2.3 Discussion - Page 11

Mearis · 09/27/07, 6:59 AM

Because hunters have zero viable arena high end pvp specs, while druids have one very viable one - restoration. It is a lot more important to make hunters viable in some shape in arenas rather than making every single possible spec viable in PvP.

Prot warriors are completely absent from high end arenas, as are prot paladins, fire mages, etc etc... just deal that one of your very viable PvE specs is not extremly viable at the high end in 5 vs 5 arenas.

Aciara · 09/27/07, 7:11 AM

Originally Posted by aurae

I thik he means that feral druids don't scale in, and past SSC/TK, and/or are virtually non-existant in 5v5 arena and/or are virtually non-existant in top 100 arena teams of any bracket.

The general consensus is that the PVE problem is one of (non-)itemisation; the PVP issue is more fundamental. The arcane shot purge thing is clearly aimed at trying to make hunters more appealling for arenas; why not feral druids? ferals are right down there with hunters as the most under-represented class/spec.

In our BG a Pala/Feral combo got the Netherdrake in 2on2.. Don't know how many more there were I just know of this because I raid with that Paladin

elsirad · 09/27/07, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by Sebek

So...

The changes to Rogues are...changes to the Sub tree? So they nerf'd haste on us, they nerf'd our WF buff, they nerf'd our most common and preferred raiding spec (Swords), and are removing the damage coeficient from mage spells, once again making them OP in a raiding situation. And in return we get...buffs to the Sub tree?

The damage coefficient change is fairly small, will only affect one class, and won't even affect all specs of that class. Every wws parse I've seen with mages doing massive dps are from arcane mages spamming arcane blast and they will be unaffected.

If I wanted to cry wolf - well, the fix to make stopcasting macros unnecessary has the potential to be a bigger damage increase that would boost all casters regardless of class. (A blue said that they were aiming for that to be implemented in 2.3 too a couple of weeks ago)

Onomatopeizator · 09/27/07, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by Sebek

Well. In their words they said this was being done because people were complaining that players were able to receive T6 quality gear without having to "progress" through T4 and T5 quality gear. I guess that's true in a way. But the people that had absolutely no Arena gear heading into season 2, fighting against teams that started with full season 1, probably didn't find that all to entertaining. It's a different set of circumstances.

I think they could have done some kind of trade in policy, where you could sell your lower season gear back to the vendor for some redeemed Arena points, or that you could "upgrade" your previous season gear slot items by trading them in and paying some additional point fee. This may have been more in line with forcing people to "progress" in some manner of speaking. But I'm not sure if the grand scope of the playing community would be very excited about that.

I actually like that idea. To make items cost more than now, but to receive bonus for turning in previous season's rewards. That might require a decent bit of work and testing though. I'd also like if they differentiated between costs of current season and last season rewards a bit, currently I don't see a point for getting last season rewards except completing or stacking set bonuses.

As an addition to my previous post: making more items accessible only from a certain rating also encourages "powerleveling" of personal arena rating.

Fafhrd · 09/27/07, 7:43 AM

Been waiting for announcements on the promised nerfs to warlocks, like for instance the SL/SL spec. And lo and behold, it will happen. Mortal Strike will affect Drain Life.

WoW Forums -> About time they nerf warriors...

NmE · 09/27/07, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by elsirad

If I wanted to cry wolf - well, the fix to make stopcasting macros unnecessary has the potential to be a bigger damage increase that would boost all casters regardless of class. (A blue said that they were aiming for that to be implemented in 2.3 too a couple of weeks ago)

I *REALLY* need a source for that, since that would be the best (and most overdue?) fix ever.

Lithose · 09/27/07, 7:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sillia

I am not. I said "For sufficiently geared raids". That covers the entirety of the point. I responded to the point that one could get hyjal/BT weapons on a small amount of time raided per week. How would this be a different case if, say, a new recruit was rushed through attunement and raided only 5-10 hours a week?

You put the variable "sufficiently geared raids" in a retort to raiding over all. How about I put the variable that "sufficiently good teams" can take a poor player and get him a high rating, there for, failure still works? Of course if I minimize this argument down to a series "exceptions" that cover my points, I can win, but thats just silly, isn't it?

The point is, that it is a *rare* exception for someone to be geared through BT/Hyjal by a top tier guild, the majority of the people there got there through a ton of hard work.

Originally Posted by Sillia

It's been done. I've already posted several times in that thread about arena weapons, and I have also proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do get rewarded for losing in PvE.

It's really quite simple.

Any sort of trash epic drop or rep reward from a raid instance are your consolation prizes. They are your reward for trying and not succeeding. They even added them to Hyjal and BT recently. They've existed since the very beginning in Molten Core. They are your consolation prize, so that 'at least you got some rep, you got some trash drops, etc.' even if you did not succeed at downing any bosses.

It's completely false to say that PvE does not reward failure at all. It most certainly does.

We are talking about t6 equivellent weapons, I was unaware that "trash" farming in BT/Hyja were open to people who didn't beat Kael?

Also, your argument is, again, muting a huge point. You *can*, with a low rating (as you said in your posts), earn an entire set of gear. Your comparing winning random crafted pieces, and a rep pieces (This stuff may fill 3-4 slots over all, and often it won't be a weapon.) with being able to obtain a *whole* suit of gear+Weapon.

However, let me narrow the question down.

What tier 6 weapon (130+ DPS) can a warrior get, through failing at raiding?

Foundry · 09/27/07, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by NmE

I *REALLY* need a source for that, since that would be the best (and most overdue?) fix ever.

Here you go. From Slouken, the WoW UI Developer.

"FYI, we're working on something for 2.3 to help make /stopcasting lag workarounds unnecessary.

To answer the original poster, yes, using such an addon is fine."

WoW BlueTracker: Casting Latency Trick - Exploit or Legit?

Onomatopeizator · 09/27/07, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by Lithose

However, let me narrow the question down.

What tier 6 weapon (130+ DPS) can a warrior get, through failing at raiding?

I think there's a whole long thread devoted to it. Let me ask a counter-question:

How many upgrades per week can you get when raiding, as opposed to playing a mediocre arena team?

selectah · 09/27/07, 8:13 AM

You can't compare the arena rating to anything achieved in PvE.

An Example: We've been killing Illidan for a few weeks now. Still, 2 weeks ago we wiped 2 or 3 times on fricking Maul'gar. Serpentshrine + Tempest Keep took us almost longer to clear than Hyjal and BT - with almost the same setup. Still, we got the same amount of loot as the week before, when we were playing on a much higher level.

Imagine a 2000+ team slacking like that for a few days a week. Will they stay on this rating ? I don't think so.
It doesn't matter if you kill Illidan first try or wipe for 3 nights, the loot you recieve when he dies is still the same, even if your performance was mediocre to bad. If you play vs 10 good teams and lose 9 of them, your rating will probably not improve.

KamPa · 09/27/07, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by selectah

It doesn't matter if you kill Illidan first try or wipe for 3 nights, the loot you recieve when he dies is still the same, even if your performance was mediocre to bad. If you play vs 10 good teams and lose 9 of them, your rating will probably not improve.

That's assuming perfect drops and no shards... And isn't "PvP is hard! No, PvE is!" argument getting somewhat old?

NmE · 09/27/07, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by Foundry

Here you go. From Slouken, the WoW UI Developer.

"FYI, we're working on something for 2.3 to help make /stopcasting lag workarounds unnecessary.

To answer the original poster, yes, using such an addon is fine."

WoW BlueTracker: Casting Latency Trick - Exploit or Legit?

Holy ****, thats awesome. Thanks alot Foundry

diospadre · 09/27/07, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by KamPa

That's assuming perfect drops and no shards... And isn't "PvP is hard! No, PvE is!" argument getting somewhat old?

Pretty much, you people need to shut up about this stupid issue already.

Bunnyz · 09/27/07, 10:13 AM

Speaking about PvP, anyone have a good idea about how this will work?

This raises the question of a player finding a team that is of a skill level higher than their own, and simply buying the item with points they've gained at a lower rating. To restrict this we're implementing a personal rating system in patch 2.3. This is an additional arena rating that is unique to each character for each team they belong to. This rating rises and declines using the same formula as the arena team rating, but only in games that character participates in. You'll also be able to track this rating through the PvP interface. The personal rating will be used for purchasing items that require a specific rating, and also be used to determine eligibility for the end of season rewards. So, a player will have to achieve a specific rating, and not just get into a team to see the rewards that are meant to visually distinguish the high-rated players.

Based on my understanding, I guess there will be 2 arena ratings: Team rating and Personal Rating. The personal rating can be changed according to your team (i.e. player A plays for four 5s team, one 2s and one 3s = he will have 4+1+1=6 different personal ratings). At the end of the week, you will get points based on your team rating, but you will need your personal rating to buy rating-required items (weapons / shoulders).

If it's true, will selling arena point still be viable? (means that there will still be a lot of ghost teams to sell arena points)

• Playered · 09/27/07, 10:19 AM

Its most likely gained from each game you play.

Say it starts at 1500, and your a team buyer who buys a 2000 rating team.

After you play 10 games (worth 5 point win, 15 point loss) and win 5 loose 5, your personal rating will be:
1500 + 25 - 75 = 1450 Personal Rating.

If it was based soley on Team Rating then there would be no change to the ratings.

For people who play half assed in teams with friends and only play one competativly, then you will most likely get screwed abit.

However this is just speculation not a given fact about how it could work.

Venomia · 09/27/07, 10:31 AM

Not sure if it was mentioned before, but what makes me really ponder is the 33% healing into damage change, especially if it will double scale.

For example: Druids got talent called Lunar Guidance which increases your spelldamage AND healing by 30% of your intellect. Does that healing into damage change mean that druid with 700 intellect would get 280 damage instead of 210 like now?

Aciara · 09/27/07, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Venomia

Not sure if it was mentioned before, but what makes me really ponder is the 33% healing into damage change, especially if it will double scale.

For example: Druids got talent called Lunar Guidance which increases your spelldamage AND healing by 30% of your intellect. Does that healing into damage change mean that druid with 700 intellect would get 280 damage instead of 210 like now?

No it doesn't. This change will only be improving HEALING! Not damage and healing stats.

songster · 09/27/07, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Venomia

Not sure if it was mentioned before, but what makes me really ponder is the 33% healing into damage change, especially if it will double scale.

For example: Druids got talent called Lunar Guidance which increases your spelldamage AND healing by 30% of your intellect. Does that healing into damage change mean that druid with 700 intellect would get 280 damage instead of 210 like now?

Depends how they implement it. If there's some internal conversion from healing to damage, then yeah, it might double-dip (intentionally or via a bug). Alternatively, they could simply take every item/talent that gives +healing, and replace that with 66% healing and 33% damage/healing.

There's no way of knowing, and won't be until the PTR is up.

groktar · 09/27/07, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by syeren

Undead Priests having this buff is just absolutely devastating in any form of balance regarding arena PVP :/

Also the 3 minute cool down is horrible, I liked it being 30 seconds as it was something that you had to actively keep up and base your game around, now it just stagnates like most other buffs :/ This is a great buff to Warlocks in arena though, and absolutely awesome to those tanking Feral Druids and Paladins -_-

I don't see how this could possibly be a buff to tanking druids and paladins. You would need something like 5 priests to fear ward a player through every single fear on Archimonde. It just means Alliance druids/paladins can't tank them, either.

Deris · 09/27/07, 10:46 AM

But what it does mean is that in my pvp gear, I'll have 800~ +damage (1825+heal, so 608 spelldmg, then 230 from talent) which means big nasty JoR/Holy Shock crits and .5s Hammer of Wrath hitting you in the face for 1.2k+. On top of 26+% holy crit. This rules.

Also : Hunters are plenty viable in 5v5. People are just dumb and play them the wrong way in teams. We float at #9/10, and our hunter is 100% interchangeable with our Elemental Shaman, and even does better vs. teams that aren't 4dps. Long matches definitely favor hunters, espescially teams with 2 warriors/3healers where we have to play mana burn. Marks is the supreme spec for pvp (hell look at HAMCHOOK.) and performs very well in Arena.

However we also run with a Mace Rogue instead of an MS Warrior quite frequently, so maybe we're just unique. (and no we don't run 4dps.)

songster · 09/27/07, 10:49 AM

EU blues have started posting official summary threads collating information

Upcoming changes to Raids & Dungeons in 2.3

Upcoming battlegrounds and arena changes

Upcoming daily quest additions

Upcoming changes to Professions in 2.3

Upcoming changes to Warriors in 2.3

Upcoming changes to Paladins in 2.3

Upcoming changes to Hunters in 2.3

Upcoming changes for the Shaman class

Upcoming changes for the Druid class

Upcoming changes for the Rogue class

Upcoming changes to Priests in 2.3

Upcoming changes for the Mage class

Upcoming changes for the Warlock class

Information on changes in 2.3

Gogusrl · 09/27/07, 10:51 AM

Your personal rating resets for that bracket if you join a new team, so you can't just pad your rating by joining new teams.

and

It's also used to determine end-of-season reward eligibility (titles and/or special mount). To be eligible a player's personal rating on the team must be at least within 100 rating of their team's rating. This will take effect with season 3 (not season 2, since players don't currently have personal ratings).

WoW Forums -> Selling Arena Teams?

BeeLz · 09/27/07, 11:21 AM

Detect Magic removed. All players may now see their target's beneficial effects at all times.

Pretty nice change in my opinion.
One of the better patches since wow launch it seems. Probably a bit early to tell though :p

Nezralix · 09/27/07, 11:39 AM

I was certainly hoping to see more like a 50% healing -> spell damage conversion, just considering that many healing-specced classes still do miserable damage with comparatively powerful spell damage sets. It probably gives hybrid classes some options, particularly Discipline priests and elemental shamans. I think they still need to do something in terms of awarding some base mana regeneration to all mana-using classes, preferably based on INT, because the zero-regen thing that most mana-using non-healers having going for them is really pretty atrocious.

On a personal note, if they'd give Seal of Righteousness the ability to crit based on spell crit, my holy paladin would be highly grindable!

heel · 09/27/07, 11:41 AM

Detect Magic removed. All players may now see their target's beneficial effects at all times.

This is an excellent change. It reduces the need for third-party addons for pvp, and that's always a good thing.