2.3 Discussion - Page 11

Buiden · 09/26/07, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fold

This is regarding the Shadowstep change, and I don't mean to flame you but this change just doesn't make any sense combined with the fact that Subtlety will never be a raid spec without some buff to sustained damage. Coupled with the threat reduction component, I think it leaves a lot of rogues scratching our heads as to what this change actually accomplishes.

Does it make Sub, specifically Shadowstep, viable for raiding? No. Does it improve the mobility of anyone (err, everyone) who plays arenas and recognizes the fundamental need for Dual Wield spec in the age of large health pools and resilience? Again, no.

The threat reduction certainly does seem misplaced to me. Even if a subtlety rogue was raiding with that spec (if say they buffed the hell out of hemo) they would already have MUCH lower threat issues than other rogues due to having prep/vanish for double the agro wipes.

kaib · 09/26/07, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Just as a thought, I can see guilds stacking 4 disc priests next time we see a fight where tank gibbing is a major factor. How do you balance around that? 5% threat reduction can easily be tanked through.

Originally Posted by ghando

This is exactly why I blew off rumors of this change after Blizzcon. 40% is huge. Even if it's only an 8-second buff on a 2-minute cooldown, it still seems so powerful that they'd have to balance every single raid encounter around it. 5% is a completely trivial amount. I'm extremely skeptical of this making it as-is into the live version of 2.3.

I'd bet money that this won't make it like that on live realm. It seems just way too overpowered in certain situations. They even mentioned that it's a tool to save a dude who is aoeing or just taking massive dmg for whatever reason. I really doubt it is intended to be cast on a MT almost every CD.
I see two things that will likely happen. One is just foeberance. If they wanted to do that, it probably would have been announced. Or they just forgot to mention it, of course, also not totally unlikely.
The other is that the threat thing is getting changed. If that is pushed up to 10-20%, it would be hardly possible to effectively use it on a tank. If a fight is running two minutes and you reduce the MT's threat by 15% instantly, dps has to be really low to not overaggro right there.
Problem with this solution is that the 'pain supression' part of the spell would potentially be obsolete outside of PvP. It would be just a targeted Fade as chances are the mobs that were hitting the aoeing mage/warlock will switch to someone else aoeing and not come back to that guy until the PS runs out.
I'd guess this is more likely. Probably 10%, maybe 15%. It won't be possible to chain cast it like that and it would hopefully not be enough to remove aggro from someone aoeing. After all you want the guy with the PS to be hit while it's up. Although if he just removes BoS that should be enough.
Also on 10% it would be a nice 'oh shit' button like LoH is, just on an actually useable CD without the big drawback.
Still, speccing for it would mean giving up a lot. I'm not exactly sure if it's powerful enough for that, there's only 6-7 healers in an normal raid. The healing output of such a priest would be gimped quite a bit, missing both the +healing talents deep in the holy tree. It would be a nice option though.

The Meditation thing is bigger for me. 15% more is huge. Suddenly paladins will have a real problem competing for the most effective healer spot with druids and priests as that boosts their mana regen quite a bit. It might be necessairy to revert that change to Illumination (gain mana on crit heal, might mix up talent names here with the use: next spell crits).

• Maestroquark · 09/26/07, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Fold

Rogue talent Ruthlessness will not proc on Deadly Throw anymore.

Even with Fleet Footed being +15% and Deadly Throw lasting one second longer, this is a killer.

A druid quickly shapeshifting will not be caught, period. And Combat's mobility is overall worse with this change.

In other news, piecemeal patch notes just tick me off. In the case of mobility, first they only announce the Shadowstep change. Then they mention a Deadly Throw change, which worsens mobility, in a completely separate thread. Finally they announce the Fleet Footed change, which still doesn't help Combat at all.

So either there's not more coming, and all they've done is short term annoyed Assassination Rogues and long term annoyed Combat rogues, or there is and they've short term annoyed everyone.

Seriously, the hints given out today aren't much of a help simply because they're not complete.

kaib · 09/26/07, 6:49 PM

Originally Posted by Larisroth

Some quick thoughts.

b) Where are the druid buffs. Druids have issues in every form especially when raiding and yet there's pretty much no changes for us. At the very least it'd make sense to make innervate work off a percentage of mana like the evocation change.

Which game are you playing? In the WoW that runs on my computer, resto druids are awesome healers, feral druids are very much necessairy for every raid as both tank and in the enh shaman/warrior/rogue/rogue/feral druid dps group and even balance is more then viable, at least our balance druid pulls his weight easily.

Playered · 09/26/07, 6:52 PM

Regarding the Intensity/Meditation change (5-10-15 > 10-20-30 % while casting), im believing this makes Innervate technically give less than it does now?

Im quite tired and cant really think through it, but because your normally at 15% -> 100% (85% increse), you will now go from 30% -> 100% (70% increase) it just initially seems off for me.

If anyone has the time to math it out or say with confidence it doesn't then cheers.

As to kaib, for Resto druids its Abolish Poison /and Remove Curse not working in ToL form that are the main issues here.

Dont believe its been posted here, but Moonkin can now cast Remove Curse atleast.

Fold · 09/26/07, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

Seriously, the hints given out today aren't much of a help simply because they're not complete.

That said, even though it fuels rampant prognostication, I'd rather have incomplete information than none at all.

Druid / Rogue 2v2 teams will you be hit hard by Cyclone and Blind sharing the same DR timer? I can see it as a definite concern, but something that can be worked with by switching CC and focus targets temporarily. Typically I'm saving my blind as an interrupt on the healer I'm beating on anyway, while my partner is Cycloning the other opponent.

Nite_Moogle · 09/26/07, 6:56 PM

Innervate will be 'less' mana returned, but only because it can't go above 100%. In all likelihood, your priests/druids/mages will be packing more spirit because of this change and will actually get more total mana returned over the course of the Innervate.

It looks like all the healing classes but Paladins have gotten some sort of mana regen improvement so far, which is a good thing.

Anaram · 09/26/07, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Buiden

The threat reduction certainly does seem misplaced to me. Even if a subtlety rogue was raiding with that spec (if say they buffed the hell out of hemo) they would already have MUCH lower threat issues than other rogues due to having prep/vanish for double the agro wipes.

I think it's just something to make it useful for PvE (in normal instances and stuff) they decided to add to the talent while already in the process of reviewing it. Sort of a convenience change.

Vaccine · 09/26/07, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by kaib

Which game are you playing? In the WoW that runs on my computer, resto druids are awesome healers, feral druids are very much necessairy for every raid as both tank and in the enh shaman/warrior/rogue/rogue/feral druid dps group and even balance is more then viable, at least our balance druid pulls his weight easily.

In the WoW that I play feral druids don't have much gear, the gear that they do have is poorly itemized. Their cat form lacks the ability to scale with other dps classes and their bear form has no emergency tanking aids.

Oh and you might want to try replacing that feral druid in the group with a rogue and watch your raid dps soar.

Uziel · 09/26/07, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

In the WoW that I play feral druids don't have much gear, the gear that they do have is poorly itemized. Their cat form lacks the ability to scale with other dps classes and their bear form has no emergency tanking aids.

Oh and you might want to try replacing that feral druid in the group with a rogue and watch your raid dps soar.

He's killed Illidan, and plenty of Illidan killing guilds don't use all "pure" DPS classes. Some use feral druids, ret paladins and balance druids.

• Poly · 09/26/07, 7:10 PM

•Cure Poison and Abolish Poison may now be cast in Tree of Life form (UPDATED)
•Remove Curse may now be cast in Moonkin form (UPDATED)

I had been hoping to be able to remove both while in tree form, but still an improvement.

dexvx · 09/26/07, 7:10 PM

Posted in the main PvP Arena selling thread, and I'll paraphrase here:

I think a set rating (1850/Weapon 2000/Shoulders) is bad in general. Some Battlegroups have 2K rating as the top 0.5% of players. I think it'd be unfair to expect having a Gladiator title (and worse) just for a shot at some items. And on the contrary, some Battlegroups have a lot of ELO inflation where 2K isn't really meaningful. I think instead of basing it on a static number, it should be based on percentile (rough estimates).

I also find it amusing that Shoulders require the highest rating, even though they are probably the weakest of the set (Gloves are arguably the strongest for some classes due to the equip bonus). The argument of "visibility", while sound for shoulders also pertains heavily for Helm, Chest (Robe), Legs (for non-Robed classes), and Gloves. Anyways, random thought:

Shoulders/Helm: top 5%
Weapon/Chest/Legs: top 10%
Hands: top 20%

Tyrn · 09/26/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Playered

As to kaib, for Resto druids its Abolish Poison /and Remove Curse not working in ToL form that are the main issues here.

Dont believe its been posted here, but Moonkin can now cast Remove Curse atleast.

We do want to increase the utility of the Druid of a bit, which can be a little rough in their specialized forms, so we are also making Cure Poison and Abolish Poison usable in Tree of Life Form.

WoW Forums -> Moonkins own arena

Sillia · 09/26/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by dexvx

Shoulders/Helm: top 5%
Weapon/Chest/Legs: top 10%
Hands: top 20%

So 80% of teams can't get a thing from the arena?

Playered · 09/26/07, 7:18 PM

Tranquility getting more benefit from healing / spell damage.