With its upgrade though, [Talon of Azshara] is very nearly comparable, and a lot easier to get - possibly even better due to the hit rating.
The two weapons have the exact same average hit and Infamy trades in 20 hit rating for .13ish% crit and 26 ap. I wish I had a Talon to be honest. Where does this board get its item links? Infamy is 340 top end in game and 339 from the links in this thread.
One of the worst itemization issues post TBC for Hunters, at least, is ranged weapon selection. Whoever is sitting behind the desk designing ranged weaponry has given us all an extremely stale choice of weapon variation especially when you consider speed.
First off, it seems that all ranged bows worth using are stuck at 3.0 speed. Vashj's bow, Archimonde's bow, and Illidan's bow. Whats worse, Archimonde's bow is actually the best bow in the game, not the one that drops off Illidan. Furthermore, the difference between the two is only the equip bonuses, while there is zero difference in min-max damage and speed. The choice of gun and crossbow selection in end-game is also non-existant.
For some reason they decided that getting rid of ranged weapons of 3.4, 3.3, etc. speeds. These weapons were absolutely excellent for PVP burst damage, something that has really been crippled for Hunters since the advent of resilience and huge boost in HP pools of all classes. The normalization speed of 2.9 didn't help any, either.
The two weapons have the exact same average hit and Infamy trades in 20 hit rating for .13ish% crit and 26 ap. I wish I had a Talon to be honest. Where does this board get its item links? Infamy is 340 top end in game and 339 from the links in this thread.
With its upgrade though, [Talon of Azshara] is very nearly comparable, and a lot easier to get - possibly even better due to the hit rating.
In many runs and when i say many after learning/clearing it almost every week until we started BT/Hyjal only one talon dropped for my guild. So i dont think its easier to get then infamy because we had like 10 of those lol
but i agree talon is much more or less a little bit better due to the hit rating stats
Why is there even a distinction between main and offhand weapons outside of caster weapons and Arena offhands? Am i missing something? Would it unbalance things in any way if for example fools bane was onehand?
There's an abundance of daggers because only 1 class cannot use it, otherwise the loot tables would be even more diluted.
Well the problem is that no class wants to use them for PVE as there is no dagger-setups that can match the numbers you get with other weapons (for sustained DPS in PVE that is) because of speed or talent-build. Atleast in my guild daggers are regarded as PVP-toys and are rolled on for the most part.
One of the worst itemization issues post TBC for Hunters, at least, is ranged weapon selection.
Haha. You must be kidding. Each other class does not have a 'selection'. There is just one good end game weapon avaible. The amount of hunter ranged weapons is sickening. Vashj, Archimonde, Illidan and Supremus all drop pretty good bows. That's four different bosses dropping a weapon for ONE class, that probably is represented 1.8 times (might as well be 1.5 or so, dunno how many guilds run just 1 hunter) in an average raid.
Other classes are happy if one boss drops a weapon for them. The issue of selection does not really exist. Replacing at least two of those drops with something non-hunter related would be a big step forward.
We have four hunters in the guild plus one guy who quit a month ago. Each of them have at least three bows EACH. While some casters still run around with Karazhan/Doomwalker spelldmg or healing weapons ...
Seriously, hunter ranged weapons is the one thing that devs put plenty into the game and having a choice of decent ones is something you should be happy with.
And it seems fairly obvious that there won't be much slower weapons in the future. Other classes would prefer slower weapons for special attacks too. Chromy xbow was apparently a mistake, I doubt something as slow as that will be made again. Maybe the legendairy in Sunwell, but most likely not.
[Blade of Infamy] looks more like a hunter weapon to me (for real). Not unique, get 2 of those with a 20 agi on each and you probably got one of the best possible setups for a survival hunter. I'd personally pass on it anyway, since it's absolutely not worth replacing [Talon of Azshara] with (I think the link cache needs a flush after the updates in 2.2 btw).
There's an abundance of daggers because only 1 class cannot use it, otherwise the loot tables would be even more diluted.
Maybe, but what's the percentage of people that actually use them? For rogues & shamans they're close to useless, with combat swords & slow weapons being superior while for hunters they usually lack stats. I have no idea how it's like for warriors but I haven't seen that many run around with a dagger yet. I really hope they review the current situation for future itemization because now there are some clear itemization gaps present. We do have the Warglaives, but...
One of the worst itemization issues post TBC for Hunters, at least, is ranged weapon selection. Whoever is sitting behind the desk designing ranged weaponry has given us all an extremely stale choice of weapon variation especially when you consider speed.
First off, it seems that all ranged bows worth using are stuck at 3.0 speed. Vashj's bow, Archimonde's bow, and Illidan's bow. Whats worse, Archimonde's bow is actually the best bow in the game, not the one that drops off Illidan. Furthermore, the difference between the two is only the equip bonuses, while there is zero difference in min-max damage and speed. The choice of gun and crossbow selection in end-game is also non-existant.
For some reason they decided that getting rid of ranged weapons of 3.4, 3.3, etc. speeds. These weapons were absolutely excellent for PVP burst damage, something that has really been crippled for Hunters since the advent of resilience and huge boost in HP pools of all classes. The normalization speed of 2.9 didn't help any, either.
You write about guns and crossbows as if they are functionally different from bows. Just because there are very few crossbows and guns does not mean that the variety of hunter weapons is lacking. You listed three bows, that is two more than the available offhands rogues have from PvE at that level.
Oh man I was just about to complain about hunter weapon itemization. It looks like you guys beat me to the punch. Oh well, I'm going to complain anyway.
The amount of range weapons in BT/Hyjal is absolutely retarded. I'd really like it if Illidan or Archimonde had maybe an axe, or a mace. But no, my weapons get to be 10 ilvl's lower than the weapons every other class gets because we needed two ilvl 151 bows in the game instead. It's not even 1 bow and 1 gun, which would at least cover each of the racials. No, it's just two bows. Two bows with exactly the same damage range and speed.
We have a hunter applicant that has been with us for a grand total of like 5 days, and he now wields an ilvl 151 bow. I look forward to at least one of these bows rotting every other week from now on, deleting real loot we could have used. Bravo, itemization guy. Bravo.
Another issue I think is drops in general. Weapons have generally always been low on the overall drop list of bosses. Bosses that have an "A" Loot Table and a "B" Loot Table had the desirable stuff at 10% with most of the regular items at 20% drop. Nefarion had Ashkandi, the Spell Staff, the One Handed Axe and the Lok'amir all at 10% drop for Loot Table A & B. Thus weapons were rare.
I found it extremely strange though that Prince in KZ has such a great loot table. Considering that he ALWAYS drops a weapon. I believe he is the only boss in the game that ALWAYS drops a weapon. And being a 10 man raid boss, I dont understand why there cant be a boss like that in 25 man raiding.
Okay next beef.
AQ40 had something that no other raid in the game has had since:
Why cant we have a couple of more of these? I mean not EVERY weapon in the game has to be obtained via a weapon token, but why cant a final boss like Vashj or Kael, drop a weapon token.
Is it so bad to have some non random weapon drops in the game?
Why cant we have a couple of more of these? I mean not EVERY weapon in the game has to be obtained via a weapon token, but why cant a final boss like Vashj or Kael, drop a weapon token.
Is it so bad to have some non random weapon drops in the game?
The AQ40 Weapon Token was the best idea Blizzard ever had. In the beginning of raiding AQ40 50% of our rogues were wearing Weapons from MC.
In Season3 and all the next Seasons you will get Arena Weapons on condition that you can achieve a 1850 rating. So I really hope, that Blizzard will add Weapon Tokens in Sunwell and in all WotLK Raid Instances.
Isn't that mostly a dps situation issue? What's actually bad about a warrior tanking with say the Fang of Vashj? Shitty tank stats?
Daggers tend to be slower than the typical tank weapon, 1.7 coefficient makes it even worse, and the stats vary too. There are more tank weapons per tank than daggers per rogue too, actually.
Oh man I was just about to complain about hunter weapon itemization. It looks like you guys beat me to the punch. Oh well, I'm going to complain anyway.
The amount of range weapons in BT/Hyjal is absolutely retarded. I'd really like it if Illidan or Archimonde had maybe an axe, or a mace. But no, my weapons get to be 10 ilvl's lower than the weapons every other class gets because we needed two ilvl 151 bows in the game instead. It's not even 1 bow and 1 gun, which would at least cover each of the racials. No, it's just two bows. Two bows with exactly the same damage range and speed.
As a dwarf hunter it makes me sad that the best gun in the game for hunter's is the 87 dps one off A'lar (honourable mention to the doomwalker one and Don Santos for lower dps but more favourable speeds etc). I don't understand why there's 3 high end bows and effectively no high end guns. It must be nice to be a troll.
It was the same in the old days (quest bow, Chromaggus crossbow, KT crossbow). Having guns in the game was a concession to dwarves, but in reality, when people think "amazing magic fantasy weapon", they do not think gun, which is why Vashj and Illidan have bows, not guns. This is the same thinking that leads to raid end-bosses all having incredible 2h weapons and staffs rather than stuff like 1h caster daggers and rogue off-hand swords which are more useful but less sexy. I'd love to see Blizard's itemization design document... I suspect that they deliberately have abundances of stuff no-one needs more of (for example, how many t5 level hunter boots and bracers are there now? How many elemental shaman pants in BWL and AQ40? How much dps warrior plate is there all the damn time?) and deliberately also leave gaps, but I don't know why.
I'd start a new thread on this if my account were given permission, but hopefully this is decent enough of a thread to open this one up.
Does anyone know of a place where I can get a list of "best" loot for the most common raiding specs? The reason I ask is that I'm having a discussion with my guild regarding gear that does not have an upgrade via Hyjal and BT. One example: Best shadow priest neck - [Ritssyn's Lost Pendant].
When your guild moved on beyond content that was regularly farmed, what "best of" slots did you miss out on?
What the hell does that post have to do with Weapon Drops?
This thread has diverted to overall itemization on some occasions, stating that topic only outlines one of the major issues. Weapon drops could also apply. I would gladly move my question to a more appropriate thread if you have one that won't involve thread necromancy. I apologize if my post is grossly off-topic, but account restrictions on posting threads makes life a little difficult when trying to find a community who is serious about discussion. I wouldn't think for a moment about posting my question on the WoW forums.
Please don't turn my request into a shitstorm about bad forum practice. I'm willing to do what's required. I'm not used to not being able to open a new thread on a board. I sincerely apologize about any thread derailment. My lapse in judgement led me to believe this was a recent and fairly decent place to pose the question, but I can certainly be wrong.
Last edited by Benegesserit : 10/03/07 at 2:02 PM.
That post was obvious to me for the reason of eliminating the open thread creation. But I'm not a forum search god and could not find a narrowed topic that specifically covered the question I asked. Please PM me a place you'd find more appropriate for my question so I can edit out the posts here to keep the thread on track and ameliorate my honest mistake.
09/29/07, 3:05 PM
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