Effective Loot Table Distribution

Nezralix · 09/07/07, 5:54 PM

The distribution of loot tables has been a tricky topic throughout the duration of WoW's lifetime. The incredibly poor loot options available to some specs practically destroyed them prior to the expansion, particularly in the case of non-resto druids; at the very least, the lack of significant loot choices in a particular slot led to inter-class drama.

Relatively speaking, the token redemption system has been a god-send for hybrid classes, offering a solid set of loot for essentially any spec for at least five spots. Even beyond that, there's a greater variety of loot available in other slots for many specs, although this is mitigated somewhat by the the generic nature of rings, trinkets, cloaks, and necks. Aside from a greater desire to accomodate hybrid classes, some classes still encounter major gaps in some slots (for example, protection paladins are rather lacking in gear that isn't equally- or better-used by a warrior, and there are no spell damage shields between ilvl 110 and 151).

What problems still exist in this scenario? How can Blizzard further the process of distributing class- and spec-appropriate loot to players in PvE scenarios?

Nezralix · 09/07/07, 5:56 PM

To put forth my own thoughts on the topic:

There are still major issues with issues with loot distribution in 5-man instances, which still suffers from the pre-TBC snydrome of sets supporting exactly one spec for any particular hybrid class (there's exactly one leather item drop in 5-man instances with additional armor on it, and that comes from a Heroic), while over-itemizing other classes (my mage, for example, had practically achieved a full set of top-end blue loot before setting foot in level 70 instances, and I encountered a plentiful number of sidegrades).

To some extent, this is a result of some classes/specs sharing similar loot expectations. Mages and warlocks desire similar items, as do enhancement shamans and hunters. This is a bit of a crutch, though, since these classes don't have *exactly* the same ideal configurations, and shouldn't necessarily be required to "make due".

Perhaps Blizzard should further extend the token turn-ins into a system that allows the splitting of loot into an appropriate item at loot time. For example, in the case of existing class tokens, a mouseover dialog could appear that lists the available loot choices for that token, and as that loot is looted into the inventory, that choice could be made by the player (while the loot remains on the corpse in a "busy" state until then). This could be applied equally well to a "melee DPS ring" that has agi/AP for a rogue, str/crit for a warrior, or str/agi for a druid. It could be applied to a "caster off-hand" that applies to an off-hand OR a shield, that each are attributed spell damage OR healing, for a total of four loot options.

It's certainly a larger task to Blizzard, in terms of (a) associating stats with quite a few more items, and (b) coming up with unique names for them. But it's likely superior for players, and in another regard, it lets Blizzard avoid itemization holes by itemizing in terms of categories rather than specific items. It also avoids the problem of excessively cluttering up vendors with token rewards. It also offers an implicit solution to the fact that players currently have to look up token turn-ins in WoWhead to figure out if they want them!

That's one idea that, admittedly, seems a bit clunky in some regards, but still is likely an improvement over the current loot method.

How else could Blizzard deal with the problem of avoiding loot holes for hybrid classes and the "warrior in leather" problem for everyone else?

Glaurong · 09/07/07, 6:04 PM

I'd like them to use the idea of heroic badges to fill itemization holes.

Have every boss in an instance drop 1 badge of some sort for each player. Allow players to spend these on key slots that are very spec dependent, like weapons.

This would allow players to "eventually" get an crucial item and not be screwed over by the RNG. Never getting the item(s) that would allow their class/spec to shine.

Nezralix · 09/07/07, 6:10 PM

They're definitely expanding the loot tables for heroic turn-ins, and that's a good thing. But I suspect that those loot tables will still be somewhat limited, and almost certainly won't have options outside of a single ilvl target. For that reason, I don't think it effectively resolves the loot table issues in high end raiding or in 5-mans.

Whiteknight · 09/07/07, 6:14 PM

I think one of the major issues is simply the huge disparity between the amount of potential loot items per class.

To illustrate this problem, consider itemizing for druids. There are 4 viable roles for druids (effectiveness in raids notwithstanding), resto, cat-dps, tanking, balance nuking. Each of these 4 by and large requires completely different items.

Compare to a rogue, where mostly any spec requires the same armor and at most the weapons are the major difference - daggers/swords/maces being probably the only significantly distinct choice.

To take it to a further extreme, some classes share loot. Cloth caster dps typically all want the same weapons, offhands, trinks/rings, and non-set cloth armor.

So on one hand you have the requirements of itemizing 4 distinct specs for 1 class and on the other you are itemizing single items for 4 different classes.

This makes itemization and loot drop rates pretty difficult to balance.
It is precisely this reason that makes druid off-set loot typically rot, compared to dps cloth items always being highly contested. Each item may have a 10% drop chance from the boss, but the druid item may have 0-1 player interested, while the cloth caster dps item will have ~10 people interested.

Any discussion on how to fix itemization rate should probably discuss how to address the vast demand difference between various specs/roles.
The easiest and most obvious disparity that I see related to this is 2-hand melee dps weapons vs caster dps weapons - both having similar drop %, the demand being *vastly* different.

Phlis · 09/07/07, 6:14 PM

As an elemental shaman raiding T5 instances, I really feel the hurt. Blizzard seems to have skipped an entire teir of gear for myself, and my druid buddies. There is a pair of boots from leatherworking which I have, but no bracers, and no belt. If anything I see two easy fixes to this:

a) bring back 8 piece sets. As much as I loath this option, with todays token drops and variety in teired sets for each class, this would really work. A third set bonus would be welcome again, but that would mostly be icing on the cake of boots, bracers and belts with my spec in mind. As for weapons, cloaks, offhands, trinkets, I'm currently satisfied.

b) Increase the drop rate and number of craftable patterns from T4 level and up. If the bosses won't drop the items, let me make them with vortexes or nethers. As opposed to just having leather working for my Boots, I'd have the tradeskill for boots bracers and belt. Hell combine it with the idea above and make it a 3piece set. It would not bother me as long as the upgrade options were there.

Lookit · 09/07/07, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

I'd like them to use the idea of heroic badges to fill itemization holes.

Have every boss in an instance drop 1 badge of some sort for each player. Allow players to spend these on key slots that are very spec dependent, like weapons.

This would allow players to "eventually" get an crucial item and not be screwed over by the RNG. Never getting the item(s) that would allow their class/spec to shine.

Final bosses in an instance typicaly have loot that is of a higher iLvl than the prior bosses, to reward players for completing the entire instance. If each boss simply dropped a badge, it seems that players would be encouraged to simply farm the first boss over and over instead of completing the entire run. Would simply having the final boss drop two (or more) badges be enough incentive to clear the instance, or would perhaps the final boss drop something additional?

righ · 09/07/07, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Lookit

Final bosses in an instance typically have loot that is of a higher iLvl than the prior bosses, to reward players for completing the entire instance. If each boss simply dropped a badge, it seems that players would be encouraged to simply farm the first boss over and over instead of completing the entire run. Would simply having the final boss drop two (or more) badges be enough incentive to clear the instance, or would perhaps the final boss drop something additional?

I think he meant badges to be extra loot from bosses. Blizzard said that they will add HB to Karazhan and Zul'aman in 2.3, so its already in the works. They will add new rewards as well to fix itemization holes. I'm playing feral druid, so amount items that suits me is very small. I think more stuff that you can get without random part the better. Lets hope it will be good enough.

Glaurong · 09/07/07, 6:43 PM

Originally Posted by righ

I think he meant badges to be extra loot from bosses. Blizzard said that they will add HB to Karazhan and Zul'aman in 2.3, so its already in the works. They will add new rewards as well to fix itemization holes. I'm playing feral druid, so amount items that suits me is very small. I think more stuff that you can get without random part the better. Lets hope it will be good enough.

I did mean in addition to normal drops.

It would also be easy to have a variety of badge types dropped (Vash and Kael drop a different type of badge)

You could also play with the mechanics of how badges translate into gear. For example, badges could be turned into a quest giver for a loot token which then can be used as currency at a special vendor. You could do things like have the first loot token cost 2, next cost 4 and cap at some other number to give people new to an instance a quick upgrade. You could also allow trade-ups from one tier to another at a really horrible exchange rate to discourage bottom feeding while still allowing people to spend previous tier tokens.

Etc.

It is flexible and no one leaves an instance empty handed, even if the items cost like 10-15 badges.

Trouble · 09/07/07, 7:18 PM

While Blizzard has said they like the random factor to loot, I think there are ways to increase the percentage of tokenized loot while retaining random factors. First off, not everything needs to be tokenized. A good example is final boss "ultimate" loot, like weapons and trinkets and random items that are just really good. These don't have to be tokenized, there is always a place for random loot. Next, there is already an example of tokenized loot that also has a large random factor. Armaments in AQ40 were a relatively low droprate but they were awesome. Two tokens covered a broad swath of important itemization, yet they were rare enough to still be highly prized.

My opinion is that any niche loot should be tokenized, straight up. Any loot that can only be used by 1-2 people in a normal raid should be tokenized. There should be no moonkin, elemental shaman, ret pally, etc armor drops. Armor that can be used by one spec of one class is just frustrating for everyone involved. Next, I think there should be some weapon tokenization. I do not think all weapons should be tokenized, but I think there should be a base level of tokenized weapon itemization available. This to help solve the problem where a large amount of different kinds of weapons are needed, but will only be used by a couple people in the raid. Sword offhands for rogues, two-handers, spell power maces, etc. To go with that I'd say the popular weapons, caster daggers, slow mainhand swords, etc, shouldn't be tokenized and will retain their current status as highly desired items.

Blizzard has made many improvements to looting and itemization over time and I do think we're at a much better place than we have been in the past. That said, there's always room for improvement and I think tokenization is really the only way to go forward with loot. The more specs that become raid viable, the more difficult it becomes to itemize for them all without cluttering the loot tables with crap.

Axl · 09/07/07, 7:22 PM

Biggest thing that needs to be fixed is the god awful loot that some bosses drop. Its the loot that gets DE'd the first time its drops.

Some glaring examples as far as being a druid go are Vashj's Runetotem shoulders and the shoulders off the Illidari Council. Akama, Supremus, Bloodboil, etc, they all drop incredibly shardworthy items as well.

You could fill a lot more 'holes' in loot tables if you.. you know... god forbid made every piece of loot good.

Phlis · 09/07/07, 7:27 PM

Originally Posted by Trouble

\
My opinion is that any niche loot should be tokenized, straight up. Any loot that can only be used by 1-2 people in a normal raid should be tokenized. There should be no moonkin, elemental shaman, ret pally, etc armor drops. Armor that can be used by one spec of one class is just frustrating for everyone involved.

I dunno, 1 spec of 1 class? That would include Protection Plate(Paladin and Warrior), Healing Plate, Healing Leather, Tanking Leather, Strength Mail, and Healing Mail, oh and Healing Cloth sort of counts.

If anything heres a list of stuff that is used by more then 1 spec of 1 class:
Spell Damage Cloth, Spell Crit Cloth, DPS Plate, and DPS leather(though some would say rogue leather and cat leather are very different, but I digress).

Personally I think the 5 piece sets are fine, they are itemized very nicely for some classes. The real problem shows up in Bracers, Belts, and Boots for a lot of classes and specs.

PSGarak · 09/07/07, 7:37 PM

This is only addressing the issue from a drop standpoint, which is certainly the most obvious direction to look at it but not the only one; Tigole mentioned in interview that with the introduction of "free spell damage" on healing gear, healing versions and pew-pew dps versions of priests, druids, and shamans can share itemizations, reducing the number of drops that have to be spread around.

It does remain to be seen how that ends up playing out; it's entirely possible that the "free spell damage" mechanic will be entirely not enough spell damage to be a viable dps class, and they have different preferences for regen stats (although fortunately all the hybrid pew pew dps classes actually take advantage of regen).
For such gear there's basically two considerations that it has to satisfy: First, it needs to be an upgrade. If the free spell damage doesn't make it actually better than dedicated pew pew dungeon blues, especially cloth dps caster blues, then it's not doing its job. Second, it has to be enough dps to allow those classes to competetively dps in a raid setting. Even if raid heal gear is a dps upgrade over dungeon blue pew pew gear, it might be scaling at a lower rate than dedicated dps classes because it's spending its itemization points unoptimally. And I do mean that as a gear issue, not a class balance issue; the scaling is a result of gear available, not a result of simply less dps per point spell damage.

As it stands, several classes have at least some itemization available to them even if the stat distribution isn't quite optimal because they get hand-me-downs from dedicated dps classes. Cat druids take rogue gear, enh shamans take hunter gear. These pieces aren't bad in their own right, although cats want str over AP and not as much hit, and shamans want crit rating over agi. Tank and Ret paladins can even make good use of corresponding warrior gear. It's mostly the caster hybrids that get screwed, because the only dedicated dps classes are cloth, so they either downgrade to cloth or go without gear.
The free-spell-damage thing is allowing the caster hyrids to take correct-armor-type gear from their respective healer counterparts rather than their clothy counterparts. The issue of splitting gear is that different types want different stats; it remains to be seen if healer/caster leather/mail offers something closer to what they want that pure-caster cloth.

The other potential possibility is altering the game mechanics of the classes so that classes of the same role and armor type prefer similar stats; ie closing the effectiveness gap between STR/AGI and AP/AGI for cat druids, and that of AP/AGI and STR/crit for enh shamans.

Aside from that, more badge and rep rewards. More rings, more trinkets, raid badge loots, and maybe even purchasable rep rewards for raid reps. A major stumbling block of distributing loot for hybrid off-specs is that the amount of them you have in a raid varies a hell of a lot from guild to guild and you want to minimize the amount of burned loot if possible. Offspec gear is easier to give out if it's not "taking up space" that "something useful" could have dropped instead. Does this mean a boss will drop two group loot tokens, two turn-in tokens, and one loot? Maybe =/. Like tigole said, you have to balance it against the whole "what did he drop?" fun of killing a boss, because it is fun and exciting the first few times.

See also: low-discrepancy sequences for possible ideas on re-writting the PRNG.

Artan · 09/07/07, 7:52 PM

Something that I think the Devs haven't nearly explored to its full potential is distributing loot via instance quests and reputation.

There is a virtual cornucopia of lore and history behind each instance and it’s a shame the all we get is “Kill X boss, loot Y item, and have Z reputation, and I’ll give you a reward.” Remember the level of complexity behind the tier .5 quest line. If you’ve done the Netherwing quest line, you’d see how reputation grinding can happen without it “feeling” like a grind. Something as simple as putting on a Broken disguise while you kill Al’ar just seems to add so much more character to the storyline. More than a boss dropping the same badge for every person every week at least.

Whiteknight · 09/07/07, 8:24 PM

One approach, somewhat orthogonal to tokenizing is to deliberately make loot attractive to multiple specs/classes.

For example imagine a plate item had both the following stats on it:

Equip Paladin: +25 dmg/heal
Equip Warrior: Your Revenge hits for +60

This would effectively make 2 distinct items share the same loot table - and have something to offer both warriors and paladins. Obviously these two equip stats would use the same portion of the item budget to ensure the item isn't undervalued (because you cannot take advantage of both simultaneously).

A similar approach for multiple specs/stances

Equip Treeform: +115 heal
Equip Moonkin: +75 dmg/heal

Obviously this can be accomplished by simply tokenizing the bonuses as separate items, but this would allow for more variety, and gives the immediate gratification of looting an actual item and equipping it immediately.
And in the case of the latter example potentially adds the bonus of having at least some of your hybrid gear adapt to changing roles on the fly.