I normally tank the flames, but on our last lockout, our MT spent his money on beer and poker instead of a game card, so I had to step in
The hardest part about Shear and Shield Block was definitely to unlearn a long time of keeping SB up all the time.
As for the log posted above, that's weird, I usually have around 150-200ms, and I've had some really close calls, but the block has always been up(of course, those times may just have been lucky "normal" blocks).
And on a slightly unrelated note, what addon is that Zedd? Looks handy.
Oh and as for parasites, as far as I know we just use marks on two mages so people will know where to run.
Hey, i'm from the same guild. I can comfirm that our MT does not turn too much away when side stepping Illidan out of the flames.
What an original thought was, that after landing in phase 3, the server could possibly think that the MT was behind illidan, as he will be dragging him across the room to the new tank spot at quite a fast pace. It doesn't explain why this happens in phase 1 though.
The "failure to block even if it's up" seems to be a function of your latency and the server not recognizing that it's up.
On our first Illidan tries our MT was visiting his parents in France with a dodgy 180ms+ latency and he was having real issues getting SB up in time to block Shear. As soon as he returned home to a better connection I think he has only eaten 2 Shears in 4 kills.
Basically on a slow connection its a tough ask for your MT. He has to see the attack being cast (which could be anything up to 0.25sec late due to latency) and then hit SB within the 1.5sec window with enough time to spare for the server to register it (again subject to latency). If he is not 100% conversant with the cast pattern and/or his reactions on a slow connection is anything less than mongoose-like then he is going to eat a Shear.
Good lord, we had discussions similar to these over pre-nerf RoS and Deaden/shield/latency interaction. It's easy to blame everything on latency but it's not always the case.
The most significant factor is the fact that if you have 250ms latency, it takes 125 for server messages to arrive to you, and 125 for your messages to arrive at the server. Saying mob castbars appear 250ms after it happens on server reality is wrong.
That aside, latency has no bearing on sloppy server processing/multiple thread interactions/whatever. There's definitely a weird issue at work here. Latency isn't it.
Edit: As a mini-appendix, we play with ~500ms average. Shears are extremely, -extremely- rare, even when we had a new tank on Illidan last week.
We are in the process of killing this guy. Last night we have had some major hiccups with the demon > human transition.
WWS seemed to indicate that rolling lifebloom crit heals on the warlock tank, and even residual dots on Illidan are sufficient to pull him off the tank, even after landing a shield slam. BoP works, but I don't like relying on it.
Is there a rule for exactly when the aggro reset occurs at the end of the demon phase? When can the tank begin to dps while knowing that his attacks are actually generating threat and not simply wasting rage and GCD's?
It seems that clicking off lifebloom and overwriting CoA is a given. Are there any specific strategies that deal with this issue? Occasionally we have no living hunter, and this is costing us a handful of people each attempt (usually the mages and locks we need to deal with shadow demons).
I believe that tanks can generate aggro on him as soon as he falls down in demon form and starts the transition. Our paladin tank always starts casting Avenger Shield and Exorcism during the transition at least, I know as much from targetting him.
We are in the process of killing this guy. Last night we have had some major hiccups with the demon > human transition.
WWS seemed to indicate that rolling lifebloom crit heals on the warlock tank, and even residual dots on Illidan are sufficient to pull him off the tank, even after landing a shield slam. BoP works, but I don't like relying on it.
Is there a rule for exactly when the aggro reset occurs at the end of the demon phase? When can the tank begin to dps while knowing that his attacks are actually generating threat and not simply wasting rage and GCD's?
It seems that clicking off lifebloom and overwriting CoA is a given. Are there any specific strategies that deal with this issue? Occasionally we have no living hunter, and this is costing us a handful of people each attempt (usually the mages and locks we need to deal with shadow demons).
I didn't even think to see if he is tauntable.
You won't lose the Mages or Warlocks if they let their DoTs run out before the transition. Tell your Mages to Iceblock if they have an ignite running etc.
It's an aggro wipe and if everyone stops dps/healing at the correct time the only possible aggro that should pull him off your MT would be HoT tailing off.
We are in the process of killing this guy. Last night we have had some major hiccups with the demon > human transition.
WWS seemed to indicate that rolling lifebloom crit heals on the warlock tank, and even residual dots on Illidan are sufficient to pull him off the tank, even after landing a shield slam. BoP works, but I don't like relying on it.
Is there a rule for exactly when the aggro reset occurs at the end of the demon phase? When can the tank begin to dps while knowing that his attacks are actually generating threat and not simply wasting rage and GCD's?
It seems that clicking off lifebloom and overwriting CoA is a given. Are there any specific strategies that deal with this issue? Occasionally we have no living hunter, and this is costing us a handful of people each attempt (usually the mages and locks we need to deal with shadow demons).
I didn't even think to see if he is tauntable.
Lifeblooms will only crit for like 3k, maybe 3.5, any tank would just smoke that threat wise with an heroic strike+shield slam. In this thread however, there's quite a few stories of aggro not resetting at all, so you might have had that. We never had an issue, even when our tanks has to wait a few seconds for healers to get in range before he engages Illidan. He usually starts beating on him as soon as he goes back to human form during the little transition, but sometimes when illidan is pretty far and there's no healer in range, he'll just wait and pop him when he's done transforming, and at that time when illidan targets someone, it's definitely not the lock, it's either me(lifeblooms going over the raid to heal the last flame burst), a shaman(chain heal) or priest(coh). And the tank will still take him back instantly because it's just a little healing.
If you think lifeblooms are what kills you though, you could just ask your druid to keep rolling it until the transition is done. I usually keep mine rolling because the lock will lifetap during the transition since he couldn't do it while tanking, and with a full stack he can chain lifetap to full mana easily, and it doesn't bother me since I can do it while moving toward the tank and stacking hots on him.
I had Shield Block issues on 3 sequential Shears. The first one caused a wipe, the other 2 were the first 2 Shears on the very next attempt. 3 instances in a row where my Shield Block didn't activate until the exact 1000th of a second the Shear hit me.
05:18'04.062 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:18'04.062 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:18'04.062 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
05:26'02.718 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:26'02.718 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:26'02.718 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
05:26'27.656 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:26'27.656 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:26'27.656 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
I had Shield Block issues on 3 sequential Shears. The first one caused a wipe, the other 2 were the first 2 Shears on the very next attempt. 3 instances in a row where my Shield Block didn't activate until the exact 1000th of a second the Shear hit me.
05:18'04.062 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:18'04.062 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:18'04.062 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
05:26'02.718 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:26'02.718 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:26'02.718 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
05:26'27.656 Wrylac gains Shield Block
05:26'27.656 Wrylac gains Reinforced Shield
05:26'27.656 Wrylac is afflicted by Shear
There really is nothing more to this than just "hit shield block sooner".
The server has the make the roll for hit/block/dodge/parry before it issues you with the debuff, so this roll is happening before it's showing you as gaining shield block and thus you are a valid target to be hit by the ability.
There really is nothing more to this than just "hit shield block sooner".
The server has the make the roll for hit/block/dodge/parry before it issues you with the debuff, so this roll is happening before it's showing you as gaining shield block and thus you are a valid target to be hit by the ability.
Thanks for the 'LOL press button' advice. There were dozens of other times over the 7 hours we've spent on Illidan where I didn't hit SB any sooner and it was successfully active for the Shear. This was a specific instance in time where the server somehow crapped out. I'm just helping back up information that was posted earlier.
Wrylac, the logs you posted show shield block being hit in the same milisecond that shear lands. That's clearly not early enough. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.
(Unless you mean that you hit shield block a second or so early and it didn't register in the log until the same moment shear landed. That's presumably a lag issue, the end result of which is shield block not registering as having been activated before shear lands. We can't see that from the posted logs though.)
Log timestamps pre-2.4 show the time the message was received by the client. It's fairly possible that network congestion or other server-related issues made what should have been a few hundred milliseconds difference server-side show up as simultaneous timestamps.
(This is just in reply particularly to the 'same millisecond' part of the post. I'm not contradicting my earlier post that server-side shenanigans are at play)
Wrylac, the logs you posted show shield block being hit in the same milisecond that shear lands. That's clearly not early enough. I'm not sure what else you're looking for.
(Unless you mean that you hit shield block a second or so early and it didn't register in the log until the same moment shear landed. That's presumably a lag issue, the end result of which is shield block not registering as having been activated before shear lands. We can't see that from the posted logs though.)
If this were a singular event then there is no issue, I'd likely be blaming myself or lag also. This happened 3 times in a row on with the same events and was registered in the log the exact same way down to the milisecond. It's not like I was eating Shears all night, there was one other Shear I ate that was completely my miss, other than that it didn't happen again. I'm not sure there's a solution, I'm just putting out information.
Prot pally = go all out DPS, bloodlust at will you will not pull agro.
We tried DPS'ing the Paladin's elemental first and got the exact opposite result, even with back to back misdirects. He just couldn't build threat on the target. People who never pull agro were pulling agro almost immediately. He said it due to the fact the mob was an elemental therefore he didn't have reactive threat.
We tried DPS'ing the Paladin's elemental first and got the exact opposite result, even with back to back misdirects. He just couldn't build threat on the target. People who never pull agro were pulling agro almost immediately. He said it due to the fact the mob was an elemental therefore he didn't have reactive threat.
The last few attempts, we gave up and DPS's the warrior's elemental first.
Yeah prot pally is not very good for the first target, mainly because, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, you can't block elemental attacks, so that removes all the holy shield threat, and then he probably uses fire resist aura instead of retribution(at least the WWS seems to show that), so that even less threat. Add to that that in fire res gear, you're gonna look at a pretty crappy +spell amount, so the threat generated by them on this fight is definitely not good. But eh, better than sitting out, and whoever tanks the elems sucks for this fight anyway.
Yeah prot pally is not very good for the first target, mainly because, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, you can't block elemental attacks, so that removes all the holy shield threat, and then he probably uses fire resist aura instead of retribution(at least the WWS seems to show that), so that even less threat. Add to that that in fire res gear, you're gonna look at a pretty crappy +spell amount, so the threat generated by them on this fight is definitely not good. But eh, better than sitting out, and whoever tanks the elems sucks for this fight anyway.
Well I can only speak from experience (we have several 2000+ DPS warlocks as a benchmark).
1 Misdirect, Paladin starts with avenging wrath and goes all out threat. Not having holy shield is minor in this case. I don't tank nor do I know a ton of details about paladin tanking all I will say is never have I seen any DPS pull from our pally tank who's we kill first.
I just checked his armory as well, nothing special in terms of gear aside from the FR of course. 400ish spelldamage, capped def and FR. Assuming your locks soulshatter, hunters FD, rogues vanish etc... nobody should pull even going all out off the paladin tank. I'll ask him further details tomorrow on how exactly he tanks it but again threat has never been an issue.
Yeah prot pally is not very good for the first target, mainly because, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, you can't block elemental attacks, so that removes all the holy shield threat, and then he probably uses fire resist aura instead of retribution(at least the WWS seems to show that), so that even less threat. Add to that that in fire res gear, you're gonna look at a pretty crappy +spell amount, so the threat generated by them on this fight is definitely not good. But eh, better than sitting out, and whoever tanks the elems sucks for this fight anyway.
It's not as bad as it seems on first sight. Prot Warriors do have it better in comparison; not too sure about Ferals. Something which people commonly miss about the Flames of Azzinoth is the fact that they are demons, and while Exorcism isn't the hottest source of threat out there, it does help in making up for the lack of being able to block their attacks. The spell damage I lose from wearing resist gear is also made up for by using Judgement of the Crusader; which I typically don't use in favor of Judgement of Wisdom on other content.
Retribution Aura also isn't that big of a difference; a Prot Paladin at that gear level in resist gear is still likely to have at least 35% avoidance, and with Retribution Aura only dealing it's damage on being hit, with the flames attack speed that's only really 16 threat per second less if you're not using it. Retribution Aura's threat is really only noticable on mobs with really high attack rates or in AoE situations.
I was actually initially against tanking the first flame to die myself, but I've since been doing that a number of times with a Prot Warrior tanking the other flame. The only people that have to hold back slightly are our destruction warlocks as far as I know. It does help a bit we only have deep fire mages though, so warlocks are really the only class that get a consistent chance to outaggro me.
From what others tell me my TPS tends to hover in between 800 to 900 on a Flame; it's not the best possible, but it's typically good enough. I typically tend to have my eyes and mind elsewhere than my threat meter while tanking a Flame though, for obvious reasons.
Last edited by Chicken : 02/29/08 at 10:35 AM.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Phase 2 is not a burn phase anyway, to an extent. Sure, you want to kill the flames as soon as possible, and make Illidan land. However, keeping control of the fights is a good tradeoff for having it last 30 seconds longer.
While learning the fight, we had people pull aggro on the first flame, either due to them being retarded aggro monkeys,or to Omen not being perfectly reliable , due to the flames sharing the same name. We've had shadowpriests pulling aggro, even if on threat meters they were at 70% of the tank's threat. One thing we've added was having somebody reset threat once p2 starts. That should make threat on the first flame accurate, and by the time you get to the second one it doesn't matter that much anyway.
Regarding the shield block issue, latency or server lag can probably account for it. We have a prot paladin maintank Illidan, and he's gotten sheared once as well(and laughed at copiously). It is safe to say, however, that faster reactions usually make up for any server-side lag.
Last edited by wind : 02/29/08 at 4:04 PM.
Reason: line breaks
I have done the search and scanned over most of the pages of this thread but havent found what i was looking for. My guild is new to killing Illidan, tonight will be the 3rd. Our regular warlock tank is not going to be on tonight. I have watched the videos read all i can. I have tanked Leo many times and this seems pretty much the same (minus the shadow demons). To me it seems the highlights are:
- Stand at max range in max SR (obviously)
- Start casting Searing Pain as soon as he hunches up
- Use SoC 2-4 sec. before Demons
I think thats it, if it isnt please fill me in. Other than that is there any pointers that you guys might have to prevent a stupid wipe?
If you're looking for general guidelines, then yes, that's about it. Based on whether your guild dpses Illidan in demon phase or not, you might as well build initial aggro via curse of doom(like on Leotheras) and searing pain spam for the first 10 seconds or so, and then move back once the demons are ready to spawn.
Basically, just play it safe. Unlike Leotheras, the phase you are tanking is not the phase in which the boss is being burst down. Because of that, you can safely just establish a high enough threat ceiling, and then focus on survivability (or twiddle your thumbs)
Last edited by wind : 02/29/08 at 4:27 PM.
Reason: spawn != spam
- Stand at max range in max SR (obviously)
- Start casting Searing Pain as soon as he hunches up
- Use SoC 2-4 sec. before Demons
I think thats it, if it isnt please fill me in. Other than that is there any pointers that you guys might have to prevent a stupid wipe?
- Don't spec nether protection.
One other thing that is useful is to back away to max range before the demons - you don't really want to be close if you get one or more targetted on you.
One other thing that is useful is to back away to max range before the demons - you don't really want to be close if you get one or more targetted on you.
Yeah i figured that. Learned the hard way tanking on Cap.
Ignore the trap unless the tank can run illidan to it in less than 10secs and without turning him toward the raid. Understand, only bother with the trap if maeiv drops it behind the tank, or on its side, and somewhat close. The enrage isn't hard to heal thru at all, to be honest I couldn't really tell the difference everytime he enraged. The tank might get hit for more at once, but with 7-8healers on him, you don't even see the bar go down for more than a split second. The trap however make the kill go a little bit faster, since you do more dmg when he's trapped, and healers can throw dots or what not at him since there's almost no damage.
Funny, I found the change from 9k/4k to 12k/10k EXTREMELY noticeable...
I notice you say 7-8 healers on the MT, but we were bringing 8 total. I assume this means all of your healers are on the MT during the enrage? Anything else you can do, or is it just "trinket, Last Stand, spam heals, and pray nothing stupid happens" to survive the second enrage? For reference, our tank was at ~20.5k HP (which sounds a little low from reading the thread) and he was more or less two-shot within 0.7 seconds in the logs.
Last edited by Incoherence : 03/01/08 at 10:08 PM.
02/25/08, 7:01 AM
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