Well me and a fellow warrior (also in enough +def to not be crit) noticed that the trash rogues on the way to the council also crit us once or twice, so I didn't think it would be strange for the Veras to do the same :S
Also, I've been using the same tanking gear for a while and I never get crit, so I just thought it was some special mechanic because he is a rogue type mob.
I think the extra crit chance may be really low, because out of our whole night of attempts I only noticed it once. But he doesn't hit too hard anyway, so it wasn't really a problem. I was just pointing it out :P
JoC reflects every time here.... and its damn easy with that massive cast timer. JoB definitely doesn't like Maraudor said. Removing JoC really reduces his bursts portential.
And it also adds quite a bit to tank threat, which unfortunately doesn't show up on Omen.
It's rather easy to reflect as he alternates between the 2 judgements. Judgement of Blood always leaves you with plenty rage to reflect JoC.
Not sure if this has been noted before, but I think the rogue has a higher crit chance than normal boss mobs. I've been crit by him once or twice in my tanking set which I have 415 defense in (415 is the uncrittable level for druids btw).
The rogue and the Illidari Assasins in the trash packs upto the boss can use Cold Blood.
I agree the fight lacks something; there's the general Twin Emps feel in terms of length, tank damage spikes and environmental damage but nothing like the same pressure in terms of the race to beat the enrage. As it stands you can stack up healers, pvp gear, lose a lot of people and still beat the timer with ease.
Reducing the enrage timer would be the obvious way of making it slightly more exciting, but you'd still be left with a 4 mob encounter where 2 of the mobs are taken off to one side and locked down by a single tank/ healer team.
It would be much more interesting if they did something like:
- Gave the rogue CloS;
- Put BoP on the paladin instead of the priest;
- Give the priest inner fire that can't be dispelled (or something similar - give an incentive to attack the rogue rather than the priest when he's there other than just reflective shield, which is random); and
- Buffed the paladins magic aura to be even higher resistance, but shorter range.
This would encourage switching for the melee between the priest and the rogue, and for the ranged between the paladin and the mage. The AoE's mean people still need to be on their toes (i.e. spread out, melee have to watch it and doesn't encourage stacking melee), and DP is still being cast on random people while the rogue vanishes. The thing that made the twin emps good was the fact you couldn't just pile everyone on one of them because of the immunities. The enrage timer was also well timed, which (other than the pre-nerf Hydross and Leo ones) none of the bosses in TBC have had. They could also add a spell that means that when you bring them within 25-30 yards of each other, they heal/buff each other/do something nasty, just to encourage movement in the fight.
I really liked the twin emps (and I do like the idea of the Council, even if it's flawed right now). The Council could be a very good fight that's of a similar standard, even if it's not in a massive room fighting two giant mobs (which also takes away a bit from the 'epicness' of the Council as well, imo).
The rogue takes extra damage (cant remember how much exactly) when he is stunned.
Are you sure it's only when he's stunned? Because I do ridiculous mauls and mangles on him, almost 2k crits in tanking gear. I was thinking it might be a component of the paladin's auras. Once we had a moonkin fire a couple starfires at him and he was... happy with his numbers, to say the least.
Are you sure it's only when he's stunned? Because I do ridiculous mauls and mangles on him, almost 2k crits in tanking gear. I was thinking it might be a component of the paladin's auras. Once we had a moonkin fire a couple starfires at him and he was... happy with his numbers, to say the least.
I'm pretty sure it's not just when he's stunned (didn't even know you could stun him): Loading...
Compare that to the damage on gurtogg with full sunders in a melee DPS group: Loading...
He must have either close to no armour base, or something that increases damage done (which would make more sense if you got extra damage on a spell).
Actually piling all dps on one emperor is exactly what we did all the time on Twin Emperors. We did use warrior tanks on both and just killed them with rogues/hunters/warriors nuking them while casters took care of the bugs. I also don't think the council is "easier" than Emperors in any way or form to be honest.
Council is only easier than emperors precisely because you did emperors before (and things like maulgar / karathress which are not that far from it). So well, you already know what to do : analyze what does which mob, check aggro wipes, check the best dps plan, execute and loot.
I don't mind council really, it's a fight I enjoy doing but it's just one of those t6 fights with good concepts but poor tuning. It's like if they wanted us to be oom but heh, healers are never oom since months. We could probably run the fights 20 or 25 mins without problems..
It would be much more interesting if they did something like:
- Gave the rogue CloS;
- Put BoP on the paladin instead of the priest;
- Give the priest inner fire that can't be dispelled (or something similar - give an incentive to attack the rogue rather than the priest when he's there other than just reflective shield, which is random); and
- Buffed the paladins magic aura to be even higher resistance, but shorter range.
There are allready Blessing of Spell Warding and Blessing of Protection to do this job.
But Gathios should be allowed to cast blessing on itself, or the 2 aura should be buffed (actually 20%armor/250all resist)
There are allready Blessing of Spell Warding and Blessing of Protection to do this job.
But Gathios should be allowed to cast blessing on itself, or the 2 aura should be buffed (actually 20%armor/250all resist)
...
BoP is currently cast by the priest, same with BoSW. You can currently keep all the other mobs out of range of Malande and the only people who have to deal with the shields are interrupters. (at least, if this isn't the case then it definitely behaves like it).
If you read what I said, you might actually understand what I'm getting at. The current mechanics give you no significant penalty to just DPSing the paladin and only having 2-3 people taking care of the other mobs. It's certainly not as interesting a fight as the 'penultimate boss in the game' would make you think it might be.
Double the size of the room, double the size of each council member, allow bop/divine shield to be cast on the paladin while giving it a longer cooldown and longer duration. That'd make it much more epic and fitting in my opinion.
BoP is currently cast by the priest, same with BoSW. You can currently keep all the other mobs out of range of Malande and the only people who have to deal with the shields are interrupters. (at least, if this isn't the case then it definitely behaves like it).
If you read what I said, you might actually understand what I'm getting at. The current mechanics give you no significant penalty to just DPSing the paladin and only having 2-3 people taking care of the other mobs. It's certainly not as interesting a fight as the 'penultimate boss in the game' would make you think it might be.
Very skeptical that the priest is the one casting the blessings.
50,000 yard range, I'm not sure on the other spell's name but I would imagine it also has a 50,000 yard range. They go on the other mobs fairly frequently, you probably just usually don't notice. The shields alternate every 15 seconds, and they're up nearly constantly (3-5 second downtime between blessings I would say offhand). I would bet that the paladin is the one casting them, just like the other mobs use abilities familiar to their class. If you look closely the paladin probably even does an animation when he casts the spell.
50,000 yard range, I'm not sure on the other spell's name but I would imagine it also has a 50,000 yard range. They go on the other mobs fairly frequently, you probably just usually don't notice. The shields alternate every 15 seconds, and they're up nearly constantly (3-5 second downtime between blessings I would say offhand). I would bet that the paladin is the one casting them, just like the other mobs use abilities familiar to their class. If you look closely the paladin probably even does an animation when he casts the spell.
Malande is generally the one who gets the blessings (I tank Veras next to Malande so the interrupters can DPS whichever one doesn't have the shield, while he's not vanished, and Veras very rarely gets the shields). It seems very strange that the paladin can't self-cast the shields, and seems almost an oversight in terms of the fight (as it would cause people to have to switch mobs, which you don't have to currently if you're on primary DPS duty).
And it also adds quite a bit to tank threat, which unfortunately doesn't show up on Omen.
It's rather easy to reflect as he alternates between the 2 judgements. Judgement of Blood always leaves you with plenty rage to reflect JoC.
Anyone have an idea how much threat spell reflect causes? It surely can't cause 7000 damage worth of threat can it?
I'm pretty sure spell reflect causes no inherent threat, but any *damage* done is treated as normal damage from a threat perspective.
So when you reflect SoC, you get about 6.8k damage, modified by stance for threat purposes.
It's really easy to see that spell reflected damage causes threat because it's entirely possible to ranged tank caster mobs with just spell reflect - as an example, spell reflect some caster mobs (banshees/necros) in a hyjal pull and just stand there hitting reflect every CD - the mobs won't deaggro on you to healers, or even when they start taking dps.
I'm pretty sure spell reflect causes no inherent threat, but any *damage* done is treated as normal damage from a threat perspective.
So when you reflect SoC, you get about 6.8k damage, modified by stance for threat purposes.
It's really easy to see that spell reflected damage causes threat because it's entirely possible to ranged tank caster mobs with just spell reflect - as an example, spell reflect some caster mobs (banshees/necros) in a hyjal pull and just stand there hitting reflect every CD - the mobs won't deaggro on you to healers, or even when they start taking dps.
Yeah I defeinitely notice it in Hyjal. My evidence for how much threat it causes is purely anecdotal, however. I was curious if anyone did some actual number crunching!
All I know is that spell reflect is about 12 epeen points whether it makes a difference or not. All our warriors do on trash is taunt shit off each other with spell reflect up and basically gloat about it if we're successful.
However, 1-2 reflects on hyjal mobs and they're "on" you for a long-long time.
All I know is that spell reflect is about 12 epeen points whether it makes a difference or not. All our warriors do on trash is taunt shit off each other with spell reflect up and basically gloat about it if we're successful.
However, 1-2 reflects on hyjal mobs and they're "on" you for a long-long time.
Yeah no kidding, 1-2 of those shadow bolts and its on ya till its dead dead. Thats only 8k-10k damage reflected so even if its nabbing all of your threat bonuses its pretty amazing that they stay on you like that. Especially because I'm usually at the 130% rule while the rogues aren't... Wouldn't surprise me if its counting it double or something silly, I find it hard to believe that our rogues can't outaggro 4000-5000 dmg reflected every 10 seconds while I'm at range, even with mods that can't possibly be more then 600 or 700 TPS.
Its alot of fun to get a bugged multi spell reflect on the banshee + necro waves and hold them all on you with it while getting heal spam; wave goes down so fast cause theres no aggro/CC concern aside from mind control.
Back on topic; any threat is just a bonus. Removing the chance of taking a multi instant hit is why I do it. Threat is totally not an issue on that fight anyways; his melee + judgment of blood is a ton of rage most of the time.
We're talking a real instagib here, about 30k hits that happen on random targets. We get roughly 1 per fight on average. Which means some fights 3 people can die to it, and sometimes we'll go 2-3 weeks without seeing it happen at all.
I've seen this happen to people when we're doing council as well. But like you said, it doesn't really seem to happen that often at all. When it does though it's an unavoidable death unless it's on another tank type. I'd tend to agree with your numbers as well, I'm pretty sure we had 2 die one week to it, but the next week it didn't happen once.
On the note of spell reflecting that ability, our tank reports quite often that it fails (?) and it still goes through?
I've never heard anything from our tank regarding failed spell reflects on the judgment of command. It seems to work all the time from my perspective as a healer. Maybe he's trying to spell reflect the wrong spell?
Aside from that, like many people have said it would nice if the other council members were incorporated into the fight a bit more or to make it more interesting. Oh well.
It would indeed be nice if there was more to the fight than 'Nuke the Loladin', because really the other ones are just offtanked like adds, not bosses.
I don't know about everyone else, but our hunters always focus the rogue when he's up, and our dps warriors often times switch to him too thanks to intercept. It gives at least some people slightly more to do then just nuke the paladin. Anyway, I don't find the fight to be all that boring really. Perhaps If I was the one rogue sitting on the paladin all day I might agree. Farming twin emps and Maulgar for so long is the only reason most people find the fight boring now I think. On it's own it seems enjoyable enough.
I don't think Maulgar is the reason this 10 minute repetition monster is found to be boring. You're sitting there on one mob moving once in a long while. I'd say maulgar was harder for our guild back when he could burst for 20k or so. Illdari only takes most guilds 2-3 attempts to defeat. I don't call twinging a bow at the rogue instead of the retadin "fun", or at least a way to improve your fun.
At this point it is like talking about strategy on Solarian - you're going to win 10 different ways (3 of which involve blindfolds), who cares beyond that.
It might be more interesting if BoP/BoSW could be cast on the pally/priest/mage equally and lasted a minute or so; that would force DPS to move around instead of favoring one target, and to prefer the rogue when he comes out.
Simply making the rogue take _ALOT_ of damage (200-300%) when hes visable would mean burning him when hes up would be a very viable option, no major adjustments needed.
As a healer i think Illidari Council is pretty ok. The damage is relative high to the raid and tanks and a lot of healing is needed.
Ok, with the large enrage timer you can stack healers but for me its still a relative challinging fight.
Its long and you can wipe at any point during the fight. Pretty much Twin Emps v2 and i liked those too.
10/04/07, 3:42 AM
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