Would you say bosses past Teron (gurtogg, souls, etc) require people to be adequately geared from prior instances - SSC and TK? I've noticed that since some of our players are still wearing Karazhan and heroic badge gear, our dps suffers and is visible on fights like even Naj'entus or Kaz'rogal. Some of our healers run out of mana faster than others. For example, since our dps is lower, our healers get mana burned more times on Kaz'rogal.

Looking at other people's WWS parses, they get much higher numbers than we do. We still kill the same bosses, but with much more effort / consumables used. Our progression has been extremely rapid, because we dropped SSC/TK from the schedule completely after keying everyone, and focused on Hyjal and BT (5/5, 4/5 respectively). But I have a feeling that now we are going to feel the result of foregoing farming older instances, as we face bosses like Souls that will strain our dps and HP/MP totals.

No, there is no really necessary point at which you need T5 equivalent at all in BT / Hyjal. Gear *helps,* but the enrage timers are not significant on any fight, and the difference in gear for a healer who is chain chugging super manas is not huge. Honestly the most important stat you can get going into BT / Hyjal if you're wearing crafted gear and T4, is more stamina. More stamina on the whole raid makes the several of the fights more forgiving.

Definately. That's really the crux of raiding in this game in my opinion: awareness and reaction. While Tier 6 bosses do have more challenging abilities to deal with than Tier 5 bosses, the concept is still the same -- can you process what is happening and react in a reasonable time-frame?

I was the recruit in this situation a few weeks ago. I felt I had the talent and dedication to make a solid contribution to Black Temple & Hyjal raiding. I changed timezones and servers at the same time and saw a guild that was in BT & Hyjal, about 4/9 2/5 at the time I applied. I was 5/6ssc & 3/4 tk and without a trial they said no. There was a spot open for my class and they said "No trial, nothing, nada. Bye." They were seeking my class but made a blanket rejection based on whether or not I had vashj's vial.

So I made an application to the only other guild with the same progression. The irony was this guild has no vacancies but their modus operandi was to always make exceptions for talented players. I took a chance, wrote a stellar application, and got a chance at a few trial raids. I made such a good impression, played my best, and on my first attempts on Vashj & Kael'thas performed extremely well. A lot of this was due to preparation, reading strats over & over, and when the fights happened, it felt as if I was doing them for the 100th time. It showed when I performed at an equal level to their talented players of my class. My ability to learn the new dances in black temple and hyjal hasn't faltered. The only thing that will keep me from being one of the best investments they ever made is going blind :P

Long story short, I impressed them, they took me on, helped me get attuned. I will always be loyal to them and more than go out of my way to help with whatever they need. I consider myself a talented player and they've earned my unconditional loyalty by taking a chance and giving me an opportunity. My gratitude and respect for their dedication to talent VS being snobs is immeasurable. As for the other guild, well, they're stuffed and can't find a suitable candidate (still), have attempted to poach me since I got attuned, and I'm more than happy to tell them to fuck off - I know where my loyalties are. The other guild tried to bribe me with the old "You'll get more loot and always be invited" crap (although I find myself in every raid anyway despite the over-abundance of my class). Not gonna happen. Ever.

Don't make the mistake of writing off players simply because they're missing vashj's vial or kael'thas. A lot of guilds have exceptionally talented players but these individuals will never see these fights because their guild doesn't deal with the problem of passengers/bad players. They could even be better than your BT/Hyjal geared players but because they're stuck in a guild with free-loaders/passengers, they'll never get the chance to show you how good they are.

If you ever get an application from someone who doesn't have BT/Hyjal attunements, don't write them off immediately. It can come back and bite you in the ass.

One way to scout is to host runs through TK, SSC, or even Mag/Gruul. You never know who's out there, how good they are, and if that night you find the best damn player you've ever seen of that class who would be loyal to your guild for years down the road.

Theres another side to this if you view it from guilds currently working on MH and BT. Going back to SSC and TK to attune someone is a huge timesink, especially if you only raid a few days a week like we do. We're not very interested in people without Vashj vial anymore unless we need them desperately, you have to take a look at the risk the guild takes as well. Spend 1-2 nights attuning someone and they turn out to be unreliable or not very good players. Yes, that was a nice way to spend your raid evenings that reset.

I dont think its unreasonable for MH/BT guilds to require applicants to at least have the Vashj vial, it would show you have some experience at least and be much less of a pain to attune.

It's just a basic question of investment Giske, is it worth 1 night of progress raiding to get someone attuned in order to better improve the chances of progression in future nights or is it better to just wait it out and hope someone attuned turns up. There's only a finite pool of people already attuned and with the amount of recruitment posts around there's a lot of competition for those people, hell its bad enough trying to get decent recruits at the TK/SSC level.

I agree completely with this. Most of the officers in our guild were in a different guild before TBC and were able to see what happens to endgame progression when you raid with too few core players (~90% attendance) You end up with too many casual fillers and learning takes a long time. The benefits of having more core type players for any given raid far exceed the negatives.

Our guild formed in the middle of this April and ever since the officers had the mindset that we wanted and needed a quality bench to be successful, but you have to figure out how to keep everyone happy. Players can rotate around for different boss fights depending on what gear they are looking for and almost every raider has understood our philosophy on managing the guild. Really only 2 players have left in which we think the reason was having to sit from fights from time to time and that didn't happen until maybe the day before we killed Illidan.

People's real life schedules change with school and jobs and the ocassional night someone's friends are all going out to get together. You will have much happier, less stressed or burnt out people if they can take a night off here or there. For attuning we've basically done either an SSC or a TK clear during the week while pushing to finish BT. So a recruit would have to wait 2 weeks for attuning.

But as it's been said, with certain fights requiring different raid make ups members have to be ready and willing to sit. A majority of fights in SSC and TK could be done with 6 healers, but then you get into some fights in BT that are best with 8 or 9 others like bloodboil where you may only bring 1 mage. If you can recruit intelligent people who will think about what is better for the guild to progress first, then you'll find good people for your raiding team. I'm an officer and I myself have volunteered may times to sit out of boss kills to allow my GM/Raid leader an easier time of getting people raid time. I love raiding and ofcourse want to be there, but I do what's better for my guild first.

Recently I've been building up our roster so we have some back up players. We've gone from a rough 25-26 people online at form, to an easier 29-30 people online at form. We are at a strained point where the majority of our raid days are working on vashj, and soon after will be spent working on kael.

We raid 5 nights a week, usually 2-3 on farm content and 2-3 on progress.

My question is, how do most guilds balance raid invites through this? Lets say for a generic class you have 4 players for 2-3 spots. Obviously some of these players are more skilled then others. Generally you want the better players to be there on the progress content, especially if they have been learning the fight the past few days. However, the better players also want to be there for farm stuff, since most of our farm stuff is pretty new, and they want gear from bosses they worked hard to down.

So where is best to fit in the more mediocre players so that tthey get enough raid time to be happy? If you put them on progress days, and have better players sit, you're hurting your chances of success. But if you put them in on farm days, your upsetting the players who busted ass to get bosses learned, and now they dont get to reap the rewards.

This is an issue I've been working through with my class officers over the past few weeks, and I'd appreciate any advice people had.

The people that raid in your progression raids just have to understand that when they aren't up for loot they may have to sit out. You don't have 40 people, you have 30 and that's 5 extras per night. Rotate people in and out for a few bosses at a time on farm content. People just have to understand that you have to have a surplus of players. For progression content you absolutely have to take your best players. You just have to.

When we were progressing in Black Temple we ran with 30 on per night, sometimes it was lower, especially when we pushed to raid 7 nights a week. When we were clearing the zone to the next boss to kill or doing SSC or TK I would constantly ask if anyone could sit and if there was anyone that needed or wanted in. Based on that I would make our groups for farming the zone and then when we got to progression I'd stack the raid with the best players and classes for the encounter.

I think it's even worse now.

At least in the old days - MC / BWL / AQ40 / Naxx to some extent (even with TBC looming), you could farm those raids for whatever items you needed for PvP. With the new Arena system and the separation of PvE/PvP items, there doesn't really seem like anything to "gain" by farming the same bosses over and over again. You don't need any more "progression" loot because you've beaten the last boss in the game. The only thing to gear up for is the Sunwell, and after that you've got the next expansion looming overhead with another "character reset".

I was recently looking around for a BT/Hyjal guild. I found that every one that had a warlock opening also wanted me to have the vial from Kael. I have the one off Vash, but no one on my server is even attempting Kael. After awhile I just gave up my search. I've been looking a little here and there, but can't find anything or get the same response.

With so many guilds looking for people and so little people out there, I have to wonder why guilds do not want to take a little time to key worthwhile players. I have seen some guilds just bump threads for weeks because it is hard to find someone keyed that's going to transfer and jump guilds.

It has nothing to do with what loot is sharded or where I personally would want to recruit. It simply has everything to do with time.

Getting someone a Kael vial costs me 1/4 of of our raiding time for the week. Because of the way you need to clear through dungeons to get to the progression content, it costs me my best progression raid for the week.
For someone that *might* be good.

I'm not saying the tradeoff shouldn't be made - it's just exceptionally costly.
The tradeoff really does come down to trial/key the one new guy, or get a guild first archimonde (kaz'rogal, gurtogg, whatever) kill.

Or not, because you could be missing that guy to make up a reasonable group for the boss kill Or for the next one down the line. Of course, this is speaking slightly exaggerated, since one more guy usually won't make or break your group. Then again, it really depends on your attendance each given night.

Perhaps you're even recruiting more than one person, and the more people you need to key and that you can key in the same TK clear, the easier the decision. Still, I'd just take that raid night and clear The Eye for attunement rather than risking sitting there with a worse recruit that already is keyed, or no recruit at all.

We keyed approximately 40 people before we started pushing BT/Hyjal. The reasoning is that this gives us a really strong core to progress, and hopefully with the occasional solid (keyed) recruit we will be able to make it through to Illidan and down him before we need to consider returning to SSC/TK for keying runs. At that point, we'd farm BT/Hyjal and go back to the older content when there was nothing else to do.

I have no idea if it will work out that way, but I really want to maximise my guild's face time on new content. I have no interest in SSC/TK unless I have no other choice. Even though the zone drops are still decent in some cases - we simply don't have the time to do them and still make progress.

If it wasn't for the overly restrictive attunement, I would *definitely* be looking for those gem-in-the-rough undergeared, but exceptionally talented recruits.

Have to agree with this. Just looking at the realm forums for proof, but there are soo many guilds looking for players who just aren't there (have both the kael and vashj vials), but there are alot of people who lack the Kael vial only. I think guilds need to realise that the very large majority of people aren't going to leave their current guilds if they are already in BT/Hyjal unless theirs is about to break up or already have broken up. It just seems the requirements for joining guilds is too high, Kael is the block in progression, and alot of good players are getting stuck there and can't get into these BT/Hyjal guilds who are recruiting because of unnecessarily high demands from the recruiting guild itself.

I would disagree with you and say the major issue is Vashj. I know some guilds in BT/Hyjal only want people with both vials, but let's be really honest, if they need an app or two (or seven), they will do the diligence and finish off TK as it is far less painful than SSC. On the otherhand an SSC keying run is both far less likely to provide filler loot to those in BT, as well as being a massive time vs. reward shitpile in terms of immediate returns on the keying investment(IE. "do we really want to invest in an app who couldn't/wouldn't kill vashj before apping to us?").

There is a single Illidan killing guild on my server. They do not want anyone without the Vashj vial because in their words, "SSC blows". I won't disagree with them, I imagine running SSC for the 20th time is similar to running MC for the 20th time, long, monotonous, and ultimately unrewarding to those who've been there since the beginning.

This is really a simple labor economics problem; a great number of firms (guilds) have high demand for a very scarce(let's be really honest here, there are maybe ~2-600people gamewide in NAmerica who are bt/hyjal keyed, LFGuild, and acceptable candidates) commodity. The smart guilds will invest in worker training (keying) in order to bring potentially excellent recruits up to speed. These guilds will improve their efficiency (and potentially rate of progress) due to reduced stress on core raiders (Queueing theory applies here), while reducing the chance for worker turnover, and preventing said turnover from significantly affecting the guild as a whole. If your firm already has low turnover, with a solid buffer of workers, you can afford to be more stringent in your requirements and lax in your labor investments over the short term. Don't let it bite you in the ass though.

I'm amazed at the number of guilds who are just entering BT/Hyjal that have "must be attuned to both Hyjal and BT" as a req for application. (I've been looking for a new home, hah, and with Alleria's situation, its been largely off server). Sheer common sense says that your recruitment pool is likely non-existant. I've learned theres a pretty common joke that to move up on Alleria, you cannot actually be on alleria, due to the complete lack (until just recently) of more than 2 guilds killing Kael (and those two having done so a good bit ago).

I honestly do not know who would server transfer servers to join a guild no more progressed than you already are (I seriously saw a post with "1/9BT 1/5 Hyjal, requirements: bt/hyjal keyed" from a guild actually serious about that message) unless there was no other choice. In that case, you likely do not really want that person, or you got lucky beyond compare.

Perhaps its just my years of doing recruitment in EQ, but getting a cross-server applicant that meets all of your standards, unless you're among the top guilds in the world (requiring BT/Hyjal keys as a guild that isnt clearing them, or relatively close to wouldnt qualify), to me, sends off a huge warning sign.

Well, we are currently 2/5 and 3/9 and require applicants to have the Vashj vial because running SSC is such a complete ball ache and TK isnt a big deal and people like the Kael fight. We've had 3 or 4 applicants that had the Vashj vial already since we implemented that requirement so its not so bad. We at least know they have some experience then. Although we got one holy priest with the vial who had no clue about raiding, sometimes you get those people that just tag a long for the ride then think they are uber and apply for a more progressed guild only to find out they belong in a Gruul farming guild.

We havent really had any problems with recruitment ever since we had our first Gruul kill in March, we've had a steady stream of applicants, then again our server has a very healthy PvE Horde population.

I hate to say this, because it's been happening to me, but I might as well toss it out.

My guild is not in BT/Hyjal. We just lost two of our players who got Vashj vials because they apped to guilds that were waiting for them to get the vials so they can get them attuned to BT faster.

In other words, if you wanted to be mercenary, you could look at the mid-size feeder guilds on your server. It really sucks for guilds like mine, but it's happening and there's nothing I can do to stop it. You'll get decently geared players you don't have to spend as much time getting attuned for BT.

I'm kind of against doing this sort of thing, for a couple reasons.

If nothing else, it's biting the hand that feeds you. Scavenge enough players from a healthy guild and it becomes an unhealthy one, all on its own. Plenty of guilds explode due to poor management or conflicting goals or being progress-stalled without anyone sabatoging them... why accelerate the process? There are many good players available after an explosion, but if you are constantly ninjaing members from guilds there's going to be tons of bad feeling for you on your server, and fewer guilds at a level advanced enough in content to be truly useful for you... scavenging begets more scavenging, too, as the guilds you've stolen from try to lure people from guilds lower down the tree than themselves. Vicious cycle, and one that creates a lot of bad feeling. This is very bad when it comes to things like purchasing Vashjes, and it means that the players most capable of guild loyalty will never want to come to you, whatever happens to thier own guilds.

The players you would be getting are the sort that are easily motivated to hop up to a different guild if they see a chance to get more loot or be farther ahead in progression. Not the best to deal with, and likely to ditch you as well if the opportunity arises! If you try to help guilds on your server along in progress, people will like you. When guilds explode, as some inevitably do, their best and most loyal players will have good sentiments toward you and you can pick up players that'll stick with you for a long time.

I may be somewhat crazy but I guess a side topic in my mind to THIS topic is "What can we do to improve the health of our own servers and increase the total pool of capable raiders?" Not only does this make recruits more available, the more people who are interested in raiding, the higher the priority for tuning and producing raid content becomes for Blizzard.

I think this is what most of those "unfair" guilds, which you guys speak of, have gone through.
I know it was true for mine having done many SSC/TK runs to attune people.
Some never made the cut.

Eventually you have to choose progress instead of attune 1 more random person.
After a while you and your guildies deserve a break too.

I feel sympathy for these unattuned rough diamonds but it's a long shot to claiming it has anything to do with elitism, selfishness and lazyness.

Clearly it doesn't have to do with lazyness, or really elitism, but let's be honest, if you're a guild that NEEDS a healthy flow of recruits (actual people that are viable members, not just a healthy flow of apps), then you need to deal with the fact that there are not very many viable recruits out there waiting to app to YOUR guild. This leads to you being required simply by the laws of scarcity to go through the keying process, and you should be honest with yourself: those members who refuse to go along with the keying process on the grounds of having run it a million times are being selfish. You might sympathize (and god knows that I, as an ex-EQ-raider (hey Gates of Discord! Plane of Time!) sympathize with all current raiders having keying grumbles) with those people, but you need to instill in your guild a sense of "this is for YOU, so YOU don't have to login 5 nights a week to key even further future apps, so you can have family time etc.".

I keep coming back to this issue of economics and scarcity because it just fits so damn well with this situation. You have a solid, profitable(haha!) firm with a great work force, but you want to grow that firm in order to assure its continued success, so you have to invest both in future labor(applicants!), and in infrastructure for producing more/better goods(more efficient/faster/less stressful/successful progression raids). Clearly there are some issues with using a purely economic model, but if you take that model with a grain of salt, you will see that spending now will reward you in the future. Greater risk tends to equal greater rewards.

So if you're happy with what you've got, and you're just too tired of keying to deal with more unkeyed apps, take a break. However, as I said in my previous thread; don't let yourself get behind, and if there are weeks where you can't do bt/hyjal due to people being absent/holidays/whatever, see if you can muster the forces for a keying run, it'll be a cheaper use of resources than during a full bt/hyjal week.