Well, we had our maintank dying and a feral tanked him for the last 20% (happened several times for other guilds before i guess) on a kill but i can't remember of a news anywhere with a successfully kill from hundred to zero percent with a druid maintanking illidan.
It may not have been perfect, but it sure was fun to do something different for a change.
The real challenge seemed to be the warriors timing their intervenes. A few times one of the warriors jumped the gun and intervened a Flame Crash. But of the 3 attempts, none of the wipes could be attributed to the fact that we were using a Feral MT on Illidan. First wipe was warlock tank death, second was Flame tank death.
From my perspective the only real difference was purely visual.
I'm very sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I don't seem to be able to find it, except for a referance to a mortal strike warriors during a draw soul on the raid. Is Illidan vunerable to Wound Poison to reduce the amount his draw soul heals? As it seems cutting that down by 50k would shave a good amount of time off kills (especially if something goes horribly wrong and he gets turned to the raid) (We had our first poke last week, going for at least 2 days of proper attempts this week)
I'm very sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I don't seem to be able to find it, except for a referance to a mortal strike warriors during a draw soul on the raid. Is Illidan vunerable to Wound Poison to reduce the amount his draw soul heals? As it seems cutting that down by 50k would shave a good amount of time off kills (especially if something goes horribly wrong and he gets turned to the raid) (We had our first poke last week, going for at least 2 days of proper attempts this week)
Yes, he is. We've used a rogue with wound poison for every attempt and kill we've ever done. We had one of our hunters start using aimed shot the other night because our only rogue in the raid at the time got himself killed during the fight.
We got our first kill last night. As is usual for this forum, this thread was enormously helpful. Some specific points that we found helpful:
Tyrian's diagram of a four-point formation for phase 2. We started off using a five-point formation (one at each cardinal direction plus one at the center), which ended up causing a crapton of splash damage between the center group and the outer groups. We were able to get through that, but only barely, and by using spriests in the healer groups. Switching to four-point made the healing massively easier by eliminating inter-group splash damage.
Tyrian's diagram for a "safe" phase 4. We started off doing P4 in a more "freeform" way, using AoEs targeted on Illidan to do some early damage to the demons, but we were unable to reach any level of consistency with that plan. Playing phase 4 more conservatively really helped us nail it down and come out of it consistently without losing anyone.
After that, we managed to substantially boost our raid dps during phases 3/5 by stacking the MT healers on top of the melee. That gave our ranged dps much more room to move in and dps Illidan without worrying about flame stacking.
And finally, timing heroisms was what really clinched the deal for us. We popped heroism in phase 1 and it was up with a couple minutes to spare for phase 5, which is when you really want it.
Thanks a bunch to everyone who posted in this thread, and in every other boss thread. This board has really been an invaluable resource for us.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
After that, we managed to substantially boost our raid dps during phases 3/5 by stacking the MT healers on top of the melee. That gave our ranged dps much more room to move in and dps Illidan without worrying about flame stacking.
Does that mean "Agonizing Flames" has a min-range? If so, how much is it? Can you place the whole raid "outside" of flame-range and avoid it completely? Or is it possible to leave only "safe" targets in flame-range (like mages, palas or rogues)?
After that barrage of questions here's an idea, which worked quite well for us. But first off a little exposition.
We have about two raid-nights of tries under our belts, so we're only starting. Last night in our last try we managed to survive phase 2 for the very first time. Our tanks worked on a slightly different approach to dragging the flames. They dragged them in circles around the glaives like everybody else, but they rotated the same way. Most videos show the tanks dragging the flames first close to the raid, then they flip them around and drag them back farther away from the raid, effectively making rotations in different directions (one clockwise and the other one counter-clockwise).
One of our tanks starts close to the raid, while the other one starts the dragging process farther away from the raid. So when they flip them around and make their way back, they keep the same distance toward each other. This way you prevent charges. We had a few charges in the beginning tries, when our flame-tanks were still overwhelmed by the task, but since they started using the approach I described above, we never had a charge again.
So, if the flames charge the opposite tanks in your raid, try tanking and dragging them this way, maybe it helps.
Does that mean "Agonizing Flames" has a min-range? If so, how much is it? Can you place the whole raid "outside" of flame-range and avoid it completely? Or is it possible to leave only "safe" targets in flame-range (like mages, palas or rogues)?
No it doesn't, he just doesn't cast it on big groups (aka melee camp). The MT can get it and we had one melee get it behind him, when he was the only one in melee range keeping wound poison up. But keep in mind that he can (and will) cast it on your group, when there are only large groups as targets.
I'm pretty sure Agonizing Flames does have a min range. He has never cast it on melee targets for us besides the main tank in our seven or so kills. It's possible he will cast it on a rogue or warrior or other melee class if they are running out for parasites or if your tank is moving him from flames and a melee lags behind.
Does that mean "Agonizing Flames" has a min-range? If so, how much is it? Can you place the whole raid "outside" of flame-range and avoid it completely? Or is it possible to leave only "safe" targets in flame-range (like mages, palas or rogues)?
After that barrage of questions here's an idea, which worked quite well for us. But first off a little exposition.
We have about two raid-nights of tries under our belts, so we're only starting. Last night in our last try we managed to survive phase 2 for the very first time. Our tanks worked on a slightly different approach to dragging the flames. They dragged them in circles around the glaives like everybody else, but they rotated the same way. Most videos show the tanks dragging the flames first close to the raid, then they flip them around and drag them back farther away from the raid, effectively making rotations in different directions (one clockwise and the other one counter-clockwise).
One of our tanks starts close to the raid, while the other one starts the dragging process farther away from the raid. So when they flip them around and make their way back, they keep the same distance toward each other. This way you prevent charges. We had a few charges in the beginning tries, when our flame-tanks were still overwhelmed by the task, but since they started using the approach I described above, we never had a charge again.
So, if the flames charge the opposite tanks in your raid, try tanking and dragging them this way, maybe it helps.
As far as I can tell in my few attempts on the flames (~14 hours, our first kill was Monday night), the tanks don't need to worry at all what the other tank is doing. The flames only charge when someone is outside 20 yards of a glaive, and I have no idea why they enrage, but I think it has something to do with the flame itself being outside of glaive range. Anyway, if you tell your tanks to 1) stay in range of the glaive( can tell by the green tether), 2) avoid the eyebeams( worst mechanic in the game...hate the bloody things), 3) keep the flames facing away from the raid group (only turn them inward immediately after they do a flame breath), and 4) keep out of the flames on the ground, then they'll succeed. I know I never had any idea of where my partner tank was, and never made any effort to stay in sync with them. And unless I went too far, usually it was just me dying to an eyebeam that wiped us.
No it doesn't, he just doesn't cast it on big groups
You haven't seen anything till you see 7 people take Agonizing Flames due to a bout of spontaneous downs. I exaggerate not.
Also, there was some discussion earlier in the thread about tactics putting the entire raid in melee range and why it wouldn't work. Feel free to use the search function if you want, I guess.
We did P2 tonight in a few impressive tries tonight on him, but failed to get it down again, 1 of the tanks usually messed up, we have the positioning and healing sorted yet we feel that the druid tank is getting alot more spike damage than the warrior tank (I have no WWS to back this up at the moment), on the feral there are 2 palas with a backup resto druid simply hotting between the 2 tanks then on the war there is myself (pala) and another resto druid. We had 2 shammys and a holy priest raid healing and they do their job brilliantly, rarely a death.
I have the DPS complaining about their Omen bugging or not working, I think its due to the fact both flames have the same name so I think they holding back slightly, Im wondering is there a way to fix this issue or a way around it, or is it simply just 'guess' your aggro? We take the 1st flame down in roughly 1 and a half mins or so, the 2nd one is much easier and probably near the same time as the previous.
We are getting better at calling the Eye Beam and the tanks had a bit of a dicussion on how to optimise their crit immunity with near capped FR, I think the feral was a little off the crit immunity tonight by only a minor few points however, will have to check into this. Have you any good tips also to allow the druid to reach I think it is 415 def without nerfing his FR by much, he isnt the worlds most luckiest druid when it comes to drops however, if you do, could you maybe specify the gear (he has access to full S3 too if wondering what parts to mix and match).
Omen works by parsing combat logs, so there's no way for it to distinguish between two mobs with the same name until the next patch (when the combat log gets an overhaul.)
If your druid is having trouble with crit immunity, some PvP gear with resil can help out. I tank with the S2 mace and shield and with their resil I can just barely reach the FR cap and be crit-immune at the same time. You lose some avoidance by going with resil intead of defense, but it's not a big deal. Getting rid of crits is what matters most.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
Have you any good tips also to allow the druid to reach I think it is 415 def without nerfing his FR by much, he isnt the worlds most luckiest druid when it comes to drops however, if you do, could you maybe specify the gear (he has access to full S3 too if wondering what parts to mix and match).
It really isn't hard to make a set of resistance gear, I did it for myself for Hydross and again for Illidan even though there's probably lists all over the place. Anyway, when I started to look into FR gear probably a month or so before we got to Illidan, I just searched wowhead for FR gear and worked out how I can get to the cap in the best way. In the end it was a toss up between [Amulet of the Torn-Heart] and a Fire Armor kit on one of my items, or [Onyxia Scale Cloak] so I went with the cloak.
Yes that cloak is a lot better, I must have ignored it just because it was green. You can also try to get [Fiery Cloak], but the drop rate is pretty bad so you'll need a lot of prisoner keys (unless you get lucky - I didn't).
I use the same gear as xyk, but instead of FR cloak i use green FR head. You can put there either 20fr enchant, or tank enchant, depending on your other gear.
As for the feral taking more spike damage: if both feral and warrior tank the same way, feral takes 16% more damage which is quite a difference.
19:45'55.906 Flame of Azzinoth's Melee hits Inaiwae for 2482 Fire damage (7447 resisted)
19:45'57.015 Blaze's Melee hits Inaiwae for 2500 Fire damage (2500 resisted)
19:45'57.375 Flame of Azzinoth's Melee hits Inaiwae for 2182 Fire damage (6545 resisted)
19:45'57.750 Blaze's Melee hits Inaiwae for 1250 Fire damage (3750 resisted)
19:45'57.750 Blaze's Melee hits Inaiwae for 1250 Fire damage (3750 resisted)
19:45'57.750 Flame of Azzinoth's Flame Blast hits Inaiwae for 3930 Fire damage (3930 resisted)
19:45'58.343 Flame of Azzinoth's Melee hits Inaiwae for 4514 Fire damage (4514 resisted)
19:45'58.578 Blaze's Melee hits Inaiwae for 3750 Fire damage (1250 resisted)
Total 21858 over 2.5 seconds. I obviously stood in 2 blazes for a moment, but i guess that happens sometimes to everyone. On warrior, this would result in 18360. Its possible that i'd survive if i were a warrior.
As for Eye beams, i tanked flames for about a month without problems but then one night i got hit by the beam 3 times in a row (2 times because i underestimated its reach, after that i became really stressed and screwed it again). I use lower graphics details (4th mark, if we consider minimum as 1) and i have maximum camera distance set via /script command. Is there anything else what helps when avoiding the beams? I really do not want to die of eye beam again.
I've found [Flask of Chromatic Wonder] very useful as a feral flame tank (18 sta/str/agi on top of the FR) for making up some of the stats I lose, it also lets me replace an entire FR piece with a normal tanking piece, which more than makes up for Sta/Def difference from a Flask of Fortification.
Is there anything else what helps when avoiding the beams? I really do not want to die of eye beam again.
It's been mentioned in this thread, but I found having someone call out what side Illidan was on to be very useful - you know whether or not you are eligible to be lasered or if you can relax. If Illidan is on your side, you can always run to the point on this map where the actual writing saying 'safe spot' is, because you are utterly safe there - it's a good retreat if you are uncertain or disorientated.
I have a question, I found that several times while tanking the flame I was able to stand in the actual safe spots - as in, where the Blaze can't hit you. It is quite easily repeatable and even seems to make you immune to the eyebeam sometimes - is this an exploit? It's clearly not intended, but when you are there and taking no damage it is hard decide whether you should move when it makes the phase so much easier. I really enjoy tanking the flames and sort of wish this easy option didn't exist to tempt me.
I've found [Flask of Chromatic Wonder] very useful as a feral flame tank (18 sta/str/agi on top of the FR) for making up some of the stats I lose, it also lets me replace an entire FR piece with a normal tanking piece, which more than makes up for Sta/Def difference from a Flask of Fortification.
I'm surprised more people (especially Ferals) don't use one. The broad stat gain is great, and it lets you wear normal chest, head, shoulders plus miscellaneous FR items and still cap resistance, which improves threat a lot.
I'm surprised more people (especially Ferals) don't use one. The broad stat gain is great, and it lets you wear normal chest, head, shoulders plus miscellaneous FR items and still cap resistance, which improves threat a lot.
They aren't cheap, relative to any elixir combination you might be using, but especially for learning the tanking, I'd say they're invaluable. As a feral, whatever you need to do to keep 2pT6 also goes a long way toward speeding up that phase of the fight.
One question which i havent found answer for: can melee dps reach Flame standing in blaze? Are there any tips for tanking and optimizing melee dps?
The Flames have a fairly large hitbox so melee has some room, though I'm not sure if they can if the Flame is standing in the middle of the blaze. I usually try to tank them so I stand further out than the Flame so the blazes only cover half the mob.
I made this quick movie for my guild when we were working on him and not all tanks had tried to tank the flames yet. It's nothing amazing, but it might help to illustrate what I mean.
Yep, it is definitely possible to allow melee dps time, but you have to be careful. I offer the following tips:
* Don't do it if you know the eye beam is going to be on your side, you'll have to move it quickly and will get that area covered with fire making future attempts at this more difficult (i.e. not good returns on investment).
* Time it right after a cone breath attack. Mobs sometimes tend to wander around a bit before "settling in" to a position, so if they decide to breathe on your melee while "settling in", that's obviously not a good thing.
* Once you've got it in position, try to keep it in there as long as possible. You basically have 3 spots where you can stand while having it face outwards, move after each breath attack so you're not standing in the green fire. If it's suitably low-ish on hp, pop trinkets & Frenzied Regen etc and keep it there while standing in the fire (call for extra heals if needed) and just get it down asap.
03/14/08, 10:27 PM
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