does not "make sense" to players (at first), but I'm definitely glad that I rolled one. =)

I think everyone here is all for the "hunters mechanics are different" concept.

However, it really is not fun when you lose large amounts of DPS to a series of mechanics that are, lets face it, completely stupid and dare I say "senselessly implemented" with little to no thought for other sister mechanics such as haste.

Theres nothing worse than delaying your autoshot because you were lucky enough to get a AoTH proc, or popping rapid fire, and getting very little benefit from it because of both the GCD and 0.5sec autoshot rule.

I mean the sheer mechanics for the hunter class are so outragously disasterous for high-latency players. The thing I worry about mostly is that I honestly don't think Blizzard know about these issues as intimately as we all do. If they do know about this, I am very concerned about their priorities for class balance and general playability.

I've done fights where my pet does around 550 - 600 dps on wws, none of these fights allow you to actually go afk tho, and from a different point of view, ending up doing 900 dps, while you could do 1200 to 1500 is a big trade off aswell.

Not that it is a major point--I was mostly mentioning it to say how lazy Hunters can easily be resistant to actually learning the advanced shot rotations since they can "somewhat" get away with being lazy in the right situations. YMMV on the exact DPS figures one can do while AFK, but as BM spec with solid gear, it's actually quite a lot.

Of course, I don't mean totally AFK when I'm saying that high.. one would probably have to use cooldowns and all that... and if you throw in spamming Arcane Shot or something randomly, I don't think it would be hard to reach. Depends on gear level completely though. At the very least, it's in the mid 700s DPS range with good gear, simply based on the fact that around 65% of the damage of even a good BM Hunter is just Auto/Pet damage.

But, like I said, it's a minor point... I think it just reinforces the notion in some people's mind that they don't have to do much. If a Hunter can stand in one spot Auto-shotting, using TBW, and using Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot somewhat randomly and do "ok" DPS, I think it has a tendancy to induce complacency for the less hardcore types. Of course, in a dedicated raiding guild, that isn't going to fly--but, if the WoWJustu stats show us anything, it's probably that most aren't in a guild that cares about high-end DPS optimization quite yet.

Hmm... How did you come to this conclusion? I would think that Hunters generate less aggro than most DPS classes, due to fact that around 30% of a BM Hunter's damage comes from a source not attributed to himself. Rogues and Warriors have a smaller passive aggro reduction than that. Honestly, though, I'm not sure what -other- method of aggro reduction one would need than a 30 second full wipe.

But again, I think this is just an example of a Hunter mechanic than almost reinforces that "laziness is OK." It's a get out of jail free card, because it can be used in a reactive fashion so often. A Hunter could pull aggro 10 times in a fight and still probably survive. A Rouge can do it once, a Warrior or Shaman can do it zero times, etc. Bad Hunters don't bother learning aggro management because, like the DPS issue, they do "ok" without it.

I feel like the fact that the class generally does so "ok" even when people aren't really trying that hard encourages them to stick with the status quo and not delve into the total nightmare that is Hunter mechanics. Of course, if the learning curve or barrier to entry was a lot smaller, it probably would be less of an issue.

Ranged has a 30% threat threshold before pulling aggro. Melee has a 10% threat threshold before pulling aggro. Rogues and kitty druids have an innate -29% threat modifier to all their attacks.

As a simplistic example - If a tank is sitting on 1000 threat, a rogue would need to generate 1549 damage to pull aggro. A hunter pulls aggro at 1300 damage from ranged. The rogue has ~20% more wiggle room with regards to threat generation from damage before pulling aggro compared to a hunter.

I believe your perceived threat issue that hunters have is a mix of the following:
1) There is no threat reduction modifier tagged to any hunter attacks
2) In a typical 3 paladin raid, there is no space for salvation on a hunter. Hunters would require Might, Kings & Wisdom from the paladins. Rogues want Might & Kings. Salvation would typically be the last buff to round it off on a rogue so the threat reduction on a rogue would typically end up being around 50%.

We have the best aggro wipe available as it has an extremely low cooldown, but hunters also have the highest threat per damage of any ranged DPS class as most offensive casters will take threat reduction talents that are within their respective talent trees. Therefore a hunter will accumulate aggro a lot faster - you will see them ratchet up the threatmeter extremely quickly even after feigning. Especially marks hunters as they typically sink a lot of points in improving their ranged damage.

With regards to the original topic, 3 things are required to have a hunter who 'gets it'
1) Additional mods that are pretty much required to max out DPS performance, especially an autoshot timer which isn't in the standard UI
2) Knowledge of class mechanics - some of which aren't made clear anywhere in WoW (e.g. not clipping autoshot while casting specials, autoshot having an invisible 0.5sec priming timer)
3) A good sense of timing. No other class more or less requires you to have a metronome at the back of your head for optimal damage.

I find the 3rd one to be the hardest to check off. It's easy to teach somebody what mods to get & the class mechanics. It's extremely hard to teach somebody how to keep time and fit everything together.

I'd love a cast bar like that >.<

That would be an awesome add-on, like adding in DDR type gameplay into an MMO.

You know, Spiritwolf did a video where he was playing WSG and he edited it to look like he replaced his UI with DDR's, and I always thought that would work insanely well for Hunters...

Someone should definitely do this, even if only for laughs.

Actually that's not even very far fetched. Scorpids can push out numbers like 600dps and i'm sure you could autoshot for 275dps Might even test that on fights like Morogrim sometime.

My annoyance with the class is just lack of clear facts. Blizzard tell you nothing, hence you have to be aware of other peoples tests, observations and spredsheets if you're not big on theorycrafting or math (which i honestly am not).

While i like finding out new things about my class and thus improving my performance, i find it utterly frustrating to pick the right gear updates to maximise my performace. Especially when it comes to ranged weapons and haste gear (plus changing my spec accordingly). I'm starting to get utterly lost even tho my performance is ok compared to the rest of our players dps wise.
The fact that i'm thinking about rotations (and not clipping my AS) and maximizing scorpid dps, chain potting, MD:ing tanks, healing my pet (cause no one else does) is just getting to be to much for my nerves tbh especially atm since we're on Kael'thas. Just a madhouse of events.

I've only played a hunter for few months now, it's a highly enjoyable class, but really needs some simplification/clarification love from blizzard. There's just way too many things they're not letting us know about atm.

A small logging addon would do make the clipping avoidance dance a lot more simple. It could just show the difference between AS and special for like the last 5 shots or so...a bit like Eavesdrop for hunters.

Trying do add something worthwhile to the aggro pulling aspect of classes:

While rogues do overaggro from time to time (and in my experiences no less than hunters do), the consequences of this action are soft. Usually the mob/boss just turns around, oneshots the rogue and the action continues.
Sure ... there are encounters where a cleave into the collected melees or a shadowflame like mechanic into the raid will cause a wipe, but on top of these possible hazardous events you have to keep in mind that an aggro loss to a ranged (like a hunter e.g.) usually results in severe DPS loss (because of ranged issues, running, ...) and sometimes in the loss of a finely constructed (and necessary) raid positioning.
To put it blatantly: from a tank perspective an aggro loss to a ranged is WAY MORE hazardous than to a melee.

Couple this with the fact that hunters have the best aggro management skill in the game (I don't think anyone is disputing that) and you can maybe understand why aggro losses to hunters are being received as harsh as they are. And I second the impresion that some hunters (even some very very good ones I know) seem to handle feing death reactionary and not preliminary. Hope this does not come across as a class flame, I am more than aware that it is just an anecdote. And I really appreciate the work you have to go through to top the meters.

So what is hard in watching omen/ktm/whatever? Hunters have uber skill for that and rogues have 'ohshit' button + feint. Both should not overaggro as they have tools to prevent it, if they do then well...

Anyhow isn't point of this thread was hunter mechanics? So few points:
- hunters at top skill level are not fun to play (on longer term at least, quick burn out rate)
- itemization is broken (INT, MP5; AP instead of RAP; no melee weapons with lower dps and better stats like caster ones)
- mana bar don't fit the class (energy would)
- arrows/bullets are just annoying
- difference between average and good hunter is GIGANTIC
- no synergy with melee nor caster group (getting from not giving out); only truly benefit from SP (pet heal + mana for hunter)
- terrible pet controls (I think Dune2 had better)
- terrible pet aggro when grinding (with good gear)
- no nice enchants for ranged weapons (like mongoose)

Short version: Hunter class have a lot of problems and after TBC finding proper hunters for guild is like epic quest. I already hear jokes like "Hunters? Is it a new hero class?"

P.S: Is it me or this thread is exactly like Hunting Hunters... some time ago?

Hello everyone, been reading the forum for awhile but this is my first post.
I'll have to admit, Im not yet lvl70. I am full BM spec and dont have a few tools for trade yet. I have always played an end-game healer and never had any interest in dps classes. I recently came back to the game and wanted a change, so I rolled a hunter.
If I remember correctly, hunter's were in the same boat back when the game was released as they are now. Finding the good hunters was a real job at the time. When the hunter patch came out, it helped alot to clean up the reputation of the class to some degree. As it is now, the large portion of hunters are right back in the same spot before the hunter patch
As some have stated, alot of people play the class because it is so easy to start with and to level quickly. The real problems don't start to arise until you get to later stages of the leveling game.(62+) By the time alot of hunters get to the point of having SS and KC, they have already been playing a considerable amount of time playing the "wrong" way. Now they have to learn alot of things to be effective and keep up so to speak. You can seperate hunters into two ranks; those that know about the .5 sec rule, and those that don't.
It is really amazing to me to talk to other hunters I have grouped with and they ask me "how in the world are you doing that kind of damage". When I mention shot weaving and the .5 sec rule, even alot of the level 70s have no clue what I am talking about.
To give my opinion to the original poster on the topic, I believe that the hidden things involved with the hunter class is why so many fail when it comes to moving up into a raid guild for progression.
I also would like to say that had it not been for this forum, my knowledge of the hunter class would be nowhere near what it is now, and I have more to learn. Thank you guys for having a place where people can actually read posts that are infomative. Thank you everyone for the informative posts.

From my point of view Hunters are a really good class IF they are played by a good player. In our guild we have 4 extremly good hunters that are topping dps meters (except for surv martyr ). At the same time they are able to do CC with traps and whatnot. And because they are so good compared to some of our other players often 3 or 4 come to the raid, always with me in group (feral druid) and often they get shadow priest.

the moral for me is very simple - while some classes may be easier to play properly, it is always more important to look at the lpayer behind the toon. But this seems to be a pretty trivial statement

Its not a complaint of pulling aggro, but more of being stuck auto-shooting for 30 seconds if either of your first two FD's are resisted. In an encounter with multiple adds, FD only gets more interesting. While others may also get threat capped at some point, a threat capped hunter is doing significantly lower dps.. especially if there are not four paladins in the raid.

I had a prime example of that lastnight, when we had our first kill on illidan, during the first phase, my first two feign deaths resisted (which hardly ever happened once, let alone twice).

Going into phase 2 you have some more adds up and its alot more likely to get a resist, again i had 2 consecutive resists on feign death, with them both being the first ones, you feel like you are doing fuck all, seeying our MT usually runs around bandaging people my alternative job was fullfilled allready (seriously there are 2 targets to dps here but still).

First of all, I'd like to say that this thread has been completely mind-blowing because I hadn't the foggiest idea how hunters worked.

That being said: From this and the Dragonspine Trophy thread I now have the impression that hunters should simply avoid talents and items that give unpredictable haste procs altogether since shot rotations have to be very precise and missing one due to a haste proc takes a substantial toll on your DPS. Is this true, or too simplistic of a conclusion?