Sunwell Plateau confirmed and New Wotlk instance "Nexus" - Page 3

snape · 08/24/07, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

The text from Adal states about KJ being in Azeroth, and Kael serving him..

Could you refresh my memory on this? I can't recall anything stating Kil'Jaeden is in Azeroth (forgive me if I'm wrong, I'd just like a reference).

Zerath · 08/24/07, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by Volrath50

Out of curiosity, where did this idea come from, and what is it based on? .

Well, I was under the impression that S3 would have the T6 gear for arena players but the pvp base on Dark Iron is claiming Blue posted about this. Saying that S3 will be a "hold over" season until S4 where the T6 gear for PvPers would be available. I have a few reports to send out then I'll see if anything can be dug up on this.

Playered · 08/24/07, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by snape

Could you refresh my memory on this? I can't recall anything stating Kil'Jaeden is in Azeroth (forgive me if I'm wrong, I'd just like a reference).

A'dal's thoughts intermingle with your own.>

The sphere... Strange. Did you know that he lived? Yes. It is here - in the sphere itself. Maimed for certain. He calls to a higher power now. No, not Illidan.

Higher.

Kil'jaeden the Deceiver comes...

Not here...

<A'dal points your mind elsewhere.>

Azeroth. Unknown.

Daenrya · 08/24/07, 3:33 PM

Since we know he's not dead, I'm hoping Kael makes something of a reappearance, and I'm hoping that the skull of his father to restore the Sunwell is something that's an objective of killing him. It'd be nice if the plotline behind the entire Plateau is 'destroy Kil'jaeden and restore the Sunwell so the elves can stop sucking off demons for their fix'

Eej · 08/24/07, 3:38 PM

All I can say is that this thread makes next week PNT that much easier to write.

Err, I mean, I am very excited to not-raid Sunwell Plateau. I can't wait to see what villains remain after you start killing all the real ones off.

e: Also, I thought most EJ posters only read WoR/MMO Champion via PNT anyways. :P

Blinks · 08/24/07, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

At this point I bet even people inside Blizzard couldn't accurately tell you when things like patch 2.4 and WotLK are going to be released. Let's try to avoid speculating to that extent, it's kind of silly.

This is 100% correct given the nature of the industry, not just Blizzard.

Bazazu · 08/24/07, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

I've often thought the same way. I'm likely right. But I'd still love to see them actually try, even if they make mistakes. They'd learn from those mistakes. What better occasion for such an experiment than this upcoming 5-man? It's the first time they've ever made a 5-man that was something other than a leveling zone or an "I just hit cap" zone.

In regards to trying to make truely difficult 5 man content...

While it may not have been intentional at the time, I think they already accomplished this with TBC. As many of the "first wavers" found out, some of the early heroics were incredibly difficult. Especially those that were involved in TK attunement. Shattered halls just screamed "stack your group".

Obviously, some lessons have already been learned, such as the melee fiasco, etc. But there are some things that will always teeter on being undoable for certain group make ups.

It's something that will never find a proper balance. With a 5 man composition, it's just too hard to accomodate all class makeups, and account for the vastly different skills that a class can bring. A mage for instance can mean a run goes smooth, where as without sheep can make a humanoid instance incredibly painful. Warlocks can do the same for demon based instances as well. And I think we can all agree that the plate wearing paladins can often result in "close saves" when taking damage over the insta-gib armor qualities of our friendly holy priests, when a pesky add gets loose.

I'm not even going to pretend I have a solution for this stuff, as I don't think there really is one. It's just one the drawbacks of a multi class game. The only true way to fix it would be to have 5 classes, 5 group slots. Every instance would be tuned around having 1 of every class in your group.

To digress a moment - it's also one of the problems I see with implementing the hero classes, and the current problems that plague us with over 20 unique classes (talent trees). It becomes a nightmare to tune all the different abilities, dps levels, and utility spells that each talent tree has.

Blinks · 08/24/07, 4:10 PM

Less emphasis on crowd control would allow a broader viable class composition. Unfortunately, if you never have to remove an enemy from a fight completely, its likely too easy. Moving away from multi-mob pulls would reduce the need for crowd control, but how to make that more challenging than a tank and spank?

Malan · 08/24/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Blinks

Moving away from multi-mob pulls would reduce the need for crowd control, but how to make that more challenging than a tank and spank?

Astromancer/Aran mode - mobs that just cast non stop and need to be DPS'd rapidly.

Volrath50 · 08/24/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Blinks

Less emphasis on crowd control would allow a broader viable class composition. Unfortunately, if you never have to remove an enemy from a fight completely, its likely too easy. Moving away from multi-mob pulls would reduce the need for crowd control, but how to make that more challenging than a tank and spank?

Haven't been to Arcatraz in a while, but that's mostly single-pulls, and is generally considered one of the more difficult 5-mans.

Really though, 5-man difficulty should be focused on bosses, not trash. The more difficulty is placed on trash packs, the more a stacked CC group and/or a paladin tank trivializes it.

Vernichter · 08/24/07, 4:21 PM

One option for making a 5-man more difficult would be to increase the duration or number of stages in a fight. 25-man fights typically run in the 4 to 8 minute range. 5-man fights are usually quite a bit shorter. From a balance perspective short fights will always be more biased by cooldowns. How do you balance a group with bloodlust with a group that doesn't have bloodlust, for example, especially if a fight is short and the bloodlust is up for >40%?

Another option for adding complexity would be to add more set-piece involvement. Interaction with objects like the tainted cores of Vashj or the spear in Najentus could add a great deal of freshness.

At the extreme end, set pieces can allow the developers to zero in fight difficulty very precisely, if they are employed properly. I'm certain that the chess event could have been tuned to be very challenging, and the advantage is that it is completely independent of class make-up.

Nfariessence · 08/24/07, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Executie

I assume your server is a PvE server, this is still an issue on pvp servers. One faction typically dominates the summoning stone with a raid group or two for up to an hour before their raid start time. You either luck out and control the stone, or every member of the raid has to make the hike.

The real problem isn't even that: It's that when they put instances in non-neutral territories (i.e. Gnomeregon, Wailing Caverns, Deadmines, RFK/RFC) it is an enormous inconvenience to members of the opposite faction on PvP servers. That is because people of the 'home' faction have to be flagged PvP to be attacked, while people of the 'visiting' faction do not.

That means that if this is in Horde territory (not just near a horde city, but in a green/red territory such as Eversong Woods), that if 10 alliance players are out at the summoning stone and 3 horde players roll up... that the alliance players can not attack them. Meanwhile, the 3 horde players can call in 20-30 reinforcements, form a raid group, buff up, set MT boxes and focus-fire targets, and then attack the alliance players with impunity before the alliance players can even defend themselves.

I don't have a problem with long flight times, but I do have a problem with high level content in non-neutral zones (although the solution is to make the areas around these instances neutral, but there is no precedent for that yet).

Malan · 08/24/07, 4:22 PM

A vashj type 3 stage fight with 5 man would be pretty difficult, I could see that.

Originally Posted by Nfariessence

Meanwhile, the 3 horde players can call in 20-30 reinforcements, form a raid group, buff up, set MT boxes and focus-fire targets, and then attack the alliance players with impunity before the alliance players can even defend themselves.

Yes that's exactly how it happens. Us horde just have that level of coordination, we make PUG raids with MT Targets and focus macros to take control of summoning stones.

Come on, really? How often is someone at cap level on a pvp server not flagged for pvp? You can be sure the trigger happy warlock in the group is going to DoT everyone up and flag everyone anyways. This is really a silly concern. Its no different than having to mass your raid together and brute force your way into MC/BWL/KZ/Gruul/SSC. Corpse run if you have to, its not hard.

Kytrarewn · 08/24/07, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Quigon

2.3: Late September/Early October

I doubt that it could possibly be that early. Look how long 2.2 has been taking, and it's a "minor content, feature, nerf, and bugfix" patch (granted that they're adding in a whole lot of features like voice chat). Assuming that they've learned their lesson re: testing instances and tuning them, I would be surprised if they could manage to fully get ZA and the rest of 2.3 (no idea what else they're going to shove into it, but it's got to be something, right) in line in 4 weeks.

I'd say that October 16 is probably the most likely date for 2.3.

Nite_Moogle · 08/24/07, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kytrarewn

I'd say that October 16 is probably the most likely date for 2.3.

A cynical man might say October 30 to butt heads with Hellgate.

Blinks · 08/24/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Astromancer/Aran mode - mobs that just cast non stop and need to be DPS'd rapidly.

I definitely enjoy those encounters immensely, but mostly because they go against whatever rule set has been set down by previous ones. No threat, PVP style healing; a definite departure from conventional encounters.

But that is why I enjoy them. If this scenario somehow became the norm, I'd likely begin to pine for "the good old days of UBRS". And I promised myself if UBRS ever began to look good, I would quit. ^^

Alternatively, they could also just add crowd control immunities or create non-denominational race types for trash mobs, ala The Arcatraz.

snape · 08/24/07, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

A vashj type 3 stage fight with 5 man would be pretty difficult, I could see that.

Yes that's exactly how it happens. Us horde just have that level of coordination, we make PUG raids with MT Targets and focus macros to take control of summoning stones.

Come on, really? How often is someone at cap level on a pvp server not flagged for pvp? You can be sure the trigger happy warlock in the group is going to DoT everyone up and flag everyone anyways. This is really a silly concern. Its no different than having to mass your raid together and brute force your way into MC/BWL/KZ/Gruul/SSC. Corpse run if you have to, its not hard.

Pretty much everyone missed the intent of my original point - it's not the Horde Territory thing primarily, although the corollary of it is my big problem, and that's travel time. Yeah, yeah, have some poor guild members log there by the stone every day. But the larger issue is that quite often (I would say the majority) of the time, I'm flying to the raid instance on any night.

In other words, I'm not really squabbling with the PvP - it's the location. I really don't see how they won't put in some sort of teleporter to the zone, so I'll shut my trap now. I made a vague rant without clear intent, and now that I've said my peace we can focus on the actual instance.

Renew · 08/24/07, 4:42 PM

2.3 will probably be put on PTR's soon after 2.2. 2.3 is looking like a pretty big class balance patch.

Thrawnseg · 08/24/07, 4:43 PM

With what they did to the SSC/TK attunement, do you think that since Sunwell will be above BT in difficulty terms, that a attunement would be on this dungeon? Maybe a new quest hub right outside, with quests for inside the instance to "activate" the heroic part.

Then use the Heroic part as a keying for Sunwell. Almost like a TK Trial. I think they would be able to get away with this, since the target audience of the 25 man is raiders already in/through BT/Hyjal.

Edit: Spelling

vyedma · 08/24/07, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kytrarewn

I'd say that October 16 is probably the most likely date for 2.3.

With all the halloweeny type files we've been seeing I wouldn't be surprised to see 2.3 sometime around mid-end of October.

Groat · 08/24/07, 4:45 PM

Really it is the entire sound code rework that has dragged 2.2 out as long as it has - redoing all of that opened up a ton of bugs/issues, so I definitely do want them to take the time it takes to ensure that is all working properly. Once they're comfortable with that, it should be out soon - I wouldn't base 2.3 on the time 2.2 took - redoing the entire sound engine is hugenormous.

Nite_Moogle · 08/24/07, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by snape

travel time

I'm sure that every Horde player that got to fly to Kargath from the Undercity or Grom'gol a few hundred times during the MC/BWL days will feel terribly sorry for you in this respect.

Quigon · 08/24/07, 4:49 PM

I'm not complaining about lack of content at all. I was just commenting and doing my best guess. I think things need to be done right. I will take 1 naxx a year, instead of 20 ssc's.

Zifna · 08/24/07, 4:49 PM

Originally Posted by OzzymandiasKJ

Which isn't a bad thing. I mean, maybe it is for your guild. But I think that Blizzard doesn't want to repeat the Naxx effect of having only 5% of the world's guilds actually experiencing anything beyond the first boss of the instance. This long break is a great opportunity for other guilds to catch up and at least have a realistic shot at entering the Sunwell Plateau before WoLK renders it useless.

I have to agree. My guild, Resurgence Theory, is within the top 100 US Horde guilds according to WoWJutsu, and we've only just gotten into Black Temple/Hyjal in the past week or two. People have been pushing themselves really hard, which makes me really very pleased that it seems doubtful that Sunwell will come out before late December.

We've got eight more bosses still to get through, but once we have I think a break where we do only a light (2 or 3 day) raid schedule would be wonderful for us. I think if another 25 man came out 2 months from now, I'd see a lot of people burn out, and I hate that (not that we haven't seen some of that anyway). People can use the days once spent raiding for stuff like World PvP raids, Guild Alterac Valleys, and maybe running PuGs of some of the lower-tier instances to help the server out. Or even... Real Life! 0_o

I think we can probably anticipate seeing Zul'Aman in 2.3 with loot comparable to the better Tier 5 stuff in quality. I also think we'll see a number of changes in 2.3 to make high-end content more accessible to 25-man guilds. For example, I would guess that Rage Winterchill and Naj'entus will start dropping attunement items and that Kael and Vashj will see nerfs. A slightly slower spawn rate on Vashj adds in Phase 2 and a hitpoint nerf to the weapons and Kael's advisors would let a number of guilds that are stalled here progress.

They'll probably implement ZA in a ZG or AQ20 style. They've implied that they won't be having new abilities drop but even something as simple as having new Enchant and Alchemy patterns drop from there could result in a substantial overall power increase to players without doing additional direct nerfs to Tier 5 content.

Blinks · 08/24/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

I'm sure that every Horde player that got to fly to Kargath from the Undercity or Grom'gol a few hundred times during the MC/BWL days will feel terribly sorry for you in this respect.

I shed a tear for the Alliance player that actually has to spend time travelling somewhere.

But honestly, Blizzard made that mistake before and should have learned from it. For a good year Horde players had to spend an extraordinary amount of time travelling just to get to the raid instance.

Although, with Summoning Stones I'm sure they feel they get a pass, and maybe they do.