I have not found a similar topic yet. Most likely because for most of you the answer is obvious. However in our guild a minor discussion is currently going on, and I would like to hear your takes on the subject.

The question is: When, while working on a new boss, does/did your guild start using consumeables?

In our guild there are currently two positions (since we are currently working on Vashij Phase 2 - with the striders being our main problem - I use this as an example) :

The early-drinkers say, as soon as the basic principles of what everyone is supposed to do are clear we should use flasks to maximize our chances in any given attempt. In the current situation the 5-7% buff from DPS consumeables will allow us sooner to get to the point where we kill one strider before the next one spawns.

The late-drinkers say, we should wait with consumeables until all coordination issues are worked out. Only once we manage (or almost manage) to kill one strider before the next one spawns should we start using consumeables, to add a margin of error to a now working strategy. Using consumeables earlier will only cover flaws in our strategy.

I know this is mostly focussed on DPS consumeables. For mana potions and tank consumeables the point where you start using them is probably a lot earlier than for all others.

What do you think?

Use flasks as you learn, then full consumeables when you have it on farm. Flaska really are cheap now days and a good solution to this problem.

One thing I hate is to be using expensive consumeables, while others slack and don't use a damn thing. At leasts flasks are not so expensive anymore and they provide a smaller, albeit nice, boost. Don't forget your marks of illidari also!

Depending on how often you raid, I would consider 100% flask time appropriate. We raid 4 hrs a night, I usually flask at first boss pull (20-30 minutes into the night) and that way if we raid later than intended my second flask is still up.

Really I am at the point where I spend more on repairs than flasks anyways, why not have 100% uptime?

Usually when learning a boss, we do a couple attempts with zero consumables just to get our feet wet (with the exception of Hyjal), and then we put on full consumables. There are a lot of fights where using consumables gives you just enough extra dps to push you on to see the next phase of the fight. Also using a flask early on for healers may save them more consumables in the long run (ie mana pots).

In any fight where dps affects your survivability, I think drinking the whole time is easily justifiable. The thought being the same as flasking up the tank almost from the very start: it might let you see more of the fight earlier even if it isn't the difference between winning and losing on a given attempt. On the other hand, for mostly homogenous fights without adds I could see being a bit more reluctant to pot up.

I think that in the end everyone being on the same page is much much more important than the actual decision you reach though. People getting pissed off that they're spending a lot of money on learning while others "slack" is potentially a lot more detrimental than the actual loss of stats from said people not using consumables.

I think at this point of raiding everyone should flask from the first attempts or at least we do.

Although I dont use super mana potions until we get to a point where its safe to assume boss is going down next few attempts and I limit myself to cheap lower level pots up until then.

If you're learning a boss with quite an obvious "dps check" mechanic (such as Vashj, Kael, Al'ar, or whatever) then learn the basic principles of the fight and make sure people know what they're doing (which should take an hour if you've read up on everything before, but maybe 2-3 if you have no clue when entering the fight/have people who are slow to pick up on things that have been blatantly pointed out) and then flask/pot. Flasking or potting makes people concentrate more because there's something at stake other than just repairs, and it means people have a focused window of opportunity (say that you normally raid 5 hours, but you spend 2 on pre-flasking then flask - say you'll finish the raid when flasks tick off rather than pushing for another hour/wasting one hour of flask time).

The obvious benefits are straight up more dps/healing output/tanking stuff. The less obvious benefits are the focus/etc that people seem to have while using them.

I agree with what dukes says, on a fight like vashj where there is a reasonable amount going on, you run unpotted while people get the general idea of what's going on - to flask up when you've still no idea what to do with the cores, or you're failing to keep striders kited properly is pointless and will inevitably annoy people if you flask the whole raid and you're still faced by the same problems you had unpotted. Once you've got the whole raid with a general idea of whats happening and have made reasonable progress, say 2 shields down on vashj and you're starting to be overrun by striders/nagas/elementals through lack of dps, would be the time to start potting.

Consumables are good if you're lacking dps or whatever, but they wont make a bad person play like a rockstar.

As a tank, I often flask when we have no idea what we are doing other than what we have learned from websites etc. If I read a boss can put out some crazy burst damage (shaman on Karathress for example), then I flask from the start.

For fights like Vashj, it is of course very beneficial to do dry runs until you have the basics of the fight down and literally just need thta little extra DPs boost to win.

I don't tend to flask if I know it's 100% unnecessary, but on fights we've only done once or twice I feel flasking makes it much easier. If you factor in how long you'll end up being in the instance and the very low prices of flasks, it's overall far more beneficial to your DPS and the raid if you flask for encounters where the extra DPS may be needed or used to cushion an enrage timer.

It really depends. On some fights like Kael we had a lot of wipes in phases 1-3 so I waited each evening till we got to p4 and then chugged my flask.

On the other hand on hard hitting bosses I tend to use a lot of stuff in order to ensure clean kills. I still chugg my ironshields on Tidewalker and even some on Karathresh. Its pretty tankspecific obviously but its almost ironic that I sometimes I can go with zero consumables whereas the rest of the raid is fully flasked since having 500 HP less won't have any impact on the fight.

To the OP definitely flask your raid in order to get more breathing space. Having your whole DPS crew flasked is a difference like night and day compared to an unflasked raid (that might not even use bufffood).

I think even for fights where you have to check various variables it is sometimes very helpfull to have your dps at least fully flasked up since you often won't be able to progress without enough raid DPS (or won't be able to distribute your DPS in such a way that all bases are covered).

As a paladin healer I havent felt limited by my mana so I have not been using resto flasks as much. When we were learning bosses I used flasks exclusively because you die all the time. But now that everything can be 1 shot more or less, I perfer the stats from Healing Elixir/Major Mageblood over a resto flask.

I wouldnt use elixirs if I was not a herbalist though, buying them all the time would suck. On tougher bosses I try not use them until after about 15-20 seconds into the fight. Too many times I've seen things fall apart within the first 30 seconds. Though last night we were having an exceptionally rough time on Archimonde and I ran out of elixirs (only brought 5 pairs) so I flasked heh.

My raid group typically flasks for everything, with the exception of tanks on certain fights.

A couple elixir spec'd alchemists really bring the cost down to almost nominal... I think I just spent about 150g in mats the other day, but I came out with 4 stacks of flasks of relentless assault. That's 40 hours of raiding, and will last me a good 10 raids.

It really depends. Some fights, like Vashj, are easier to learn with a flask once you have a good idea of what to do. Some fights, like Morogrim, it doesn't really matter whether you flask or not.

This would be another benefit to phasing mana potions out of the raid game. Less uncertainty about whether consumable usage is stifling progress!

Right now I'm usually flasked at all times in Hyjal and BT but when 2.2 comes out with the new caster flasks that don't require a [Black Lotus] I'll probably be flasked at all times, even when during Kara.

There is no reason not to, even if you can kill the boss without them. On my server they go as low as 20g and as high as 30g and if you are smart (ie you bid in the morning) you can always get them for 20g.. And 20g can be farmed in less than 10 minutes :P

We've recently started requiring flasks/food/weapon buffs on every learning attempt.

In the past we would hear things like "my mana is fine, no reason for me to flask" or "I'll pot up if it's looking like a good attempt." This led to the prepared raiders thinking nobody was taking it seriously so they stopped using consumables.

Since flasking has been mandatory, there has been zero whining about people not pulling their weight. Everyone is willing to put out that extra effort when they see that the entire raid has a flask on them, whether they need it or not. Each player also puts in 100% on every attempt because it's more than just repair costs now. It was rough implementing this, but now everyone knows it is expected and that we check it.

Honestly, with as many Marks of the Illidari an average weekly clear yields there is no excuse not to flask on most occasions if you are working the various zones.

This is very true, especially if you adopt the "trade a caster a mark for a flask" system, which allows the casters to bypass the crappy black lotus problem in their dps flask. Just trade them a mark, and ask for an appropriate TBC flask in return.

Use them all the time. Don't even hesitate. The people who push the envelope are the ones that make a difference in progression guilds. I flask for trash. I don't give a damn. If you want to be #1, you have to perform like you're #1 and that means buffing yourself to the gills whenever possible.

I flask for new content starting with the second week of tries, or right away if early tries are promising- once people know the fight, ending it efficiently is the goal. We try and funnel all our potion and flask materials through the proper specialists so that we don't waste potential procs and keep costs way down. There's no reason not to; even on early content it can be the difference between 1% and 0%. For our guild (on Gruul + VR + early SSC), I'm looking at one Blade's Edge flask and at most 4 Flasks of Supreme Power, which is one set of Ogri'la dailies on my server, letting alone elixir procs.

I personally flask before the fight if I expect to have the slightest problem with what I'm doing. (As a healer, that means a mighty resto if I'm worried about mana, as a tank, that means a fortification and a food buff if I'm worried about big damage.) If I were DPS, I would probably flask for every attempt (past perhaps an initial positioning attempt or two) just because more DPS is always good. (While more survivability/longetivity don't tend to have as much of an impact on learning.)

The best bet is to have everyone flask up as soon as you reach a boss. Flasks are cheap - if a flask saves you a night of learning, it sometimes pays for itself with that alone.

If you're in a more casual environment, though, where people might not want to sustain "perma-flasked" expenses, you may be better off just letting people flask as they want, then calling for flasks after a few learning attempts. (In other words, when you think you have a solid chance of getting the boss down in the next two hours.)

I really see this as something unique between guilds.