I realize as I post this, that this subject may be even a bit too taboo even for these boards. It's completely impossible to discuss this on the WoW Public Boards, for obvious reasons. I'm hoping on these boards where rational thought normally shines through will be different.
First off, this is not a "Nerf Horde Racials" post.
However, as the game has evolved Alliance have lost whatever edge they used to have that separated them from Horde.
Paladins are with the Horde, with all their blessings and buffs.
Shaman are with the Alliance, with all their totems and buffs.
In 2.3 Fear Ward is being given to both factions.
The final frontier are the racials, and the question that follows, are they balanced for the game we have today?
Will of the Forsaken will continue to be a very valuable PvP ability, even more so when it's a second option and Fear Ward's cooldown is drastically increased. It's probably the best active racial there is for most classes...I know it gives me a huge amount of security on my Undead Mage. This is probably the biggest Horde advantage, though War Stomp, Berserking, Arcane Torrent and Blood Fury all have their uses.
On the other hand, Stoneform is an amazing racial in an age where poisons are a big part of PvP. Desperate Prayer saves plenty of Alliance Priest lives, and Escape Artist is far and away the best Warrior racial (hell, melee racial in general). The Draenei racials are generally excellent, and in my opinion blow away the Blood Elf alternatives.
Ultimately I don't think there is a noticeable faction imbalance in terms of racials. This is especially true when even in PvP (which we'll discuss as arenas, seeing as world PvP and Battlegrounds are lame) the factions don't inherently compete against each other. There IS a race-to-race imbalance for many classes, in that some racial packages are clearly superior to others. Try comparing Troll racials to Draenei racials...it's kind of silly. Ultimately, I don't think it's a big deal. Racial differences are little more than flavor.
A friend of mine who has rolled three different max-level priests, and raided with all of them at different times, swears up and down that the draenei priest mana-back thing is OP for raiding. For reference, her history is troll from MC through twin emps and early naxx, belf through kara and gruul, and draenei through SSC-ish (holy/disc up until mag or so on the draenei). I trust her opinion on these sorts of things because she's actually seen first-hand both factions in a raid environment post-TBC, and she's very good at theorycrafting and class mechanics.
The broad generalization that horde are better PvP, alliance better PvE, trolls and humans suck, is still true to a degree but the difference has decreased from what it once was. Oddly, one of the things that brought it most in line was the change to weapon skill mechanics: both from a class and an itemization perspective, swords and maces were both way better than axes. The overall ease of rep gains nowadays means that the time/effort/money value of diplomacy isn't as big a deal as it used to be. I would rank it as considerable, although I don't have first-hand experience.
I'm concerned about the human spirit buff and the direction blizzard is taking to make spirit more useful. IIRC, it was buffed from 5% to 10% because of the meh-ness of spirit, it may need to be re-nerfed back to its original value if WLK makes spirit as awesome a stat as bliz wants us to think they will. 2.3 alone may really upset the balance with priests and mages, WLK may bring that over to paladins as well. But, once again, spirit is currently a PvE stat almost exclusively.
The resist racials are so small as to be completely pointless by now.
Things like warstomp, escape artist, WotF, and arcane torrent vary a hell of a lot by how important that 2 or 3 minute cooldown is. Once an arena may or may not be game-winning; twice a boss fight is negligable; every time you gank or are ganked, it's a big deal.
AThings like warstomp, escape artist, WotF, and arcane torrent vary a hell of a lot by how important that 2 or 3 minute cooldown is. Once an arena may or may not be game-winning; twice a boss fight is negligable; every time you gank or are ganked, it's a big deal.
Expounding on the arena point:
It varies based upon the opposing team and bracket. In a 2v2, getting feared, trinketing, and getting refeared typically means your partner is dead, if you're facing an affliction lock/shadow priest combination. Yet those same 6-7 seconds of fear probably won't matter nearly as much in a 5v5, unless you're the sole healer for your team.
The racials also differ in power based upon class. An undead rogue is a nightmare to a priest, due to being unfearable for a full minute and having CloS to boot. An undead warrior, on the other hand, is the same fight because he'll typically be using Deathwish or Beserker rage.
Mainly they show in class versus class. An orc warlock is at a disadvantage to an undead warlock (assuming same gear and talent spec) because of Will of the Forsaken. A blood elf paladin has an extra interrupt (though it is point blank) that all other paladins do not. A dwarf rogue (until 2.3) can trinket Kidney Shots without having to save it for a Blind.
As to whether they're game-breaking? Last I checked, the rogue with the highest arena rating in every single bracket is...a night elf. So, I don't think they are truly imbalancing, but they are extremely irritating at times.
I think people fail to realize how good the things they have really are. "The grass is always greener on the other side.." thing. Its just human nature.
I can't tell you how many times I've been screwed up in an arena match by a stealthed Night Elf. Humans, especially warlocks, are really annoying for me as a rogue. My racial is all but useless in arenas. It really comes down to the situation - as a previous posted said, some racials are really good for some classes against some other classes, but nearly useless in the same situation for a different class or against a different class.
Some classes benefit a lot from their racials as Undead Rogues have already been listed. Tauren Shaman are able to earth shock, warstomp in between earthshock again for a triple interrupt. If Blood elves could be shaman they could utilize their silence to a similar effect. Warriors might be able to pull off a pummel / warstomp / pummel as well. Blood elf rogues would probably be able to kick / silence / kick, but rogues have so many other toys that it may not be as huge of a benefit (stuns, gouge, and pretty soon blind spam). Trinkets don't remove silence though, so the blood elf rogues may be less counterable.
A lot of people discount perception in BG / arena play. A friend of mine who usually played a NE warrior on another server had rolled Human warrior with the intent of better glace damage in PvE. He was trying to grind out some honor to get a few pieces of armor and he said he was suffering from lack of shadow meld. I told him that if he learned to use perception he'd find how awesome it was, especially since a lot of rogues who are in a hurry will stealth in plain sight. He was later playing on his NE again and said he was suffering from the lack of perception!
While some race/class combos are better than others, looking at the "top" players in the 3v3 in my BG group, the top 10 all had a good choice for race, except one Warrior was a human (+5 weapon skill and seeing stealth are decent), so it makes a noticeable difference.
I think a bigger issue is why, upon deciding to give fear ward to all priests, did they then alter it so fundamentally (and detrimentally, from the perspective of tanking druids and paladins)?
Especially with regards to Priest racial spells, it seems like such an odd design decision to make race, in virtually all other cases a matter of trivial difference, such a matter of importance. The differences between the five alliance races as warriors are trivial, but the difference in capabilities between a Night Elf and a Drenai/Dwarf priest?
I see that as the more pressing issue, especially as it's the easiest to quantify capabilities and evaluate differences (within the same class). It's much harder, for instance, to compare Arcane Torrent with will of the Naruu given that Drenei and Blood Elves have different class possibilities.
I don't think there's a huge alliance vs. horde imbalance; the only difference we really bring up between facing an ally or horde team when in the arena is dwarf priests, who are leagues ahead of other priests until next patch.
What I DO think it is a problem is the imbalance within a faction. Horde vs. Alliance seems fine when 9 out of 10 priests I see are dwarf, but as we all know 9 out of all 10 priests are far from being dwarf outside the arena. While the fear ward spread is welcome, all it really did was balance dwarf with undead. I can't imagine how pissed I would be if I were a human or especially NE priest and dwarves get their holy spell interrupt while they're still sucking starshards and whatever it is humans have. Same goes for trolls, who are better off than NE/hu priests but still far enough behind undead to be troublesome. I don't understand why Blizzard allows such an obvious imbalance to exist. It's alright if one racial is a bit more optimal for one class over another (see UD rogues and gnome warriors), but orcs, gnomes, dwarves, tauren, undead, draeni, and blood elves show you can pretty clearly have one set of racials that work nicely for most / all available classes.
It varies based upon the opposing team and bracket. In a 2v2, getting feared, trinketing, and getting refeared typically means your partner is dead, if you're facing an affliction lock/shadow priest combination. Yet those same 6-7 seconds of fear probably won't matter nearly as much in a 5v5, unless you're the sole healer for your team.
The racials also differ in power based upon class. An undead rogue is a nightmare to a priest, due to being unfearable for a full minute and having CloS to boot. An undead warrior, on the other hand, is the same fight because he'll typically be using Deathwish or Beserker rage.
Mainly they show in class versus class. An orc warlock is at a disadvantage to an undead warlock (assuming same gear and talent spec) because of Will of the Forsaken. A blood elf paladin has an extra interrupt (though it is point blank) that all other paladins do not. A dwarf rogue (until 2.3) can trinket Kidney Shots without having to save it for a Blind.
As to whether they're game-breaking? Last I checked, the rogue with the highest arena rating in every single bracket is...a night elf. So, I don't think they are truly imbalancing, but they are extremely irritating at times.
False, the highest rated rogue at the moment is Neilyo, as he has succeeded in maintaining a rating of 2400+ in every single bracket. He has several of his high level arena play videos out, and he is an undead.
In the PvE front, tanks have a pretty wide variety of racials:
Warriors: Everything but Blood Elf
Paladins: Human, Dwarf, Blood Elf
Druids: Night Elf or Tauren
The difference for druids seems pretty clear-cut, though I'm no expert -- Horde feral druids have more health. For paladins, the choice is between 5 weapon skill, Stoneform, and an untalented 30yd pulling ability. Those racials are balanced IMHO, with small but useful benefits for each. A warrior has a wide variety of choices, with no total winner on the Alliance side but Taurens and their +5% HP coming out on top for the Horde.
So with the lacking popularity of prot paladins, Horde tanks generally have the racial advantage. Blood elf paladins are left even farther behind than their alliance counterparts due to a larger relative HP difference. The overall difference isn't massive, but it's certainly more noticeable than the other race/class combinations' abilities. So in this respect, I don't feel that racials are well balanced.
What can be done about it? To be honest, I'd like to see more racial abilities. There are all sorts of little things like Diplomacy and Wisp form that barely affect gameplay and are nice to have around for flavor, but when it comes to the most defining aspects of a character, more should come into play than race.
I think the system would be greatly improved if racial abilities took into account not only the class, but the spec of the player. Class trainers could offer these abilities with the requirement that only one of the three could be learned. For example, dwarf tanks could have a 5% bonus to total armor; night elves could enjoy a dodge bonus while fury warriors might choose an Elunite blessing to increase chance to hit and beast mastery hunters grant a buff to their pets; etc...
Sure it would take some effort to make these racials worth having for every spec, but I think the game has matured enough for Blizzard to understand what would be useful without being overpowering. The racials in the game today strike me as a relic of the early lack of such understanding that led to lovely things like +Spirit on Might and Nightslayer.
While I think most people will agree that racials are, well if not balanced, than at least trivial enough to not swing things drastically one way or another. However, racials probably do need to be looked at a bit by blizzard. There is just some truly absurd stuff in there: Wisp form, Feedback, +throw, ect.
If you look at priest racials though; What the fuck is up with Drenai racials? Drenai priests are easily the best option for PvE, even after fear ward is changed.
also: the last thread along these lines = Maniq owned
You can't call a planet Bob!
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You were missing the () at the end of Feral Charge (Bear), this is necessary otherwise WoW thinks you're trying to cast Feral Charge Rank Bear.
What can be done about it? To be honest, I'd like to see more racial abilities. There are all sorts of little things like Diplomacy and Wisp form that barely affect gameplay and are nice to have around for flavor, but when it comes to the most defining aspects of a character, more should come into play than race.
I think the system would be greatly improved if racial abilities took into account not only the class, but the spec of the player. Class trainers could offer these abilities with the requirement that only one of the three could be learned. For example, dwarf tanks could have a 5% bonus to total armor; night elves could enjoy a dodge bonus while fury warriors might choose an Elunite blessing to increase chance to hit and beast mastery hunters grant a buff to their pets; etc...
Sure it would take some effort to make these racials worth having for every spec, but I think the game has matured enough for Blizzard to understand what would be useful without being overpowering. The racials in the game today strike me as a relic of the early lack of such understanding that led to lovely things like +Spirit on Might and Nightslayer.
I really agree on the part of giving more racial abilities. 1 or even 2 more to each race would give Blizzard few more tools to even out the most argued ones. Sure it would need a lot of work, but outcome would be that people could be satisfied with their class. How any rolled dwarf because of racial for priest? How many rolled UD because of WotF or even cannibalize? I would sell my left nut for aoe silence as Paladin.
A bit bigger variety that overlap with each other between factions would be the best route to go.
False, the highest rated rogue at the moment is Neilyo, as he has succeeded in maintaining a rating of 2400+ in every single bracket. He has several of his high level arena play videos out, and he is an undead.
Ultimately I don't think there is a noticeable faction imbalance in terms of racials. This is especially true when even in PvP (which we'll discuss as arenas, seeing as world PvP and Battlegrounds are lame) the factions don't inherently compete against each other. There IS a race-to-race imbalance for many classes, in that some racial packages are clearly superior to others. Try comparing Troll racials to Draenei racials...it's kind of silly. Ultimately, I don't think it's a big deal. Racial differences are little more than flavor.
I agree very much with this. There are enough moving parts in PvP that the difference between racials, while seemingly significant when compared directly to each other, is small in the bigger picture.
In terms of solid game design, I've always thought Blizzard should try to avoid situations where a player has a racial that is patently useless because of their class choice. An example would be the gnome intellect bonus - completely useless to a gnome warrior or rogue (imperceptible bonus to weapon skill ups notwithstanding). If they were to make it an increase to Int & Agility, then it would no longer be a useless racial to 50% of the classes available to gnomes. It would also not be overpowered because no gnomish class gears for both Int and Agi (which would basically be paladins, shamans, and hunters.) Perhaps most importantly, it simply fits with gnomish characterization.
The orc's pet damage bonus and troll bow & throwing weapon skill bonus face the same problem. It would definitely take some effort and creativity to find equitable solutions to all the potentially worthless class/racial combinations, but something tells me Blizz would be up to the task if they set their minds to it.
I agree very much with this. There are enough moving parts in PvP that the difference between racials, while seemingly significant when compared directly to each other, is small in the bigger picture.
In terms of solid game design, I've always thought Blizzard should try to avoid situations where a player has a racial that is patently useless because of their class choice. An example would be the gnome intellect bonus - completely useless to a gnome warrior or rogue (imperceptible bonus to weapon skill ups notwithstanding). If they were to make it an increase to Int & Agility, then it would no longer be a useless racial to 50% of the classes available to gnomes. It would also not be overpowered because no gnomish class gears for both Int and Agi (which would basically be paladins, shamans, and hunters.) Perhaps most importantly, it simply fits with gnomish characterization.
The orc's pet damage bonus and troll bow & throwing weapon skill bonus face the same problem. It would definitely take some effort and creativity to find equitable solutions to all the potentially worthless class/racial combinations, but something tells me Blizz would be up to the task if they set their minds to it.
I dunno, I think certain races being predisposed to appropriate classes due to their racials makes a lot of sense
not that this is how the current system works, of course, what with the best warrior pvp racial going to gnomes of all things
Sadly theres very little they can do to effectivly achieve proper balance on the races aside from how they have mostly done on shamans.
So, there are say 20 different racial abilities in total, each race gets 4, and horde/alliance have different names on them..
Passive Resist - ie Nature Resistance
Weapon Skill - ie Mace Specialization
Activated Ability - ieWill of the Forsaken
Passive Bonus - ie The Human Spirit
For example
Undead / Human
Will of the Forsaken / Resolve of the Alliance
Tauren / Dwarf
Endurance / Hardiness
Night Elf / Orc
Wisp Spirit - Ancestial Spirit
They can either have direct oposites (so humans/ud get exactly the same), or they just use the same pool and pull out different ones aslong as its 1 of each genre per race.
But no ones going to be truely 'happy' at things being equal untill it is like that, and it being direct oposites. Sadly this will mean the difference between Horde and Alliance ends up being ; Character Graphics, Towns, Zones (less so now...), Themes...
The most striking thing for me about how racials (including priest racials) have played out is how thoroughly un-Blizzard they are. Blizzard is all about no permanent defining choices. You can't gimp your char. You can't misplace a talent point like you could in Diablo and have to reroll if you want to be "perfect." Hell, if you pick the wrong faction ring you can exchange it at Exalted. If you pick the "wrong" Shatt faction, you can switch (albeit not easily).
Yet with racials, a decision made perhaps years ago, in a totally different era, with entirely different balance considerations, is unalterable and can have a huge effect on your character's abilities at the high end. When learning Kael'Thas with mixed T4/T5 gear, a tauren tank has the HP to soak the worst pyros, while a non-tauren simply may not. At the highest levels of arena competition, there's no denying that things like Escape Artist and Stoneform are huge advantages. When I 2v2 as a shaman, there are so many matches where I know as a matter of certainty that if I had War Stomp I'd win, and instead I shock one heal, then watch helplessly as the next lands on a 5% target and the opportunity is gone.
More than anything else, isn't it really odd that Blizzard has maintained this one area where you really can screw yourself on the basis of a choice you made long, long ago?
First, I do agree that racials are very different from anything else in the game, and yeah, they can make a huge difference. I originally rolled Tauren with no idea of racials, and IMO lucked out that they were the best horde warrior racials (again, in my opinion) I then rolled human for weapon skill, because at that point it was pretty good, now it's still okay, I don't mind being human, but it's strange compared to the rest of the game there's nothing I can do to change my racials short of rerolling. And god, I would love to have either tauren or gnome racials, depending on if I was pvping or raiding.
Secondly, every post here (mine included) will be biased to some extent. Just looking up I'm seeing alliance posting about how amazing horde racials are, horde posting about how good alliance ones are, a few people posting how they're balanced, and usually the people posting how they're balanced will be people who have racials they like.
I can't claim to be the best at understanding racials as they are right now. I can say without a doubt fear ward is the best priest pve racial even with low amounts of fear in the game. I can say Taurens have by far the best pve tank racial. And it really is difficult to justify some of the lack of balance between faction depending on class/spec. Why will horde always have better tanks? Why will alliance always have casters with more mana or spirit?
Personally I would love the idea of training racials (from a game balance point of view) but I guarantee people would have the same racials within a class, and all players of that class would be the same (for the same role at least) I would love to get Endurance back, or warstomp, or pick up escape artist. Yeah I like my perception but I've got other things I'd rather have.
In terms of pvp there's no denying there are clearly better racials. A shaman with warstomp is much more powerful than one without (as Gurgthock pointed out) A priest with fear ward, also amazing. I can't stand fighting undead warlock/priest combo's in 2's because I can't even fear the warlock to get a few seconds of not taking damage.
Racial balance is pretty weird right now. PVE I'd say is pretty close, horde have more HP on their tank, Alliance have fear ward, both are HUGE. As for giving FW to all priests, well I'll wait to see what other changes go in before I say if there's a raiding difference.
PVP it entirely is based on what team you're running. So again hard to say, and I think Blizzard will have a hell of a time balancing something this different in reality.
I think Praetorian makes a good point as well about being locked into your decisions regarding race.
Think of it this way.
You're new to WoW, you want to pick one of the 9 classes, ok fine, you pick one of the 9 classes, now you have to decide Horde or Alliance, then you have to choose one of the 5 Races available to each faction.
Up until the point you pick a race, your experience with said class or faction isn't going to be anymore different then the next person who picks a different class/faction(As in, every Rogue will eventually do the same quests, level in a similar way, have the same abilities, every Horde player will experience their lore, their cities, their questlines, etc).
Picking a good race is almost as important as picking a good class to go with it, because let's face facts, some class/race combos make life much easier then other class/race combos depending on how you specialize your character, your Undead PvP Rogues, Tauren Druid/Warrior Tanks, Gnome PvP Warriors, Human Combat Rogues, etc.
But when you pick up and play this game, nobody tells you how big racials are, in fact most of the time racials are downplayed, the tag line of picking a race is "Pick the one you like the most". It isn't until you understand the game, get to the end game, and are in competition with others that you realize your strengths or weaknesses, specifically due to your race. This isn't to say it's different with classes, but we shouldn't downplay the impact of racials as ONLY "Flavor".
Regarding the "good" Alliance PvP racials, on the WoR forums I saw:
Escape artist being given a 1:45 cooldown instead of the current 1:00
Stoneform is sort of nerfed because it no longer breaks blind
Dont forget the Wisp Spirit nerf *cough*.
Its ok, we still have perception to keep us through the times of hardship, and holy repentance!
The only one that really bothers me is WoTF, oh and it would be quite funny if they nerfed it because it would effect a quite a high majority of horde players :>
When I rolled my Rogue I chose Elf, for the reason "Shadowmeld grants a passive bonus to stealth, that must be good for a Rogue!", sadly that haunted me all the way through to Naxx and effected my decisions since first stepping into BWL.
Human (mage):
Diplomacy - +10% reputation I absolutely love this in TBC with all the rep grinds
Perception - obviously very good, but I've only found it useful if you know they are there in the first place.
Tauren (shaman):
Warstomp - Amazing for all the reasons everyone has already stated, I have no arena experience, but it's a great escape tool (shock, stomp, run)
+HP - Never really noticed honestly, I never got the gear for it to make a difference.
Dwarf (priest):
While it's biased, I'll be disappointed if I can't use Chastise on my spriest alt because of his talent spec.
Stoneform is amazing, theres no way around that, being unable to break blind will be hard to get used to, but it is helpful against viper/rogue poisons.
Desperate Prayer - Good, but I have very little experience as a non-shadow priest
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
I'll throw my $0.02 in for racials pertaining to hunters.
Dwarf:
Stoneform: Good vs rogues, even after blind buff.
Find Treasure: Generally useless.
+5 Skill to guns: 3% to hit on boss mobs with guns = good.
Night Elf:
Shadowmeld: Near useless in pve, handy in BGs, mostly useless in arena.
Wisp Form: WORST RACIAL EVER!!one1. This racial is the reason I'm considering rerolling draenai for WotLK, even though my nelf is pimped out.
+1% to dodge: A tiny survivability increase vs rogues and warriors. Useless otherwise.
Draenai:
Heroic Presence: +1% hit to group and pet = damned good.
Gift of the Naaru: May save one's life at times in pve and pvp, but the health granted is somewhat small.
Troll:
Berserking: Good for burst in pve and pvp.
+5 Skill to bows: 3% to hit on boss mobs with bows = damned good.
Regeneration: Trivial.
Orc:
Bloodfury: 282 AP on 2 minutes; a trinket turned into a racial. Handy everywhere, except when one is getting beat on in pvp due to the -50% healing.
Command: Makes orcs the best BM hunters, with +5% pet damage.
Hardiness: Stun resist is quite useful against rogues and warriors primarily, and a good racial for arenas.
Tauren:
Endurance: More HP is always good for pvp, and possibly even in certain pve encounters.
Warstomp: May permit sufficient time to get a rogue/warrior out of deadzone, but cast time is a bitch.
Essentially, nelfs have the shittiest racials. It boggles my mind that Wisp Form is still in the game.
09/28/07, 4:16 PM
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