They should fix trap positioning and then make the enrage really hard. It's a funny element but now you don't need to use it.
I'd be fine with it if she dropped traps in a sensible spot, considering that Maiev is retarded and drops the traps sometimes halfway across the map, it would suck to add a really shitty element of randomness to a fight.
Yeah, thats why I said fix positioning first then urge the raid to use it. Whit the current trap placement it would make a way too luck based encounter, if they make a real enrage. But actually this is probably the reason the enrage is so soft. They didn't manage to ensure a useful trap placement and this enrage is the workaround.
During the phase5/enrage phase does he still drain soul after maiev drops a trap? I get heart attacks when my MT is running towards a trap that a bunch of people are facing at, but I have not noticed him doing draw soul at that time.
In the future, we intend to ignore traps that are too far but I wanted some clarification on this.
Sometimes he uses Draw Soul, sometimes he doesn't. Your whole raid needs to be aware of the trap positioning and how the tank is going to get there. If he needs to face Illidan into the raid to get to the trap, the raid needs to move to stay out of that cone.
We've used a trap once. All the other times it was just too far away, or he Flame Crashed right where the tank would need to stand, or other stupid stuff. Eventually it just became easier to deal with the enrage and not have to worry about wildly repositioning a hard-hitting mob, and ensuring people still avoided Soul Draw and the running healers stayed spread for Agonizing. We even pulled off a sub-15 minute kill without using a trap, if memory serves.
[Ninja Edit]: Checked our WWS, it was 14:48 with no traps.
We've used a trap once. All the other times it was just too far away, or he Flame Crashed right where the tank would need to stand, or other stupid stuff. Eventually it just became easier to deal with the enrage and not have to worry about wildly repositioning a hard-hitting mob, and ensuring people still avoided Soul Draw and the running healers stayed spread for Agonizing. We even pulled off a sub-15 minute kill without using a trap, if memory serves.
[Ninja Edit]: Checked our WWS, it was 14:48 with no traps.
Using or not using traps doesn't exactly cut much off your kill time so..
Either way, if your tank can safely get to the trap you're silly not to use it although certainly not required.
I'm looking for some P3 positioning advice, we're beginning to clear P2 almost all the time (other than some silly deaths from walking to the eye beam), so this is our show stopper at the moment.
We use this for P3-P4 (never made it to P5 yet, 36% best try) and it's my firm belief that we are spreading way too wide. Any specific pointers to change our positioning? I'm lobbying a strategy where the raid would collapse before shadow demons like in Raggy with the Sons, but my raid leader isn't exactly thrilled about it. Would that do it, or should we just generally be closer to each other?
Tacitus my guild spreads out just as much if not more than your picture is showing for Demon phases. We just spread it out so that every "group" (we have a west, middle, east grouping for the phase) has a couple melee, a couple ranged, and a healer or two. Frost trap is dropped shortly after the phase changes and we just go from there. What exactly are you having issues with? Kililng the demons before they get to people? Spreading out for the flame burst?
A bit of both, to be honest. When we have shitty luck and the demons all zoom off in different directions, people start panicking and gather up in the middle, taking several flame bursts. This gets them and the demons targets killed.
How do you cope with a situation where the demons zoom off towards the 2 ends of the raid?
A bit of both, to be honest. When we have shitty luck and the demons all zoom off in different directions, people start panicking and gather up in the middle, taking several flame bursts. This gets them and the demons targets killed.
How do you cope with a situation where the demons zoom off towards the 2 ends of the raid?
Hunter traps, Imp Blizzard, Earthbind totem, and Seed all focused on the area that they spawn, starting a few seconds before. Ranged kill those with the shortest tethers, and everyone stays spread out until the Flame Burst after the demons. Then melee rushes in and kills those demons remaining.
Exceptions to the rules are when the warlock tank is Demon'd, then the FR tanks usually sacrifice themselves to kill it.
Basically, we keep the raid in a fairly narrow sector, but spread lengthwise. That way the demons will all run towards all of the raid, instead of having one go one way and another the other way. The timers on the Flame Bursts won't let you collapse at one point. Iirc, you'll have a burst just a few seconds after the demons spawn.
We're now using this positioning for P4: http://i31.tinypic.com/2r73wd1.jpg and after working out a few kinks, making to P5 a few times, I think it's all about repetition now. Cheers, as always.
This is quite scary, we had our first full night of attempts yesterday, and we have EXACTLY the same problems as Tactitus had. We are getting through phase 2 perfectly multiple times in a row as well now, we even also got him to 36% on our best attempt. The main problem we are having is Demons spawning, people running of to kill them immediately, getting hit by 5 Flame Bursts and dropping dead. Also the Warlock tank getting the Demon, but being way too close to Illidan with no time to kill the Demon.
Tonight we will be going again, and we will be using a new positioning/execution for phase 4. The warlock tank will simply move back a bit when Demons are about to spawn, seeing as Illidan's Shadow Blast has a 100 yard range this should be no problem. This should give us more time killing his Demon if he gets one. The DPS will stay stationary 3-5 seconds after the Demons spawn for the Flame Burst to come and then nuke the Demons down. Ofcourse this doesn't make a lot of difference DPS wise, there will always be a demon the ranged can attack even while standing still. Its just the melee that has to wait a bit.
Any additions/tips anyone can give me to this change?
EDIT: Also another question I had, during phase 5 and enrages, he still transforms into Demon form right (not entirely sure of this in the first place, cant find it anywhere but still I remember reaiding about it)? Seeing a he can't be kited into traps when in Demon form, does this also mean his Flame Burst will do 50% more damage?
EDIT: Also another question I had, during phase 5 and enrages, he still transforms into Demon form right (not entirely sure of this in the first place, cant find it anywhere but still I remember reaiding about it)? Seeing a he can't be kited into traps when in Demon form, does this also mean his Flame Burst will do 50% more damage?
Illidan's Enrage is cancelled when he becomes trapped or turns into his Demon Form.
Solidus Guildmaster of < Security >
This valorous visitation of a bygone vexation, stands vivified and has vowed to vanquish these venal and virulent vermin vanguarding vice and vouchsafing the violently vicious and voracious violation of volition.
We changed tactics as follows as we had the same problem as you have in p4. Everybody spreads out und is about 50y away from Illidan. When the demons spawn the first attacking them are shadowpriests and any ranged DD having range on a demon. After the SECOND flameburst the melees join in and finish the demons off. There is enough time between the 2nd and 3rd flameburst to kill the demons and therefore no need to hurry. To slow the demons we let our hunters place ice traps when he transforms into demon. It is (from my pov) very important that at least 1 trap is in direct line from Illidan to the warlock tank. I hope this may help you.
As far as I know, he is not enraged in demonform. But the Agonizing Flames in p3 have their damage doubled making them tick for about 6k.
When the demons are about to spawn, we take some steps back (in addition to being spread out and away from Illidan during his transformation), a team of ranged DDs (Elemental Shaman and Hunters work great) watches for Demon on the Warlock. As they spawn, they get some ranged AEs (traps and earthbind totem), then Melee teams finish them off (using Hamstring and Crippling Poison to keep them at a crawl). The demons are usually down before the second AE, and even if they aren't, the fact that we use teams on each demon has never cost us high casualties (as far as I remember, 2 or 3 people since november).
This is quite scary, we had our first full night of attempts yesterday, and we have EXACTLY the same problems as Tactitus had. We are getting through phase 2 perfectly multiple times in a row as well now, we even also got him to 36% on our best attempt. The main problem we are having is Demons spawning, people running of to kill them immediately, getting hit by 5 Flame Bursts and dropping dead. Also the Warlock tank getting the Demon, but being way too close to Illidan with no time to kill the Demon.
Tonight we will be going again, and we will be using a new positioning/execution for phase 4. The warlock tank will simply move back a bit when Demons are about to spawn, seeing as Illidan's Shadow Blast has a 100 yard range this should be no problem. This should give us more time killing his Demon if he gets one. The DPS will stay stationary 3-5 seconds after the Demons spawn for the Flame Burst to come and then nuke the Demons down. Ofcourse this doesn't make a lot of difference DPS wise, there will always be a demon the ranged can attack even while standing still. Its just the melee that has to wait a bit.
Any additions/tips anyone can give me to this change?
EDIT: Also another question I had, during phase 5 and enrages, he still transforms into Demon form right (not entirely sure of this in the first place, cant find it anywhere but still I remember reaiding about it)? Seeing a he can't be kited into traps when in Demon form, does this also mean his Flame Burst will do 50% more damage?
My guild found it helpful to use raid marks on our meelee. This made it easier for them to be aware of their positioning relative to each other, to avoid zerging the same demon and subsequently dying to flame burst.
I learned this fight (tanking at least) after having killed him numerous times as a priest so I knew the ways we had wiped in the past and had idea's on how to avoid it already. I almost think it would be better to watch videos of wipes because of the flames instead of full kill videos.
The way it was explained to me was kite from triangle to triangle (they are inside the big circle by the pillars) in a slightly rectangular pattern. Avoiding eye beams was my first priority (since typically the person to yell at people when they screw this up). After that it was moving in a kite path without toasting my raid. Then working on building aggro (they dps'ed my target second since we had a more experienced tank on the other add). Finally I worked on reducing my overall damage, this meant working on moving as little as possible while still getting out of the blazes as quickly as possible.
Also having people call out the eye beamsis a huge help, especially while learning. I wasn't very experienced as a tank in general when I was doing this so maybe my tunnel vision is a bit worse but you have a lot to think about while learning this fight.
After having done it a few times now I can see why people consider it simple but there is a lot to think about when you start and if you try to do it all at once it's going to be bad.
Ok guys I do have a question about melee DPS on this fight. We've been killing Illidan for about 2 months now and we did not have a single fight that a melee DPS tops the meter. Then by checking some WWS reports (will list below) I saw that some guilds do have rogues/fury wars topping it.
We (melee) DPS him on Phase 1, Phase 3/4/5 while in Human form. Phase 2 we swing a couple hits on the Flames but there's no notable damage.
Are we doing something wrong? I mean we know what are we doing, we do have a good gear, we make use of spreadsheets and stuff, we pump out everything we can to do a good amount of damage, so I wanted to share with you guys what is possibly happening.
Here is the report of last night (Yay for clearing BT/Hyjal in twodays!):
Short kills lend themselves to melee topping the meters. We had exactly 1 demon phase the entire fight in the wws you linked, meaning they were on the boss most of the time. We focus my add down first and it dies before it drops it's 5th ring of fire on the ground. For reference I pick it up, run as far south-east as I can and I'm about directly ontop of the warglaive when it dies. Then the melee switch sides and usually kill the other add before our other tank runs out of room in his area.
If your raid doesn't have that kind of dps then your p2 tanks will likely be out in the middle of no where and the melee will around around doing nothing for long periods of time.
I have no idea how many demon phases you would have in a 16m fight but that is certainly a lot of time spent standing around doing nothing.
You shouldn't declare as a general rule that melee shouldn't hit the Flames in Phase 2...I mean, sometimes it won't be an option but most of the time melee DPS will be able to get to at least one Flame. If you're farming Illidan then obviously you're doing well, but given the spacing/movement requirements for most of the fight melee should be coming out on top.
Yes, you are right. Taking a deep look on the reports I find out that rogues of those guilds have a 25% of damage on the Flames of Azzinoth. We had like 0. Also we had 3 Demon Phases wich means too movent, too spreanding for Flame Bursts blablabla. I will try to work that out with my guildmates. Thanks for the tip guys.
I have a question regarding Agonizing Flames. I can't recall seeing Agonizing Flames on any melee DPS damaging Illidan. However, I've seen it being cast on the Main Tank many times. How does the targeting mechanic work? Am I missing something and melee get it regularly too? (as they get Parasites). Melee are usually clumped up so the debuff has a high risk of hitting other people.
I can sometimes top damage on Illidan but it all depends on how many Demon Phases we have or how long I get to DPS one of the flames. It all depends on your guilds strategy with the Demon Phases (ours just have melee sit back) and the luck you get with the eye beams on the Flames. Regardless, the melee can top the meters on the fight, or should be damn near competitive (unless your guild doesn't allow melee on the demons and the fight is like 20-25 mintues long). Shorter the fight, the more the melee will tend to Dominate.
If you're in melee range you will not be targetted with Agonizing Flames. Our MT is a Tauren and he has been targetted with Agonizing Flames, but I believe this is because the ability can target whoever is 1st on threat regardless of if the target is in melee range or not. If this wasn't the cause then you would see Tauren Enhancement and Tauren DPS Warriors get agonizing flames more often.
Agonizing will definetely slam your melee if you aren't in melee range. I don't recall the exact circumstances, whether it be backing out for a MT parasite or the MT dying, but all four of our melee did get Agonizing flames (because they were all standing together). So the rules for the ability to me dictate that if you're #1 on threat or not in melee range then you can get agonozing flames.
01/18/08, 9:05 AM
Similar Threads
