Hi everybody:
We´re working in Illidan during two nights, we reach almost always Demon Phase, since Flames phase it´s dominated. But we have a strange issue wiht the Shadow Blast. The hability description is as follows:
Shadow Blast - Will Shadow Blast the target highest on threat for between 8k and 11k shadow damage. This Shadow Blast has a splash effect - raid members within 20 yards of the affected target will receive the damage from the spell. Resistible.
Our warlock tank aggroes quickly Illidan, without any problem, raid is far from Illidan, but always (and I said always) Illidan casts Shadow Blasts apparently random into the raid. Sometimes on the warlock healers, sometimes in a shamy running at 40 yards, sometimes in one of the fire res OT, who hasn´t done any action and has 0 threat.
We can´t explain what´s happening, it´s no aggro problem, because the warlock tank is always on top in Omen, we´ve checked it. And of course it´s not problem of beiing to close to the lock, we can see the Shadow Blast flying over the screen, from Illidan to the targeted
Any idea????
Sorry about my english ^^
My best guess would be your warlock has the Nether Protection talent, although that doesn't really explain some of the targets you mention.
Tonight was my second night doing P2 on Illidan because we are lacking a 2nd tank with an FR set. I was on the 2nd flame to die.
I noticed towards the end though, that you can entirely avoid the fire patch damage. You can see it a bit in the last video that was posted, but you can take it further. In fact, it trivializes the healing. When they cast their flame cone at you, the patch will appear on the ground where you stood at the start of that cast. That gives the tank about 3 seconds to move out of that area.
Tonight was my second night doing P2 on Illidan because we are lacking a 2nd tank with an FR set. I was on the 2nd flame to die.
I noticed towards the end though, that you can entirely avoid the fire patch damage. You can see it a bit in the last video that was posted, but you can take it further. In fact, it trivializes the healing. When they cast their flame cone at you, the patch will appear on the ground where you stood at the start of that cast. That gives the tank about 3 seconds to move out of that area.
I assume that by "flame patch" you mean Blaze. Dmg you received:
Flame of Azzinoth 211,256
Ability:Blaze 93,070
So you didnt avoid the Blaze damage entirely. Also note that Blaze ("flame patch") and Flame Burst ("flame cone") have slightly different timers, so you cant say that there will be Blaze after Burst. Sometimes it will, sometimes it wont.
Nevertheless the ration between dmg from Flame of Azzinoth attacks and Blaze dmg is 2.26, which not bad, but there's space for improvement. I personally want to be at ratio of 3 which i consider as very good flame tanking.
I noticed towards the end though, that you can entirely avoid the fire patch damage.
Up until maybe the last 6 Flame Blasts (not Burst, btw, since you seem to be keen on teaching), I was doing it entirely reactionary: moving out of Blaze when I saw the damage happening.
Compare Wow Web Stats to the previous page. After eating the Dark Barrage, is when I realized I could hop out of it.
Originally Posted by Inaiwae
Also note that Blaze ("flame patch") and Flame Burst ("flame cone") have slightly different timers
This is exactly what I'm trying to say is not true. There is no timer on Blaze, as it's not cast by the Flame of Azzinoth. It is a result of the Flame of Azzinoth casting Flame Blast on someone. The Blaze appears wherever the target was standing when the FoA cast Flame Blast.
There is no timer on Blaze, as it's not cast by the Flame of Azzinoth. It is a result of the Flame of Azzinoth casting Flame Blast on someone. The Blaze appears wherever the target was standing when the FoA cast Flame Blast.
While this is the intended mechanic, it can and does become desynced occasionally. I have definitely seen the Flame Blast go off, pre-emptively moved, and had the Blaze appear in my new location. I have found that it becomes easier for me to wait until I know that the Blaze is down and then do the kite. It may just be some odd server/client interaction, or normal positional lag, but having the Blast and the Blaze desync is common enough to be a well-known and something that most tanks just deal with.
Of course, it's never desync'd when the caster pulls aggro and the Flame lays a patch in the raid.
There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake
I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai
This is exactly what I'm trying to say is not true. There is no timer on Blaze, as it's not cast by the Flame of Azzinoth. It is a result of the Flame of Azzinoth casting Flame Blast on someone. The Blaze appears wherever the target was standing when the FoA cast Flame Blast.
This is not true, they're completely separate, linked only by the fact that the Flame casts both spells on the highest target.
Try this: When, toward the end of the tanking, you go to flip the blaze right after he flame breathes, see if the next Blaze shows up where the blast was, or where you are. It's not the former, and you'll find yourself needing to move out of blaze before the next flame breath occurs.
This is not true, they're completely separate, linked only by the fact that the Flame casts both spells on the highest target.
The Flame does not cast Blaze. Check the logs. Blaze is a server-side scripted event.
Originally Posted by Denogran
Try this: When, toward the end of the tanking, you go to flip the blaze right after he flame breathes, see if the next Blaze shows up where the blast was, or where you are. It's not the former, and you'll find yourself needing to move out of blaze before the next flame breath occurs.
Wow... I love how people read what I post. I just said I did this last night. It was the former. I even posted the specific part of the log, at the end of the FoA tanking where I was moving out of the Blast as it happened, and the Blaze appears where I was standing before.
The Flame does not cast Blaze. Check the logs. Blaze is a server-side scripted event.
Wow... I love how people read what I post. I just said I did this last night. It was the former. I even posted the specific part of the log, at the end of the FoA tanking where I was moving out of the Blast as it happened, and the Blaze appears where I was standing before.
I read it, and I think you're mistaken. Perhaps you were moving as it was cast? And fine, it's a server-side scripted event that the happens to the person with the highest threat on a particular Flame (Note this is only semantically different than were the Flame casting them...).
Even if we entertain your theory, why are the timings so different then, and by such a large time-scale (seconds)? I mean your theory is basically that the flame breath causes the blazes, but somehow they aren't linked that well and so as the fight progresses those two actions become more distinct by a significant time period. Doesn't that seem incredibly more complicated than two independent spells with different timers? Can you point to _any_ other place in the game where when two spells are linked they have a growing time differential?
In my experience, I've had patches occur in spots where Blast hadn't been cast, but where I've been standing. Often in fact, especially when I first started tanking and would move when I got blasted even before the patch started hitting me. So I'm pretty well positive that where Blast is cast, and where the patches occur, are not specifically linked.
Last edited by Denogran : 05/22/08 at 8:18 PM.
Reason: Blaze != Blast
And fine, it's a server-side scripted event that the happens to the person with the highest threat on a particular Flame (Note this is only semantically different than were the Flame casting them...).
Not entirely... because it's server-side scripted, we don't have any events for when it appears, we can't see a castbar for timing and we can't determine causality in black and white, we have to look at correlation and try to infer causality.
Originally Posted by Denogran
Even if we entertain your theory, why are the timings so different then, and by such a large time-scale (seconds)? I mean your theory is basically that the flame breath causes the blazes, but somehow they aren't linked that well and so as the fight progresses those two actions become more distinct by a significant time period.
Actually, I wasn't the one to suggest this. I never said anything about the timing being different from start to finish. I implied that right from the start, Blaze always appears 2-3 seconds after Blast. What I did say was that I didn't correlate one being linked to the other until the last few
I just reviewed the log with the specific intention of looking for the timing between Blast and Blaze. Right from the start, the timing is 2.4 to 2.7 seconds after Blast, I get hit by the first Blaze damage. The very beginning of me tanking I avoided a Blast entirely via some luck I would guess, then I'm running through all kinds of fire to dodge the first beam. At 22:19, I've settled into my rotation of moving out of Blaze, not taking Blaze damage for a few swings, getting hit by Blast and then moving again, and you can see some very specific times of 2.4-2.7 second difference between Blast and first Blaze damage.
I got lost on your last couple paragraphs referring to Blaze and patches (the patches are Blaze, so I'm assuming you meant Blast?). I can't do Illidan for another week, and I can't take any videos on my machine on any Outlands content, it's just too crappy, so all I ask is that you, or anyone else, just try it for yourself. Move as soon as Blast is cast and see if you can't nearly totally eliminate Blaze damage.
As Denogran is trying to tell you, the Flame Blast (fire breath) and Blaze timers ARE NOT NECESSARILY LINKED. They start out about the same, but sometimes they will drift apart as the fight continues. If they do stay the same, then yes, it does trivialise it to some extent - giving you a cue of when to move. But most of the time, in my experience, the timers drift off during the fight. Sometimes its a bit, and sometimes its so much that Blaze and Flame Blast seem to totally alternate because the timers are so far out.
Actually, I wasn't the one to suggest this. I never said anything about the timing being different from start to finish. I implied that right from the start, Blaze always appears 2-3 seconds after Blast. What I did say was that I didn't correlate one being linked to the other until the last few
I just reviewed the log with the specific intention of looking for the timing between Blast and Blaze. Right from the start, the timing is 2.4 to 2.7 seconds after Blast, I get hit by the first Blaze damage. The very beginning of me tanking I avoided a Blast entirely via some luck I would guess, then I'm running through all kinds of fire to dodge the first beam. At 22:19, I've settled into my rotation of moving out of Blaze, not taking Blaze damage for a few swings, getting hit by Blast and then moving again, and you can see some very specific times of 2.4-2.7 second difference between Blast and first Blaze damage.
I got lost on your last couple paragraphs referring to Blaze and patches (the patches are Blaze, so I'm assuming you meant Blast?). I can't do Illidan for another week, and I can't take any videos on my machine on any Outlands content, it's just too crappy, so all I ask is that you, or anyone else, just try it for yourself. Move as soon as Blast is cast and see if you can't nearly totally eliminate Blaze damage.
Two things I guess. First, the timing is different. When you first start tanking the flame you'll notice that immediately after getting blasted, you'll get blazed (and yes, my last paragraph mixed those two, thanks for pointing that out, it should be fixed now). As time goes on, you'll notice that Blast and Blaze are separatedby some time. Illidan Kill (First three or so are the same ms, then they start to diverge. Wasn't the cleanest moving kill on my part, and I was the first flame's tank for this kill, which means the end difference isn't quite as pronounced. But does mean I picked up most every Blaze that happened in my combat logs ).
I looked at your WWS, and I'm not sure of where you're getting the 2.4-2.7 timing. First and Last Blast
The First WWS shows you getting your first Flame Blast and Flame Blaze at exactly the same time. The last WWS shows you getting them separated by 1.5 seconds. This is consistent with what I'm reporting. Note the intermediate times in the middle of the tanking too, which show a growing time discrepancy:
22:18'49.788 Ability:Blaze's Blaze hits Grayson for 1058 Fire damage (3750 resisted)
22:18'49.792 Flame of Azzinoth's Flame Blast hits Grayson for 1837 Fire damage (6514 resisted)
22:18'50.996 Ability:Blaze's Blaze hits Grayson for 1058 Fire damage (3750 resisted)
Additionally, I have moved as soon as the Blast is cast, I used to do that a lot when I was first tanking and thought the two spells were linked. Without fail, after a couple of seconds, I would get Blaze in my new spot, even though I had not been standing there when Blast was cast. So I'm fairly positive that where Blast is cast and where Blaze is cast are not related.
On the other hand, both spells are fairly regular, and perhaps easy enough to get the timing down so you could be moving as Blaze is cast. The graphic certainly shows up before my SCT shows incoming damage, so it's reasonable to believe that there's some delay between Blaze being cast and its first tick of damage.
I got lost on your last couple paragraphs referring to Blaze and patches (the patches are Blaze, so I'm assuming you meant Blast?). I can't do Illidan for another week, and I can't take any videos on my machine on any Outlands content, it's just too crappy, so all I ask is that you, or anyone else, just try it for yourself. Move as soon as Blast is cast and see if you can't nearly totally eliminate Blaze damage.
While I agree that the blazes most likely are designed to directly follow flame blasts, they do not necessarily stay that way for the duration of a night. Whether it be because of a flaw in the encounter coding or something as simple as client-server latency, they most certainly do have a tendency to drift out of sync by up to 3 or 4 seconds at worst, and claiming otherwise is pointless. Anyone who's been tanking them for a long time will tell you the same. Like I said though, it feels natural that they would work that way, and usually they do for a time, but it is not a guaranteed mechanic you should rely blindly on.
I can't do Illidan for another week, and I can't take any videos on my machine on any Outlands content, it's just too crappy, so all I ask is that you, or anyone else, just try it for yourself. Move as soon as Blast is cast and see if you can't nearly totally eliminate Blaze damage.
I already tried it. When i was new to illidan i moved after Blasts. It wasnt working good. Now i move after Blaze spawns, i am hit 1-2 times before i move out, but it works really well. Yesterday's kill: Inaiwae - WWS (155k from Flame of Azzinoth, 37.5k from Blazes).
Our paladin tank has recently been getting hit with quite a few shears. We can’t figure out how he is getting sheared with Holy Shield up. Hoping someone here might see something we have missed. Otherwise, we're going to try putting a few less buffs on the tank next week in case Holy Shield was getting pushed off by other buffs.
Your Paladin tank is short some avoidance for pushing off Shear. The extra miss chance Defense gives you doesn't count for Shear as Shear can not miss. He'll need to get his dodge + parry + block up to 71.8% before Holy Shield (Or 5.3% less when using [Libram of Repentance]) to not get Sheared.
buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of
Your Paladin tank is short some avoidance for pushing off Shear. The extra miss chance Defense gives you doesn't count for Shear as Shear can not miss. He'll need to get his dodge + parry + block up to 71.8% before Holy Shield (Or 5.3% less when using [Libram of Repentance]) to not get Sheared.
Thanks. That was just the info I was hoping to find. So it looks like he is about 7.5% short on avoidance. He's got the Libram so he needs 66.5% avoidance and only has 59% avoidance (if my math is correct): 15% dodge + 18% parry +15% block + 5% base chance to miss + 6% from defense.
Is that much avoidance achievable while still maintaining 490+ defense? Or do you need to go below 490 and take a chance on getting crit to avoid the chance of getting sheared?
Is that much avoidance achievable while still maintaining 490+ defense? Or do you need to go below 490 and take a chance on getting crit to avoid the chance of getting sheared?
It's absolutely achievable, and tanking Illidan while not crit immune is a recipe for disaster. Remember that his base chance to miss and miss-chance from defense aren't counted toward your total for Shear, so you need 66.5% avoidance from dodge, block and parry only.
It's absolutely achievable, and tanking Illidan while not crit immune is a recipe for disaster. Remember that his base chance to miss and miss-chance from defense aren't counted toward your total for Shear, so you need 66.5% avoidance from dodge, block and parry only.
Ok, thanks for the clarification on the mechanics of shear. I'm sure he can make some adjustments to his gear to achieve the necessary avoidance.
I thought I remembered reading it earlier in the thread, but I can't seem to turn it up with searches.
Does anyone know if there's a problem with taking him below 30% in demon phase?
We had our first 30% transition last night, and it was just at the end of demon phase. When we came out of shadow prison, our warrior couldn't seem to pick up Illidan, despite apparently having higher threat than anyone else - Illidan just kept burning people down.
I wonder if Omen did a threat reset (ending demon) but he didn't actually.
Our plan next time is just to hold DPS, just in case, but I was wondering if there was a known problem there.
I thought I remembered reading it earlier in the thread, but I can't seem to turn it up with searches.
Does anyone know if there's a problem with taking him below 30% in demon phase?
We had our first 30% transition last night, and it was just at the end of demon phase. When we came out of shadow prison, our warrior couldn't seem to pick up Illidan, despite apparently having higher threat than anyone else - Illidan just kept burning people down.
I wonder if Omen did a threat reset (ending demon) but he didn't actually.
Our plan next time is just to hold DPS, just in case, but I was wondering if there was a known problem there.
We had that happen the other day and it didn't end well either. We'll hold dps if we're in the mid-high 30's with <15 seconds to demon phase.
Not sure if it's been reported, posted or announced, so I figured I'd share. If this is somehow in violation of any rules, please; feel free to delete the post immediately.
As of ~6 weeks ago, one of our Offtanks (incidentally Flame Tanks) mainswapped to his Hunter, so I've stepped down from tanking Illidan to tanking the Flames on his behalf. Since doing this, about 3-4 weeks ago I discovered a bug; allowing you to stand in a particular position and providing complete immunity to pretty much all of the damage in the fight.
The Purple dot repesents Illidan's spawn position. Each green dot represents the Blade of Azzinoth spawn points.
The yellow dots (for sake of clarity) represents the groups locations. The Red X demonstrates the "immune" spot.
The first time I accidentally discovered this spot, I was surprised. I thought my character was bugged or something, and just took it as that. Incidentally, I happened to have fraps running at the time, so I've got a video of it. Just needs to be rendered and hosted. I came back the next week to see if I could repeat it - and surprisingly enough, I was able to stand in the same position and ignore all of the flame damage once again. Since then I've pushed the bug to it's limit, intentionally allowing myself to be consumed by several of Illidan's Eye Beams. They don't do any damage either.
So to summarise, this position negates the following damage sources:
- Green Flame Patch
- Blue Flame Patch
- Eye Laser
Has anyone else noticed this, or is it specific to me? There are lots of other whacky things with my character; for example I can run right through the flame barrier surrounding Brutallus and Felmyst, allowing me to run all the way to the Eredar twins room and get beaten up by the trash afterwards.
Once again, sorry if this is against any policies. Feel free to delete the post if this is the case.
EDIT: I removed the diagram until further notice, just to be safe. If it's cool to post the diagram, I'll include it.
My guild has just started working on Illidan and I am one of our flame tanks. I am both crit immune and FR capped but I sometimes get huge hits from the elemental, usually something like "Flame of Azzinoth hits you for 14k (49k resisted)" which is even more than they usually hit for when enraged. Some tanks from a further progressed guild on my server have told me that I need to be defense capped and that I can't use both defense and resilience otherwise the flames randomly do 50k hits. This sounded rather dubious to me but it happened. Every forum I've searched for answers on has druids talking about tanking in resilience gear just fine. I'm rather puzzled.
You can use Resilience perfectly fine on resist fights for crit reduction. This is a myth that's been around for ages, I first came across it about a year ago when I was told Resilience wouldn't work on Hydross. Enrage would also be my guess for hits that large.
05/20/08, 8:18 PM
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