Its not the whole arena gear, its S3/T6 level arena gear?
People will still be able to get S2/T5 level gear, and to be quite honest it seems fine that after an amount of time anyone wont be able to get items of the top level, only the ones who deserve it.
The mediocre teams are the ones who suffer at this point then. The majority of the teams are going to be within the first standard deviation from the median (1500), and the 1850 or 2000 rating requirement is almost certainly outside of the 2nd standard deviation.
For example, my warrior currently has 3/5 S2 arena gear already (chest, leg, shoulder), and enough points saved to buy the gloves and have some change. Let's say that the current season lasts another 3 weeks, and S3 then begins. My team fluctuates between 1500-1600 rating (BG9, go go competition), so we'll assume that an average of 450 points come each week.
I have 1550 points saved. In 3 weeks, that number will be 2900. I'll be 100 points shy of 5/5 S2 armor. Then Season 3 begins.
What do I have to look forward to? I've gotten all 5 pieces of the S2 armor. I can't get any of the S3 armor. I can only buy an old S2 weapon (3261 points for a 2Hander), and a thrown weapon (870 points). 4131 points. Add 100 to pay for the last piece of S2 armor, so 4231. This assumes that I don't get something better (or even equivalent), like the new 2H Sword available from Zul'Aman).
We've begun week 15 of Season 2. If we extend it till season 3 (estimate 3 weeks), that means that I'll earn a total of 8100 points over the period of 18 weeks of season 3. This means I'm going to end up having 3869 points unspent at the end of season 3.
That's roughly 2 months of no benefit, or upgrades. Why would I continue to even play in the arena?
I seriously doubt we'll have another season after season 3. XPac 2 is coming up. They'll introduce it, and then all of the arena gear will mostly get scrapped again. Just looking at the amount of time, you're going to get huge amounts of stratification because the mediocre players (those within the first standard deviation) are going to have little reason to continue playing.
Then the rating system for items is not the problem, its the aquirement of rating from bad battlegroups.
Remove the rating requirements and you still have the latter problem which causes the issue...?
And there will no-doubt be a S4 to allow people to catch-up to Sunwell level items before the next expansion.
Its not the whole arena gear, its S3/T6 level arena gear?
People will still be able to get S2/T5 level gear, and to be quite honest it seems fine that after an amount of time anyone wont be able to get items of the top level, only the ones who deserve it.
Edit Sillia gave the same example with similar numbers as too why this suggestion would be bad. Except his is better written.
But the 1850 number is interesting to me as for brief periods both my 2v2 and 5v5 have peaked at 1840 during the season. Sit on 3k points just in case?
That's roughly 2 months of no benefit, or upgrades. Why would I continue to even play in the arena?
To attempt to raise your rating, and hopefully for fun, unless you're just playing for welfare epics. Which, obviously, isn't really the point of Arena.
It should be noted that the S3 weapon & shoulders rating requirement is based off one's personal rating, and not any team rating. Since specific details about how the personal rating will work are unknown, I think it's early to criticize the system.
To attempt to raise your rating, and hopefully for fun, unless you're just playing for welfare epics. Which, obviously, isn't really the point of Arena.
In a perfect world, people raid for fun and the experience and not the loot too. In reality, it isn't going to happen.
My point was that you shouldn't discount the movement advantage the change offers; even if that movement change by itself isn't enough to make the spec attractive to you, the new shadowstep isn't totally comparable to a slightly cheaper backstab every X seconds.
I think I'd disagree with you about the absolute necessity of DW spec compared to the possible options a revamped subtlety tree could offer, although it may still turn out that heavy subtlety is indeed the subpar choice. I'm not exactly in top arena teams, so I'm not presuming to judge such things, I just didn't want the additional advantage the new shadowstep offers written off so casually.
Your point is well taken that we shouldn't judge the changes without the context of ALL the changes. My comment was just pointing out that the Shadowstep change won't affect many rogues since the failings of the spec aren't necessarily related to Shadowstep, but more that DPS falls flat on it's face once you're out of stealth which is a large majority of the time in the arena.
The change doesn't do anything for the majority of rogues who are complaining about lack of mobility, because they don't have Shadowstep to begin with. If they buffed Sub sustained damage or gave Sub some kind of resilience penetration or something then it might become viable for arena and the change will be well received. Mobility won't do me a whole lot of good if I have to sacrifice my ability to do discernable damage to get it.
I think we should take prop bets on when 2.3 is coming out.
That being said aside from 2.3 I don't see much here that makes a big difference. Sunder/deva is interesting but most of these issues don't change gameplay much for raiding guilds aside from content and retuning passes. (Although the haste nerf hurts when you have 2 pairs of legendaries).
That being said aside from 2.3 I don't see much here that makes a big difference. Sunder/deva is interesting but most of these issues don't change gameplay much for raiding guilds aside from content and retuning passes.
So basically you can unbind your sunder key that gets hit 5x a fight, and pick up improved sunder, taking devastate down to 9 rage. That could make "prot dps" a little better I suppose.
Originally Posted by Quigon
(Although the haste nerf hurts when you have 2 pairs of legendaries).
In a perfect world, people raid for fun and the experience and not the loot too. In reality, it isn't going to happen.
No offence and I dont mean it personally, but your in a guild thats not done SSC/TK and your only arena team (5v5) is a 1563 rating 50% win ratio, do you really deserve S3 epics that are equal in level to MH or BT items?
If your server/battlegroup is truely holding back your PvP potential then do what PvE'ers do and transfer to a different realm with a larger pool of players to play against with your friends.
This isn't about deserving epics. If people can't win items they won't play. If people stop playing then the top-20% suddenly becomes the top-50% (or whatever) and two thirds of those who thought they were good now can't buy the gear. And some of them quit so the bar rises again.
For example, my warrior currently has 3/5 S2 arena gear already (chest, leg, shoulder), and enough points saved to buy the gloves and have some change. Let's say that the current season lasts another 3 weeks, and S3 then begins. My team fluctuates between 1500-1600 rating (BG9, go go competition), so we'll assume that an average of 450 points come each week.
Please don't use being in BG9 as an excuse for being 1500 rated. On the vast majority of Battlegroups, at low ratings like 1500, there's no difference.
What do I have to look forward to?
Becoming a better player and increasing your rating? If that's not desirable to you, as has been already said, you're essentially getting "welfare epics".
Apologies if this has already been posted, but I could not see it anywhere in this thread;
Fear Ward will be available to all priests at level 20, but there are some changes in addition. Current plans are to reduce duration to 3 minutes, and increase the cooldown to 3 minutes.
To give the dwarves and draenei something else to even it out, they'll see a new ability called Chastise (also given at level 20) which will cause holy damage and incapacitate the target for 2 seconds.
Undead (which is a fairly high majority unless im mistaken) Priests just became that little step further into being fear immune.
I suppose limiting FW like that promotes bringing more than 1 priest on the encounters that 'need' it, for raiding Alliance guilds its going to be an interesting feature to adapt to.
While the other priest changes look pretty good, the one with Fear Ward is just... They are basically removing it from PvE with cooldown nerf - which could be ok, I mean it was somewhat imbalanced for a long time. However, claiming that they are balancing the racials, while at the same time giving Dranei/Dwarves "Holy Gouge/Repentance" is mind boogling. This will solve nothing about racial imbalances between Priests, if anything, it will make them even worse, making Dwarves best PvP priests by far - which they were already anyway.
Undead Priests having this buff is just absolutely devastating in any form of balance regarding arena PVP :/
Also the 3 minute cool down is horrible, I liked it being 30 seconds as it was something that you had to actively keep up and base your game around, now it just stagnates like most other buffs :/ This is a great buff to Warlocks in arena though, and absolutely awesome to those tanking Feral Druids and Paladins -_-
While the other priest changes look pretty good, the one with Fear Ward is just... They are basically removing it from PvE with cooldown nerf - which could be ok, I mean it was somewhat imbalanced for a long time. However, claiming that they are balancing the racials, while at the same time giving Dranei/Dwarves "Holy Gouge/Repentance" is mind boogling. This will solve nothing about racial imbalances between Priests, if anything, it will make them even worse, making Dwarves best PvP priests by far - which they were already anyway.
I can only assume the new racial spell will have a cast time.
The thing that bugs me about it is that it's another case of the WoW MMO team using a name from a WoW TCG card and putting it somewhere entirely inappropriate. ;-P Totemic Call they got right, but Sacred Duty and now Chastise are Paladin/Priest generic abilities that they made into talents and racial spells, respectively.
Then again, I'm sure I'm one of two people who cares about that.
No offence and I dont mean it personally, but your in a guild thats not done SSC/TK and your only arena team (5v5) is a 1563 rating 50% win ratio, do you really deserve S3 epics that are equal in level to MH or BT items?
If your server/battlegroup is truely holding back your PvP potential then do what PvE'ers do and transfer to a different realm with a larger pool of players to play against with your friends.
If Blizzard somehow decides I do not 'deserve' items, then that's what they decide. If I don't deserve items (and can't get to the point that I do), I probably won't pvp anymore.
That isn't the problem. The problem is that the rating system will pull people down, feeding on itself. Let's say that I can't get any items at all, so I quit. That's fine, nobody will miss me. The teams below me will quit too, since they don't have a chance to get anything. Those teams that would fight me and win will no longer fight me... they'll only fight teams better than they are. So they lose, and their rating goes down. The teams above them will lose some rating, and the teams above them will, and so on and so forth. It percolates up, until equilibrium is reached again. But then the teams that used to be 'deserving' no longer deserve items, because their ratings dropped. So they'd probably quit too. And then the overall ratings drop yet again...
Originally Posted by Adiar
Please don't use being in BG9 as an excuse for being 1500 rated. On the vast majority of Battlegroups, at low ratings like 1500, there's no difference.
I'm a mediocre pvper. I freely admit it. I don't spec optimally for pvp, I don't gear optimally for pvp, but I am not a bad player. I've never stated I was awesome, and that the BG is holding me back. Perhaps on another battlegroup, I would be higher rated. Perhaps not. I don't know. I do know that I am a mediocre pvper. That's why I hover near 1500-1600. It doesn't change the points I have made regarding the situation.
There are plenty of players in my situation. Just going from a normal bell curve distribution, at least 50% of the players in any given battlegroup will be in my situation.
The premise of the point that a previous poster made was that they should restrict season 3 gear to only the top 20% of the arena teams. My point was that, should they do that, a large number of players (such as myself) would lose their incentive to play.
Becoming a better player and increasing your rating? If that's not desirable to you, as has been already said, you're essentially getting "welfare epics".
I pvp to advance my character, and to have fun with friends. It is a means to an end. If they removed loot from raiding, do you think that people would continue to raid for the experience and fun? I think that some would, but many would not. It is similar with pvp. The joy of increasing your rating, and improving play is an incentive, to be sure. However, for most people, it is insufficient incentive.
Not to mention that this simply isn't true.
Please read with context in mind. The discussion sprang from someone saying that the S3 gear should only be available to the top 20% of teams.
This isn't about deserving epics. If people can't win items they won't play. If people stop playing then the top-20% suddenly becomes the top-50% (or whatever) and two thirds of those who thought they were good now can't buy the gear. And some of them quit so the bar rises again.
Guess Blizzard aren't stupid then as they only have rating requirements on 1 piece of the armor and the weapons and this discussion can stop as its not even related on something that is part of 2.3.
Giving FW to other priests I don't mind, and actually it would be good to see it be something the priest class gains to make it more effective as a whole. But cooldown to 3 minutes? Now I am anno... wait, 2 second CC? Oh happy days!
The premise of the point that a previous poster made was that they should restrict season 3 gear to only the top 20% of the arena teams. My point was that, should they do that, a large number of players (such as myself) would lose their incentive to play.
Sorry, I'm an idiot and most have glossed over that. My bad.
I pvp to advance my character, and to have fun with friends.
Although it's not a form of character advancement in the strict sense of the term, don't you get satisfaction though out of bettering your skills and rating? When I was raiding, I was still thrilled on our first Patchwerk kill although there was no loot for me, and never was any chance at any from it. There was no tangible character progression for me through Naxx (I don't think I got one item, and we were 9/14 bosses or something) and I still had a lot of fun. I improved as a player and we achieved things. That was the fun. Not to even touch on the having fun with friends part, which is doable without any rewards.
I don't spec optimally for pvp, I don't gear optimally for pvp
Yet you expect to be given epics despite this?
Originally Posted by Sillia
If they removed loot from raiding, do you think that people would continue to raid for the experience and fun? I think that some would, but many would not. It is similar with pvp. The joy of increasing your rating, and improving play is an incentive, to be sure. However, for most people, it is insufficient incentive.
Except PvE requires a much bigger commitment and much more time to get those epics. In your situation, you can play 10 games a week, win 5, lose 5, and still get really good epics.
The whole point of a MMO is gear or character progression, but when that comes for free, whats the point? Most of the fun comes from the journey to get there, the obstacles you have to overcome, etc. At least the way thats the way I see it. And its only two items.
EDIT: and I don't agree that every item should have these requirements.
Guess Blizzard aren't stupid then as they only have rating requirements on 1 piece of the armor and the weapons and this discussion can stop as its not even related on something that is part of 2.3.
It is related. As pointed out before, Blizzard's rating requirements won't adequately do the job. On one battlegroup, only the top 3 teams would be able to get shoulders. That's ridiculous.
Wyvern Sting becomes instacast.
Arcane Shot ranks 6 and up dispel a magic effect on the target.
say what? I've been hunting high and low (pardon the pun) for any information on Hunter changes. The only thing with backing that I have found so far is stings and traps scaling with ranged attack power.
It is related. As pointed out before, Blizzard's rating requirements won't adequately do the job. On one battlegroup, only the top 3 teams would be able to get shoulders. That's ridiculous.
I have no boots or belt upgrade from T5 content into T6 content, you have no Shoulder upgrade from S2 PvP to S3 PvP, I fail to see any huge problem.
As stated, the issue is with battlegroups not with rating requirement.
Keep in mind this:
Originally Posted by Blizz
This raises the question of a player finding a team that is of a skill level higher than their own, and simply buying the item with points they've gained at a lower rating. To restrict this we're implementing a personal rating system in patch 2.3. This is an additional arena rating that is unique to each character for each team they belong to. This rating rises and declines using the same formula as the arena team rating, but only in games that character participates in. You'll also be able to track this rating through the PvP interface. The personal rating will be used for purchasing items that require a specific rating, and also be used to determine eligibility for the end of season rewards. So, a player will have to achieve a specific rating, and not just get into a team to see the rewards that are meant to visually distinguish the high-rated players.
So ratings might not be so bad as you think...
If your seriously wanting to get S3 shoulders then spec correctly for arena and make your personal games count to raise your rating up beyond the others.
09/26/07, 7:46 PM
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