In other words, a vast majority of our guild's DPS had to go out and get arena weapons if they wanted to have an upgrade beyond rep rewards and instance blues. That's sickening.
That's sad for sure Nurru, but that's not the fault of Arena weapons and the PVP system. That is the fault of random loot. For every guild like yours there is one that gets Talon of the Tempest 6 weeks in a row. I don't know if returning to an AQ40 type of weapon loot system works, but bosses should have a drop table that is exclusively weapons.
... bosses should have a drop table that is exclusively weapons.
Amen. Every time we kill Vashj and get the Gauntlets of Crestfall, my first thought is "that could have been a healing mace or a dagger".
I much much prefer bosses that have split tables: drop one item from this set of 6, and one item from this set of 6. Prince is a perfect example. Say what you will about Prince loot luck (we had 7 straight Sunfury Bows back when we were farming Kara), at least he dropped a weapon EVERY week. Guaranteed.
We need more of those. Any boss who drops weapons needs to drop a lot of them, and have one guaranteed. That'd largely eliminate the PvE complaint about RNG screwing with you. I still remember seeing 5 Belts of Unending Agony off of C'Thun, and never seeing the healing mace or the dagger. That belt gave us unending agony. :p
I remember in Diablo2 there's a kind of armor you can obtain by socketing their generic counterparts, which then transforms into something special depending on what runes you put in them.
I think that's what Blizzard was trying to do with gems, except to a much lesser degree. So my idea is thus, instead of dropping a spell damage sword that only 3 classes have interest in, have bosses drop "blank sword" with 9 (just an example) slots. You then put runes in only 3 of the slots, and depends on the configuration, you could end up with a spell damage, melee dps, tanking or hybrid sword. The runes would come from bosses themselves, and there is only one type.
Why couldn't PvE weapons be put on a Rep vendor for each instance, with "Icon weapons" being rarer drops off of bosses? This way, when someone has a certain amount of rep in BT, a player can get a BT level weapon.
Another option would be to allow players to actually SPEND this Raid reputation from the vendors, so that they will have to continue raiding to build up the rep for each upgrade.
This would bring it more in line with PvP. In PvP, once a month, give the top 0.5% of players a "weapon token" that would allow them to purchase an "Icon weapon" which would be slightly superior to the standard weapon, but it would look much superior.
All 41-46 dps, all with an average damage of well under 100. Intentionally. These are *caster* weapons - the damage range is just a placeholder.
You can't convert one of these into a rogue weapon simply by changing some gems.
Having said that ... I liked the idea of [Blade of the Unrequited]. It had some potential, and they should explore the idea further. Just can't take it as far as you suggested.
What I meant was the "blank sword" would be, well, blank. No stats, no DPS etc except for those rune slots. One you pop in the runes the way you want, hit transform, it then permanent transforms into one of the swords you linked.
What I meant was the "blank sword" would be, well, blank. No stats, no DPS etc except for those rune slots. One you pop in the runes the way you want, hit transform, it then permanent transforms into one of the swords you linked.
Like the depleted things in BEM except that you can make many different items out of them. Really this is just a fancier regalia system from AQ40.
Let's have a look at the total item ac quisition rate for arena compared to raiding.
The "average arena player" has a rating of 1500, by definition, if no teams are abandoned. Even accounting for abandonment / reforming of low-ranked teams, the average rating will be somewhere around 1600, giving something like 500 arena points per week. So a fully-stacked 5v5 roster of 10 people brings an average of 5000 points into the system per week.
Average cost of an arena reward = 1800 points or so. So, something like one item every 3.5 weeks for the average team member, or 0.28 items per person per week.
Now let's look at a 40-man raiding guild that clears Maulgar/Gruul/Magtheridon/3 bosses in SSC. This is where the "average" cap-size raiding group appears to be right now. That gives you about 14-15 epics per week, or 0.375 per person per week.
Slilghtly higher, yes? BUT:
1) The PvE items take vastly more time to acquire - something like 3 raid nights compared to half a night of arena PvP
2) The PvE items accessible to the average raider are a full tier behind the items accessible to the average arena player
3) A lot of PvE loot gets sharded, simply because the appropriate class/spec happens not to be there on the night, or already has it. You can probably reduce the calculated PvE item acquisition rate by 50% or so (unscientific guess).
4) You don't get to choose the order your loot drops in.
Of points (1) to (4), only number (2) can be altered by nerfs to instances / better PvE progression / increasing the ilvl of PvE loot.
Blizzard can equalise the quality of the gear availability to raiders and arena players, but they can't change the basic fact that the sheer number of epics per week is higher for arena players and that they can pick and choose the order they "drop" in.
A final point is that no raider wants anything except the weapons: the armor is useless in PvE. Looking through drop tables, it looks like weapons are about 1/10 of the total number of drops. So, how long does the "average raider" have to wait for a weapon, under the highly generous assumption of zero wastage? Well, it's (0.375 / 10) = 0.0375 weapons per person per week. Or to put it another way, a 26 week wait for any given raider to get a weapon. If you bust an absolute gut and clear twice as many bosses per week, you could cut that to a 13 week wait. And half of the weapons you get would still be a full tier behind the arena equivalents.
Conclusion: nobody should ever expect to get a weapon from raiding.
That's sad for sure Nurru, but that's not the fault of Arena weapons and the PVP system. That is the fault of random loot. For every guild like yours there is one that gets Talon of the Tempest 6 weeks in a row. I don't know if returning to an AQ40 type of weapon loot system works, but bosses should have a drop table that is exclusively weapons.
I wasn't blaming the arena system; I was pointing out a serious flaw in pve itemization and how arena itemization is filling the gaps. I'm sure we're not the only guild with such a drastic problem with weapon drops so I can only hope they address this problem at the same time they address arena weapons.
Personally, I feel AQ40 was the best example of how itemization should be. A token system that didn't have the "urgh, Warlock/Mage/Hunter token 12 weeks in a row" flaw and item tokens that dropped quite often and were solid upgrades. Granted, some tokens became trash loot quicker than others, but people were much more satisfied when we were finished with AQ than when we were finished with Naxx (I think 9 pairs of rot Warrior/Roguebracers).
Basically, the PvP system artificially pulls up the majority of players in this game by giving them a fixed timetable for progression, which may or may not have been Blizzard's intention. Whereas before guilds living in a vacuum could say, "hey, we'll beat Rag eventually, no big deal," now it is, "if we can't beat Magtheridon by x date, what's the point in even bothering because the PvP gear will have caught up."
Well put. After reading Gurg's remark on this disparity also existing in the comparison of 5-man blues vs season 1 gear (soon to be available for honor), I wondered why we hadn't heard the same questions being brought up in that context. The answer is fairly obvious - most players were ahead of the timetable when it came to getting through the 5-man/Heroic instance progression, such that it never became relevant to them. The reason that the question is relevant now, in the context of Tier 5 vs Season 2, seems to be that most raiders are stuck in Tier 5 content, while the PvP timetable has moved past to offer competitive gear to Tier 6 instances.
Aside from fixing specific itemization holes that other posters have catalogued (offhands, non-sword 1hs) I think that the timetable itself could use some fixing. It's not hard to view the accelerated PvP timetable as a reflection of the expansion's PvE acceleration, witnessing the rapid clears of BT/MH. Under a graduated release system (pre-BC), the gap between the top PvE and the average PvE doesn't get as wide, and the pace of bleeding edge PvE doesn't drag the PvP timetable ahead of the average PvE progression to the degree we're seeing right now.
PVP gear is not giving out gear atm equivalent to T6 gear at all. That is pretty much false. PVP won't get til T6 gear until the next arena season starts. There are two games going on right now. T5 raiders are not as progressed weapon wise as most above average pvp'ers. Thus from this comes the idea of needing to PVP to PVE and such. However on the other end you have a lot of guilds finishing T6 content already and farming them in <10 hours a week. Those players and the items they have are currently dominating PVP and this will get more pronounced as it gets closer to the end of S2, just like it did at the end of S1.
There will be an issue I suppose once S3 comes out but Sunwell isn't out for discrepency of quality in some loot, but I figure BT/MH gear will be buffed like SSC/TK is now. Ideally I think a new season of arena should come out at about the same time a new raid level comes out. Thus always keeping the more accessible PVP items in between the top line raiders and the one tier behind raiders, well at least in weapons which is about the only way it matters. I could see some damage to PVE if S3 comes out but Sunwell isn't out for another few months, just the same as I think PVP would be hurt if Sunwell came out while still in S2.
I think most people who are trying to progress but failing for prolonged periods on Magtheridon/Void Reaver/Vashj/Kael or whatever will just be happy to get past encounters they are stuck on even if it means that they DE more loot than they would have otherwise because more people have PvP epics.
Back when I was raiding with a few different guilds that struggled massively on several bosses before imploding (spent ~2 months on Nef with one guild and ~1 month on C'Thun/Ouro/Noth and went more than a few timers being unable to kill Twin Emps with another guild, in BC I spent ~6 weeks on Aran before giving up finally), by the 4th/5th/6th week of wiping on the same boss I didn't even care what he dropped any more, I just wanted to kill him and move on to the next boss so we could see something new.
I think the key is that there's nothing wrong with the weapons being "worthwhile" for PvE. They shouldn't be garbage. But they also shouldn't be completely on par with items from the same tier of raid content, let alone better (as is the case with Merciless Gladiator's Spellblade vs. anything pre-t6).
Somehow I've missed the reason on why they shouldn't be on par especially when Season 3 is months behind BT progress. Why should one avenue of loot be intrinsically better and the other one suffer? Without introducing a new stat as mentioned above (ignore xxx resil), wouldn't it throw out some of the balance in PvP? I see plenty of 2200+ teams in full Season 2 gear that are using Black Temple weapons and thus getting the best of both worlds for their arena matrix setup. Lowering stats on the PvP weapons without some sort of PvE weapon restriction, you would then be forced to PvE just so you could PvP; a topic that has been discussed to death. As you said, the only PvE advantage seems to be for mid-range PvE guilds (SSC/TK). But even then, a lot of those guilds would most likely be leaning on crafted tier 3 weapons to help fill in their gear gaps. By Black Temple the PvP weapon advantage doesn't seem as great when you look at the large amount of 100+ dps weapons that start dropping off trash mobs and early bosses with better PvE stats.
Anyhow, I would just like a bit more clarification on why some sort of change is needed as it doesn't seem on my end that the problem is that dramatic.
I like how the general assumption is that PvPers will gladly sacrifice damage for more defensive abilities or corny "resilience penentration" stats. In fact, more top end or more spell damage is MORE important for PvP than it is for PvE. The margin of damage for a DPS class in PvE is much more forgiving than in PvE. In PvE your #1 DPSer could probably disconnect and you'll still kill the boss (assuming it's on farm), in PvP if a spell gets resisted it could cost the match. The only reason why damage is important in PvE is for epeen purposes on damage meters.
For casters/healers, the Arena weapons might still be preferred over their higher healing/dmg PvE equilivants because Resilience is important to them. But for Warriors, Rogues and Hunters, using the higher damage equilivant over the more defensive weapon will always be the most popular choice.
If PvE weapons have more damage than PvP weapons, PvPers will either have to get that weapon or they'll be at a disadvantage vs guilds that both kill Illidan and partake in competitive Arena. This is already happening already with guilds who can easily obtain Nether Vortexes vs guilds that can't. So that is NOT a solution.
Anyhow, I would just like a bit more clarification on why some sort of change is needed as it doesn't seem on my end that the problem is that dramatic.
There seems to be an implicit assumption in this discussion that trading off raw damage for stamina/resilience (as ilvl budget allows) is desirable for arena. There are many times when this is simply not the case: 4DPS 5v5 teams, and to a certain extent 0-healer 2v2 and 3v3 teams rely greatly on having high burst dps. Even on more traditional teams, there are usually certain classes that will be "tanking" and others that would do better to focus on other stats; for example, most 5v5 paladins simply do not need to stack the ~500 resilience that warlocks and shadow priests are sporting, and should wear healing gear with spell haste if they have access to it.
On a more PVE-oriented note, how exactly is farming arena points to fill itemization holes (this is not limited to weapons by the way, high-stamina gear is useful for many encounters) any different than farming potion/flask mats, craftable gear, or reputation for ring and shoulder enchants? It's just another way people can improve their gear outside the raid environment, where drops are limited and due to the rng system unpredicable.
There are many who frown on any crossover between PVP and PVE, but in small amounts it doesn't seem like a big problem. The best PVP rings come from SSC, so what if the best shadow priest 1H short of BT comes from arena?
I like how the general assumption is that PvPers will gladly sacrifice damage for more defensive abilities or corny "resilience penentration" stats. In fact, more top end or more spell damage is MORE important for PvP than it is for PvE. The margin of damage for a DPS class in PvE is much more forgiving than in PvE. In PvE your #1 DPSer could probably disconnect and you'll still kill the boss (assuming it's on farm), in PvP if a spell gets resisted it could cost the match. The only reason why damage is important in PvE is for epeen purposes on damage meters.
For casters/healers, the Arena weapons might still be preferred over their higher healing/dmg PvE equilivants because Resilience is important to them. But for Warriors, Rogues and Hunters, using the higher damage equilivant over the more defensive weapon will always be the most popular choice.
If PvE weapons have more damage than PvP weapons, PvPers will either have to get that weapon or they'll be at a disadvantage vs guilds that both kill Illidan and partake in competitive Arena. This is already happening already with guilds who can easily obtain Nether Vortexes vs guilds that can't. So that is NOT a solution.
The whole point of "corny" ideas that have been conceived in this thread is that the PVP weapons will still be very desirable for PVP, but you won't see 50-75% of end-game raiders feeling that they need to arena because they will probably not get a good weapon elsewhere.
Ideally, Blizzard would do 2 things to fix the whole weapon problem.
1) Add a new stat or proc or whatever you have to on the PVP weapons that will keep them as desirable for Arena games as they are now, while spending enough itemization on said stat or effect to make them less-than-ideal for PVE purposes.
2) Fix PVE weapon droprates and tables. Prince from Kara is a perfect example- a guaranteed weapon every kill. Or institute weapon tokens again, or whatever needs to be done. BT-farming guilds should not still have a significant portion of their guild not geared with BT/Hyjal weapons.
If an arena weapon had slightly lower DPS, or less crit/hit/ap, than they do now, but also had "Ignores 200 of your target's resilience" or a similar bonus, any smart PVPer would take that in a heartbeat. Ignoring resilience would be a huge boon to melee classes in the arena- it would give much better chances to crit than they have now, and also let their crits do significantly more damage than their normal hits. It would still have to be balanced (200 might be a bit high, I just pulled that out of my ass) but that would go a long ways towards fixing the problem. It wouldn't solve everything though, because if they change arena weapons without doing anything about PVE weapon droprates, the problem is suddenly even worse for raiders than it is now.
I'd say best warrior and rogue pvp weapons, trinkets, rings, non set armor, cloaks, all come from PVE gear. And yes Dinadass, we've read the thread. Honestly don't see an issue with PVP gear competing with second tier raid gear.
There are many who frown on any crossover between PVP and PVE, but in small amounts it doesn't seem like a big problem. The best PVP rings come from SSC, so what if the best shadow priest 1H short of BT comes from arena?
When Blizzard added those rings with resilience to SSC drop tables, the vast vast majority of both PVPers and PVEers thought it was stupid. There were literally hundreds of QQ posts on the bliz forums from both sides of the aisle. Most raiders didn't want to kill a challenging boss in SSC and see a worthless (as far as PVE goes) ring drop. And most PVPers were disgusted to see yet another example of great pvp gear from a source that most of them are unable to get.
As someone who was a gladiator last season, and will be one again this season, and is also in a raiding guild that is working on Illidan, I don't personally see a huge deal with crossover in gear between PVE and PVP. But I'm the minority. Many many more people prefer to only pvp or only pve, and there is no reason they should feel forced to play both aspects of the game to excel in the only one they find enjoyable.
I'd say best warrior and rogue pvp weapons, trinkets, rings, non set armor, cloaks, all come from PVE gear. And yes Dinadass, we've read the thread. Honestly don't see an issue with PVP gear competing with second tier raid gear.
Meh I'm done for now, gotta raid soon. One last blurb, take it how you will.
I have no problem whatsoever with PVP gear being amazing... for PVP. I think the fact that the best PVP gear comes from BT is wrong, and I also think that so many PVEers are essentially forced to PVP to fill holes in their gear is wrong. Some minor changes on both ends of the spectrum would do wonders for most people, but Blizzard doesn't seem to agree, or is ignorant of the issues.
08/30/07, 1:05 PM
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