Information for the Masses (or, How to Keep the Players Informed) - Page 2

Malan · 08/31/07, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by andastra

I think the problem is that once you miss the patch where something is put in or weren't an active reader of EJ when something is discovered/discussed, you're going to miss it.

Exactly.

And this isn't a "hardcore vs casual" issue at all. As I noted in the OP, I've encountered people in high end guilds who were missing information on their class and playing according to the old rules. You can say "well they should have done some research" but what does that mean? I'm supposed to research to find a change that I'm not even aware of?

Here's one for you - a very talented and well geared shaman in an old guild of mine never took the Healing Wave talent that reduced cast time b y 0.5 seconds. Reason why? His understanding is that +Heal/Dmg is reduced according to the cast time of the spell. He had no idea that talents which change cast times are not subject to that rule. But there's no info of this sort anywhere to be found on any official WoW source. Sure, WoWwiki.com has info on this stuff, but Blizzard has also said that they do not expect their players to need to use 3rd party sources for anything. Blizzard themselves should be the defining resource for information, but they aren't.

Krollin · 08/31/07, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I'm supposed to research to find a change that I'm not even aware of?

In essence yes although you are not actually doing it like that or for that specific reason.
You show sufficient interest in the game and how you play it to go looking for more information about how the game really works.

The information is out there, Google is a wonderful tool which can help you in your quest (mildly amusing inference intended).

You still have to go looking regardless of how complete this information is and where it is made available. Knowing how and where to look is part of all of this. Many people simply don't have the skills, desire or even a need to do so though.

Did you know that all the patch notes are available on the Blizzard Website? They are you know and they are linked from the Patch Notes page too.

Originally Posted by Malan

Blizzard themselves should be the defining resource for information, but they aren't.

Actually Blizzard have been very clear about the fact that they will never provide details on any of their games to the extent that you seem to want.

Their rationale is simple: they want people to play and discover their games. It also saves them a fortune on web site maintenance not having to keep all this updated; they don't do it we, the community do.

I sense I am starting to repeat myself too, time to take a back seat and watch the show some more.

Malan · 08/31/07, 11:23 AM

I'm using the word 'I' in a figurative sense. I'm not the one who needs the help, I'm arguing on behalf of those who do.

Krollin · 08/31/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I'm using the word 'I' in a figurative sense. I'm not the one who needs the help, I'm arguing on behalf of those who do.

Always a dangerous thing to do, be figurative

The ones that you are arguing so eloquently and lucidly for don't give a flying monkeys. Well most of them anyway. They wouldn't even know about it because they don't read the words even when they are put in front of them.

Ironic really.

Metrosexuelf · 08/31/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

A huge portion of the playerbase is casual beyond what anyone who reads this board would ever consider "casual." Avid fans seek out the information they care about, under the current system. Casual players will hear about the big stuff, "Hey, there's a new dungeon in the next patch" or "Arenas are now live!" or "there's an expansion coming out next year that'll raise the level cap to 80 and let people interact with Arthas."

Agreed. People tend to overestimate the players that make up the vast majority of WoW's playerbase.

It's not like information on game changes is being published in obscure classified ads like settlement decisions and government auctions. It's the 21st century. It's safe to say 100% of the people who play WoW also browse the internet. Common sense would suggest if people want to know what is happening in terms of game development they would go to the game website.

Here's one for you - a very talented and well geared shaman in an old guild of mine never took the Healing Wave talent that reduced cast time b y 0.5 seconds. Reason why? His understanding is that +Heal/Dmg is reduced according to the cast time of the spell. He had no idea that talents which change cast times are not subject to that rule. But there's no info of this sort anywhere to be found on any official WoW source. Sure, WoWwiki.com has info on this stuff, but Blizzard has also said that they do not expect their players to need to use 3rd party sources for anything. Blizzard themselves should be the defining resource for information, but they aren't.

Disagree. There is nothing on 3rd party websites that can't be figured out by playing the game and examing the talents, spells, testing rotations, etc. yourself. Obviously not everyone is going to go through that but that doesn't mean it's incumbent on Blizzard to publish extensive guides and spreadsheets like you see on EJ, WoWwiki, WoWhead, etc. Let's say I go pick up a copy of BioShockand I'm having trouble on the third level. Am I going to go to the official BioShock website to look for tips? Of course not, I'd go to one of several third party sites or forums. This has been pretty much standard practice for the gaming industry since the internet hit it's stride back in the mid 90's.

Floria · 08/31/07, 11:49 AM

Just because people have completely and utterly min-maxed World of Warcraft does not mean that Blizzard likes it, or is happy to allow more people to do so. It is a video game like any other, and the huge fan base plus official forums and chat allow knowledge to disseminate.

How many other games do you know where they explain the actual mechanics for players? People do absurd custom Super Mario Bros levels that *rely* on glitches in the game's physics that wouldn't have even been admitted by Nintendo. True, that's single player, but hardcore Street Fighter/Tekken/whatever players rely upon pulling off moves *at a specific frame of animation* to continue combos, or to gain extremely short-term invincibility. This while Little Jimmy still can't manage to do a Hadouken half the time.

Some things become relatively obvious to anyone who wants to experiment: A hunter plays around with his shots a bit, auto-shots five times, notices that Steady Shot went off and auto-shot did not. "Hmm, maybe if I shoot *between* auto-shots...Success!"

Granted, figuring out Shaman Windfury that way wouldn't happen, but when you decide you want to play better, you go to the WoW forums, and there gleaming at the top are stickies that will tell you more than you ever realized you needed to know. When that's mastered, by that time someone's name-dropped Elitist Jerks, and you go there.

The information's available, but I don't think Blizzard has any more responsibility to cram it in everyone's face than Chess sets by necessity should include 500 page books analyzing opening gambits.

Farstrider · 08/31/07, 12:07 PM

Well, I think the point that I'm trying to make is that WoW is far more accessible to the "masses" than most MMORPGs before it (or so I am told - WoW is my first MMORPG), and with that accessibility comes a huge number of people who are clueless.

I'm not saying that the hunter trainer should show people how to interweave autoshot and specials, but some sort of clue of what stats the hunter should be going for, that sort of thing, would not be out of place in game in my opinion.

Cromfel · 08/31/07, 12:18 PM

Its beyond me why they havent implemented target dummys. It would be such an easy way to actually study your class. "Hmm, what happens in long run if I keep using this button instead of that". They have models for them, Theramore and Shattered Halls to give few examples. Many citys could have shooting ranges like those where people can go test things with their friends.

If they arent willing to give the information, why not give proper ingame tools to study your own class? Dr Boom and Blasted Lands mobs are there already. Why leave it to such. Lets say they gave Green dummys, whos got low armor and are lvl 60, 70 and 73. Orange dummys with leather/mail kin of armor ratings and last plated red dummys.

Alieria · 08/31/07, 12:56 PM

I'd say that I'm one of the types that could use something that Malan is arguing for.

Sometimes, I have less time to read changes then I'd like - I try to go over the patch notes, but as its been said, it becomes fairly tedious when finding info about quests or mobs I could care less about. At least they separate raid/dungeon changes.

And what about undocumented changes or "a number of epic items have had their stats reallocated" type changes? I only find these changes out through my (fairly irregular) visits to here or WoR.

I guess what I'd really like is a more detailed version of the "this week in wow" post that used to be done on the general WoW forums.

Mikari · 08/31/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Krollin

Having the Patch notes saved as an HTML page on your box would be something I would welcome and is also no showstopper to implement.

I guess you haven't checked inside your WoW folder for a while, because they already store the patch notes as a HTML file.

Lookit · 08/31/07, 1:45 PM

I think it's safe to assume that anyone who doesn't even bother to scroll down and look at their own class in the patch notes is not going to be doing bleeding edge content where that information is incredibly important. Who cares if a shaman running Shadow Lab is putting WF on both weapons?

A player who doesn't check their own class's patch notes is not someone who wants to participate in a 100-page mega-thread about class mechanics to squeeze the last bit of performance out of their character - they simply don't approach the game that way. They log on, do a little pvp, maybe try to run an instance if they're feeling hardcore. They do not fill out dps spreadsheets or run calculations comparing different talents.

The one change I would recommend (which is a small one) is to make patch notes readable while the patch is downloading. Presently, the patch notes pop up after the patch has already downloaded, and at that point many players probably just want to hurry and get into the game. But if the patch notes automatically popped up as soon as the patch started downloading, I think most players would read them.

oldmandennis · 08/31/07, 2:19 PM

Going out of their way to beat average users over their head with info they probably will not understand anyways is probably a bit much.

Given that some players are going to go into great depths in the forums, some are going to halfass it, and some are going to get a halfassed explanation from them, theirs always going to be a certain amount of misinformation or outdated information out there. Is it worthwhile to try and send an email to shaman who were clued in enough to do WF 5/4 to begin with, but not clued in enough to go back to 5/5? It's really a pretty small difference, and its something that a shaman class lead should catch. This is a MMO, and players learning from players should be part of it. Especially now that you can armory people and catch spec mistakes.

I would say that some mechanics really could use a blue post, rather then people spending a million years in the blasted lands and making their eyes bleed on WWS. The biggest culprit is weapon skill, which AFIK still isn't fully understood. It's original incarnation was just as bad, with many ACL gloves sharded before it was figured out. Other culprits include parry->swing haste and the level based resists of boss mobs.

Apate · 08/31/07, 2:21 PM

I've often wondered why there isn't a proper manual for the game. Are the players expected to run tests that determine the hit table? It might be fun for some people to work out mechanics on their own, but is there a good reason why Blizzard can't strike some kind of balance? Some mechanics continue to elude even people on this forum, such as miss rate vs. "boss level" mobs. Maybe it's my sleeping difficulties of late, but why isn't there a section on Blizzard's site that says "Character Statistics - Hit: At max level, hit rating helps players overcome the xx% chance to miss a special attack or a single-wield auto-attack, and the yy% chance to miss an auto-attack for DW classes." (written by someone smarter than myself, I hope)

Sceleris · 08/31/07, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Patch notes are rarely a sufficient source of information. They lack the context of all the discussion on the boards with CMs pushing out developer intent. How about the change where mages spell coefficient was lowered when they take talents that decrease their casting time? Where's the context for that in a patch note? If that's the first place you're reading it, all you see is that your class just took a heavy beating with the nerf stick with no explanation.

Malan has an excellent point. After almost every patch, we see a thread on a non-Blizzard board detailing what was changed but not mentioned in the patch notes. The discrepancies can be small or large, but if you are not actively following a non-Blizzard board, you may never know these discrepancies existed.

(Poor example since 2.1 notes were mostly complete, past patches have had larger discrepancies)
2.1.2 Patch Notes and discussion

Krollin · 08/31/07, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mikari

I guess you haven't checked inside your WoW folder for a while, because they already store the patch notes as a HTML file.

You live and learn

There I was always going to the Official Site to check up on them if I needed to.