I'll say it again, and I might be eating my words in a couple weeks, but if the Hyjal attunement is removed before we kill Kael, I will be very upset. Obviously that is a selfish comment that does not take into account the "good of the game." but that will be my personal reaction.
"So just keep working on Kael and kill him before moving on to Hyjal!" I'll preempt this question by saying that it's going to be very hard to convince people to come and continue spending money/time wiping to Kael when there is basically 6 bosses waiting to be killed that we are certainly capable of taking down. If it were up to me, I'd say "eff kael" and go to Hyjal and BT. That's where the real end game is at this point. The satisfaction of defeating Kael and unlocking another tier of content would be nearly gone.
Do you not feel odd that there is all this “easy epics” waiting for you after Kael? Beyond the attunement issue, this pacing issue needs to be pointed out, again. The fact that attunement, pacing, and progression all meet at Kael can not be working as intended. I’m in one of those guilds that skipped C’thun in favor of “doing the new stuff” in Naxx. There came a time when I regretted it but once TBC was announced it was hard enough to keep the raid going just to have something to do.
If the difficulty of Vael and Vash needs to gate the mid-way point of the next tier than so be it but why does it gate content that is easier but with better gear? I honestly think something like the MC water or Nightbane urn would be healthier for the game in the long run. While I hope to get to experience Kael because the fight looks so unique and cool, I also don’t see why it needs to gate 6 easier bosses that we should be doing instead of SSC farming. (edit - for 6/6 +3/4 guilds that is. Mine is working on Al'ar and Solarian before moving to Vash for progression nights)
Cthun was harder then most of the naxx bosses too, so thats not something new.
This time you have to kill him and cant skip him, i like it that way.
There should be enough motivation to do kt.
You get the attunment done for mh/bt, get access to reward bosses and a nice ring from quest turn in.
If they removing the attunment, not many would do kt then.
Cthun was harder then most of the naxx bosses too, so thats not something new.
This time you have to kill him and cant skip him, i like it that way.
There should be enough motivation to do kt.
You get the attunment done for mh/bt, get access to reward bosses and a nice ring from quest turn in.
If they removing the attunment, not many would do kt then.
The attunement concern has been on the record since TBC Beta when several threads laid out the scenario we are discussing in this thread. Recruitment suffers having to spend 6-8 raid hours to attune recruits or poach an already short list of raiders eligible for T6.
Now Kael is a large cause of that issue but you hold to the idea that it is good? I honestly do not mind it either way but I can clearly see the issues that recruiting weeks have placed on T6 guilds. I see them coming as a headache for me one day as well and there is no pain free way around it (yet?). I don’t see why a “harder boss” should gate “easier” content either. I also don’t see why a Vash killing guild should not be able to move on to another instance (MtH?) while working on Kael for BT. I thought that was a very reasonable idea since overlapping tiers have been in the game for a long time. Would it be bad to be able to work on bosses in MtH while spending time on Kael (and dropping SSC)? Just trying to understand the mindset of those that take your point of view on the topic.
I'd argue that the old SSC/TK attunements were better than the HJ/BT attunements.
At the very least, the SSC/TK attunements sort of followed the pre-TBC model of mostly being done in a smaller group. Sure, they happened to be heroic 5 mans, but the only "impact" it had on the raid nights was knocking off Gruul/Mag for TK attunement, and Gruul/Mag is a relatively small impact on your raid when you compare it to attuning someone for Hyjal.
Contrast the old SSC/TK attunements with the Hyjal/BT ones. The impact is on the entire raid, and that impact is tremendously large in comparing to old SSC/TK attunement. I'd hazard a guess even if one-shots of absolutely every boss in TK/SSC, that is still 4-8 hours worth of raid time, likely 2-3 evenings worth. It may take 2-3 evenings to run the heroics that used to be required for SSC/TK, but those 2-3 evenings were done with 5 people, not the full 30-35 man raid force (whichever 25 you "make" go b/c they probably don't want to).
I recall Blizzard dropping SSC/TK attunements due to the hassle they required in attuning one member, however, by comparison, it would seem the Hyjal attunement is a far greater "pain" for guilds than the SSC/TK ones ever were. If Blizzard follows the same logic they did for dropping the SSC/TK attunements, I'd say the Hyjal attunement is highly likely to be dropped in the near future.
By contrast, the BT attunement (Kill Al'ar, Kill Rage) seems far more reasonable. Those bosses on farm are relatively quick, and they are at the start of their respective zones.
Last edited by Cloudgatherer : 10/09/07 at 5:37 PM.
I think dropping the attunement will happen as more and more poeple reach the "KT" limit and new content is added. Blizzard doesn't want people to stagnate and thus quit the game with new content that they can make money off of is added. They are a business, never forget that.
Someone commented how none of the situations of "attunement" would work, untrue. Having lets say 10-15 or even 20 of a guild attuned to an instance would = the guild attune is totally fine. Pug groups that want to retain a certain guild tag would be out of luck, but thats the price they pay for having a seperate guild tag from the one they raid with. If you want to see new content you should probably have some stability with a group and a raid. Having less than 10 people from one guild means that you'll have probably 3-5 guilds all in this "pug" group, and yet, how is that considered stability? I don't see how this affects the majority of the players, it would also foster reasons for people that possibly don't raid with their current guild and want to see future content to get off their arses and make a guild with the other puggers to get themselves attuned.
I also heard that attuning people would "ruin" the pacing. This too is wrong. If people get attuned by whatever means and move into BT/Hyjal, they will then meet the "wall" of content yet again around Azgalor and RoS/Mother Sharaz. Yet again, they will be on content out of their prospective league. If they couldn't kill KT/Vashj (with the majority of guilds only stuck on KT, not Vashj I might add), you probably won't be able to get past this point very quickly, BUT with the new gear you've aquired from BT/Hyjal you will probably be able to go back and work on KT, if you so choose.
To get back to the actual attunement, I wouldnt mind something in place, such as the BT quests are, that forces you to have killed at least SOME of the SSC/TK bosses instead of just skipping that content all together, because to be honest, with some key people in T5 level gear, possibly new recruits, a lot of "Kara" guilds could probably kill Naj'entus and Winterchill, farm them along with the first SSC/TK bosses and never really pick up ANY T5 gear. Allowing quest chains to be implemented would increase SSC/TK's need, and most any recruit to a Hyjal/BT guild would have these done, assuming of course he isn't getting recruited to DnT with kara level epics.
All that said, I doubt Blizz will do anything until 2.4, at which point I'd almost assume the Hyjal attunement to be lifted. The BT should not and probably won't be lifted for sometime since, like others have said, it's an easy quest chain and requires very minimal raid boss kills.
My guild is working on Tidewalker in SSC right now. If they made it so that we could go straigh to Hyjal or BT, we'd skip so much more than gear. There's the experience and practice that running those earlier bosses would give us. So many people don't realize that they can't half-ass this stuff if they want to progress.
If my guild can't kill Tidewalker, why should we deserve loot from Winterchill (who I hear is stupid easy)? I dunno, I'd like to accomplish the attunement the hard way. I am still trying to get a Heroic SV group so I can finish my heroics, then do Mag and /finally/ be attuned for TK. I was attuned for SSC like the day before they took the attunement out lol.
Champion of the Naaru Ikarii has a nice ring to it, too.
My guild is working on Tidewalker in SSC right now. If they made it so that we could go straigh to Hyjal or BT, we'd skip so much more than gear. There's the experience and practice that running those earlier bosses would give us. So many people don't realize that they can't half-ass this stuff if they want to progress.
If my guild can't kill Tidewalker, why should we deserve loot from Winterchill (who I hear is stupid easy)? I dunno, I'd like to accomplish the attunement the hard way. I am still trying to get a Heroic SV group so I can finish my heroics, then do Mag and /finally/ be attuned for TK. I was attuned for SSC like the day before they took the attunement out lol.
Champion of the Naaru Ikarii has a nice ring to it, too.
I also believe Blizzard will lift the Hyjal attunements alittle before or at 2.4. But if they do lift the Hyjal attunement requirment, then they should reward those who actually complete the attunement. One option would be that only those who completed the Hyjal attunement quest get access to the Scale of the Sands rep ring and should not receive any rep from Hyjal until they complete the attunement quest.
I was disappointed when Blizzard announced the reward for completing the TK Attuement quest. I was hoping for a continuation of the quest line, which would take you to other raid instances (like the AQ40 quest line), with challenging objectives, offering unique rewards along the way. But instead we get yet another "title" that most people don't even display.
Having lets say 10-15 or even 20 of a guild attuned to an instance would = the guild attune is totally fine. Pug groups that want to retain a certain guild tag would be out of luck, but thats the price they pay for having a seperate guild tag from the one they raid with. If you want to see new content you should probably have some stability with a group and a raid. Having less than 10 people from one guild means that you'll have probably 3-5 guilds all in this "pug" group, and yet, how is that considered stability? I don't see how this affects the majority of the players, it would also foster reasons for people that possibly don't raid with their current guild and want to see future content to get off their arses and make a guild with the other puggers to get themselves attuned.
This betrays a pretty profound ignorance of how non-guild raid groups work, particularly on RP servers.
Originally Posted by ANSeranov
I am still trying to get a Heroic SV group so I can finish my heroics, then do Mag and /finally/ be attuned for TK. I was attuned for SSC like the day before they took the attunement out lol.
Champion of the Naaru Ikarii has a nice ring to it, too.
Selfishly I wish they'd take magtheridon out, now that it's not part of the raid attunements and just a vanity title - I had ToTN:Magtheridon in my quest log the day they took out the attunements, and it's still there, it's pretty much the end of 5 man questing.
In fact, they're the same instances you run on normal for Karazhan attunement, would have been neat to replace magtheridon with the old heroic Black Morass.
My guild is working on Tidewalker in SSC right now. If they made it so that we could go straigh to Hyjal or BT, we'd skip so much more than gear. There's the experience and practice that running those earlier bosses would give us. So many people don't realize that they can't half-ass this stuff if they want to progress.
If my guild can't kill Tidewalker, why should we deserve loot from Winterchill (who I hear is stupid easy)? I dunno, I'd like to accomplish the attunement the hard way. I am still trying to get a Heroic SV group so I can finish my heroics, then do Mag and /finally/ be attuned for TK. I was attuned for SSC like the day before they took the attunement out lol.
Champion of the Naaru Ikarii has a nice ring to it, too.
One thing I think gets overlooked a bit is the notion that the first 5 bosses in hyjal/bt are easy loot. One thing you have to keep in mind is that all the guilds that have killed these bosses so far also killed kael'thas. These bosses pale in comparison to the difficulty level of Kael'thas so in that regard they are easy. Would 6/6 3/4 guilds be able to kill these first 5 hyjal/bt bosses? Most likely. Would lurker/vr guilds be able to do the same? I seriously doubt it.
One thing I think gets overlooked a bit is the notion that the first 5 bosses in hyjal/bt are easy loot. One thing you have to keep in mind is that all the guilds that have killed these bosses so far also killed kael'thas. These bosses pale in comparison to the difficulty level of Kael'thas so in that regard they are easy. Would 6/6 3/4 guilds be able to kill these first 5 hyjal/bt bosses? Most likely. Would lurker/vr guilds be able to do the same? I seriously doubt it.
There is a huge gap between 6/6 3/4 and a lurker+vr guild. I'm pretty sure most guilds with the coordination to do hydross would be able to do the first 3 bt bosses.
Cthun was harder then most of the naxx bosses too, so thats not something new.
This time you have to kill him and cant skip him, i like it that way.
There should be enough motivation to do kt.
You get the attunment done for mh/bt, get access to reward bosses and a nice ring from quest turn in.
If they removing the attunment, not many would do kt then.
Hence the reason it's poorly designed/paced. People should want to do final bosses in an instance for the challenge. I think many raiders, all things being equal, would strive to down a final boss for that reason. However, when they release Tier 6 content before anyone has even downed Kael and only a handful have gotten Vashj then they trivialize the sense of accomplishment people get from killing those bosses.
Do you not feel odd that there is all this “easy epics” waiting for you after Kael? Beyond the attunement issue, this pacing issue needs to be pointed out, again. The fact that attunement, pacing, and progression all meet at Kael can not be working as intended. I’m in one of those guilds that skipped C’thun in favor of “doing the new stuff” in Naxx. There came a time when I regretted it but once TBC was announced it was hard enough to keep the raid going just to have something
That's because Gateway mobs guard easier loot mobs. This isn't something new with Kael, it's something that goes all the way back to EQ, with the Temple of Veeshan and then Rallos Zek in the PLane of Tactics. Beat Rallos Zek, and suddenly you have access to far superior gear (Elemental Armour) on mobs that were farmable the first time you pulled them.
That's the *definition* of a gateway mob - it's not a gateway if the thing behind it is just as hard. We've had this in WoW as well : Magmadar in MC, Vael in BWL.
There's nothing wrong with the first few bosses in Tier 6 being easier than Kael and dropping better loot. The only thing wrong was the pacing of it all - they just got that completely wrong. A lot of people said when Tier 6 was released that it was too soon, and I think in retrospect they were right. It was too soon, Executus.
One thing I think gets overlooked a bit is the notion that the first 5 bosses in hyjal/bt are easy loot. One thing you have to keep in mind is that all the guilds that have killed these bosses so far also killed kael'thas. These bosses pale in comparison to the difficulty level of Kael'thas so in that regard they are easy. Would 6/6 3/4 guilds be able to kill these first 5 hyjal/bt bosses? Most likely. Would lurker/vr guilds be able to do the same? I seriously doubt it.
Hard to answer in a way because nobody can actually try it. But these bosses are really easy. The experience I have is that Winterchill went down after 3-4 attempts (can't remember exactly), then we one-shot it the 2nd week. Naj'entus gave us a couple of problems the first time, yesterday we got him in 4 attempts (including a 1% wipe on 2nd try), then moved to Supremus who was down on 3rd attempt. And up to Supremus there's only one trash pull which is hard (the 2 generals before Naj'entus), the rest of the trash is very easy, even compared to SSC/TK trash. All this points to the fact that these bosses are really quite easy. A "Vashj-level" of coordination helps on Naj'entus, and I don't see why a guild that can down Lurker or VR couldn't kill Supremus. Al'ar, Solarian, Karathress or Leotheras all felt much harder than Supremus.
Do not forget that both Hyjal and BT share trash loot. This trash loot is pretty nice quality so even lurker guilds could go to BT or Hyjal and farm just trash drops if attunement was removed.
I really just do not see it being a good idea to open all content up immediately. Guilds who have not yet attuned themselves to MH still have Kara, Gruul, Mag, SSC and TK to farm. Thats a lot of instances. Why would suddenly opening two more instances alleviate problems?
And yes guilds do collapse on tough raid mobs, but then why would they also not just fall apart at Archimonde? Or RoS? I don't consider this a valid argument for removing all attunements, if your guild is going to fall apart it will, the name of the mob doesn't matter!
And as stated above, yes Vashj and Kael are gateway mobs. If the next mobs were tougher, where would the incentive be to conquer those encounters? So you can move on to a fresh boss that will take 2 weeks longer? THAT would be a guild killer! The whole point of the easy bosses after Kael being "easy" is not so that when attunements are removed, people can charge in and farm T6 content, it is so that after spending all that time, gold and effort into defeating 2 challenging encounters you get a break, new mobs to farm for gear upgrades and a bit of time off until you hit the next time consuming challenge.
If it was Kael type fight after Kael type fight, people would burn out VERY rapidly.
I understand many people feel that they are missing out, but I would not have swapped the cheering over vent when Kael was down for any amount of T6 epics! However when the Shade of Akama died to us last week there was nothing but a "lol" on vent. It is risk vs reward, sometimes the risks come a few weeks before the reward is all. Just jumping over content to farm easy mobs is highly unrewarding and DOES to some degree trivialise the tougher encounters which were previously designed for a different gear level.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
I keep wondering.. Apart from bragging rights, would it really be such a bad thing to just kill the attunement?
- For the T6 raid groups, the main problem is finding new people to replace those who quit. Clearly, not having T5 end bosses as a requirement would benefit these.
- You also get to read about guild so and so that fell apart on Kael (or Vashj, or..) every so often. Clearly, Kael'Thas wasn't such a great encounter to do for them either.
- If Kael'Thas and Vashj were such wonderful things, we wouldn't have these threads popping up, no?
In the end, does the game in itself actually have to supervise some sort of "Do A before doing B" at all? Everyone claims to love multiple choice instances, and you hear very few demanding that you HAVE to do Hydross before you do the Lurker etc, and likely no-one even thinks it would spoil the experience of the Hydross fight because you can skip him.
Sure, a lot of the T6 fights are.. easy.. 1-2 nights on a new boss and you have a kill. Seen that happening on everything up to Illidan now. The direct effect of lifting the T5 attunement requirement was an explosion in VR and Lurker kills, but even more importantly, it got a lot more raid groups -started- in T5. But, really, is it for you and me to determine if the Gruul killing group that were able to add two T5 bosses to their kill list are doing something wrong?
If that means Kael gets skipped.. So be it, I think that would be better than having groups fall apart over him. And those who want to do what is perhaps the hardest fight in the game atm, can -choose- to fight him anyway. Just because Illidan is the "last" boss of TBCin a thematic way doesn't really mean he has to be killed last.. The entrance into BT is a crack in the wall leading into a sewer, hardly something you would need to kill a king to enter :P
The -only- reason I can see for this clinging to "we should have attunements" is purely for ego reasons. As in, "others don't deserve to get into T6, unless they did what I/we did". Well, if you want to maintain that edge over the others, then stop complaining about the price there is to pay for it, and take those raid days out to attune people. It's the price of that fame you have. This whole debate is about wanting to make your life easier, while keeping it hard for those "below" you. I find it vaguely distasteful.
The -only- reason I can see for this clinging to "we should have attunements" is purely for ego reasons. As in, "others don't deserve to get into T6, unless they did what I/we did". Well, if you want to maintain that edge over the others, then stop complaining about the price there is to pay for it, and take those raid days out to attune people. It's the price of that fame you have. This whole debate is about wanting to make your life easier, while keeping it hard for those "below" you. I find it vaguely distasteful.
It will make the life easier for the other people too, once they are in bt/hyjal.
See kt as a milestone, as a big achievement.
Kill him and be proud of it that you can now enter t6 content.
There should be an incentive to kill Kael'Thas. However, incentives are not the opposite of restrictions.
The rewards for kill Kael'Thas should be a little bigger than just his loot - but I don't think the penalty for NOT killing him should be as severe as barring entry to the 2 highest raid zones [currently in-game].
That's because Gateway mobs guard easier loot mobs. This isn't something new with Kael, it's something that goes all the way back to EQ, with the Temple of Veeshan and then Rallos Zek in the PLane of Tactics. Beat Rallos Zek, and suddenly you have access to far superior gear (Elemental Armour) on mobs that were farmable the first time you pulled them.
That's the *definition* of a gateway mob - it's not a gateway if the thing behind it is just as hard. We've had this in WoW as well : Magmadar in MC, Vael in BWL.
There's nothing wrong with the first few bosses in Tier 6 being easier than Kael and dropping better loot. The only thing wrong was the pacing of it all - they just got that completely wrong. A lot of people said when Tier 6 was released that it was too soon, and I think in retrospect they were right. It was too soon, Executus.
I agree that the pacing of T6 release was off by about 2-3 months.
I would also like to say that the dropping of the T5 attunements didn't suddenly increase the number of Leo kills. It did however open up 2 easy bosses for T4 guilds to immediately move on and started the debate in their /g "Let's drop Kara group 2 and 3 and only run Kara 1 since we are all geared." I see that as a positive.
Changing the T6 attunement is the only way for T6 guilds to back fill their ranks without investing 6-8 raid hours on recruits (150-200 man hours). That is honestly the largest attunement requirement this game has had to date. Maybe the buffs in 2.3 and T5 gear from ZA will push 6/6 3/4 guilds over the hump and open up the poaching for the T6 guilds but that situation makes me feel like we have loggers calling for more forests to cut down.
Finally, I have no issues with gateway mobs but Kael gates far more content that any boss to date. I'm would have no issues if Kael killing guilds moved on and along with new Reps rewards got 2-3 easier bosses to kill but we are talking about 6+ bosses killed by most new T6 guilds in the first 2 weeks. Is the T6 content just too easy? It certainly looks that way.
This betrays a pretty profound ignorance of how non-guild raid groups work, particularly on RP servers.
Does it really? Look at the servers with progression, true progression and the majority are not RP servers. Moreover, if they were true RP'ers, wouldn't they want to go as an allegiance of people, together for the cause of downing Vashj, KT, Archimond and Illidan? Not as some conglomerate of broken guilds, hoping that by working together they can down them?
Originally Posted by Kink
Do not forget that both Hyjal and BT share trash loot. This trash loot is pretty nice quality so even lurker guilds could go to BT or Hyjal and farm just trash drops if attunement was removed.
As I understood it, with the inclusion of "trash" loot into Hyjal, you still have to kill the first boss to then start seeing trash loot. Killing the waves up to Winterchill will give you nothing, almost a premptive barrier against the wave of lower-level guilds. As such, how much trash leads up to Naj'entus? I've not been into BT, but I think I heard that the trash is fairly difficult to a guild that hasn't cleared past VR/Lurker, correct?
I do agree that T6 content was probably released early, by the general populace's standards, most of us hadn't even seen the majority of SSC/TK before T6 was already out there and being beaten by the few top end guilds.
My guild is currently stuck on KT phase 4, we can't get the transition clean without having trouble. It's VERY disconcerting to have to watch as we fail and fail and fail. I would love to be able to beat KT on my own merit, but the fact remains, at least for a rogue, he only drops 1-2 good items. Even then, if you kill the first several bosses from BT/Hyjal, you've already replaced those items probably, even moments after you first got them. What does this do for the average player? It turns KT/Vashj into "get attuned and gtfo of here" fights. People don't sit there and farm KT/Vashj for that one loot they really need. KT at least requires too much work to go back for that one peice that maybe someone needs, espeically when you can get equivalent loot for less work from the early bosses of BT/Hyjal.
Also, who saw the removal of TK/SSC attunements as a bad thing? You got in for VR/Lurker and got some kills and loots, possibly more if you were skilled but just werent attuned, but for the most part, you could easily tell who had the skill and who didnt. A whole guild might have T5 shoulders and a few signature items, but they didn't get loot that would break the bank or great immense disparity, did they? How would this removal not be the same thing? You'd still see guilds struggling on these "easy" bosses in BT/Hyjal, with only certain loots, and never fully experiencing the instance and reaching the true end-game content.
As I understood it, with the inclusion of "trash" loot into Hyjal, you still have to kill the first boss to then start seeing trash loot. Killing the waves up to Winterchill will give you nothing, almost a premptive barrier against the wave of lower-level guilds. As such, how much trash leads up to Naj'entus? I've not been into BT, but I think I heard that the trash is fairly difficult to a guild that hasn't cleared past VR/Lurker, correct?
Actually, as long as you clear the first wave, you'll usually be able to get loot from later ones. (It's based on your performance against the waves.)
My guild is currently stuck on KT phase 4, we can't get the transition clean without having trouble. It's VERY disconcerting to have to watch as we fail and fail and fail. I would love to be able to beat KT on my own merit, but the fact remains, at least for a rogue, he only drops 1-2 good items. Even then, if you kill the first several bosses from BT/Hyjal, you've already replaced those items probably, even moments after you first got them. What does this do for the average player? It turns KT/Vashj into "get attuned and gtfo of here" fights. People don't sit there and farm KT/Vashj for that one loot they really need. KT at least requires too much work to go back for that one peice that maybe someone needs, espeically when you can get equivalent loot for less work from the early bosses of BT/Hyjal.
Kael'thas and Vashj dropping better loot than early Hyjal bosses would definitely help in this regard.
How would this removal not be the same thing? You'd still see guilds struggling on these "easy" bosses in BT/Hyjal, with only certain loots, and never fully experiencing the instance and reaching the true end-game content.
It would create ludicrous pressure on those guilds to skip T5 content, especially since the disparity between T5 and T6 gear tends to be much higher than that between T4 and T5.
Besides, I'm actually looking forward to killing Vashj and Kael'thas. Removing the attunements, due to the content release pacing, the difficulty tuning, and the loot quality, would be akin to removing these bosses from the game for those who haven't killed them. Removing attunement from TK might have made Mag/Gruul skippable in theory, but most learned them anyway because they aren't that hard and they do provide decent loot. You also didn't need to clear an entire 2-3 hour instance (TK) or 4-6 hour instance (SSC) to attempt them. Removing attunement from BT/Hyjal would mean that you might come back and do Kael'thas/Vashj after you killed Illidan, because it would be too significant a waste of raid time until then.
Does it really? Look at the servers with progression, true progression and the majority are not RP servers. Moreover, if they were true RP'ers, wouldn't they want to go as an allegiance of people, together for the cause of downing Vashj, KT, Archimond and Illidan? Not as some conglomerate of broken guilds, hoping that by working together they can down them?
Regardless of whether or not any of this is true, guild attunement is just a bad idea. You can have up to 500 characters in a guild, most guilds are probably at half capacity if not less and could easily free up more slots if they needed. What is preventing me from inviting 40 people from a 6/6SSC 3/4TK guild over to my BT/MH guild for a free attunement to come wipe out the first few bosses of BT/MH?
It will make the life easier for the other people too, once they are in bt/hyjal.
See kt as a milestone, as a big achievement.
Kill him and be proud of it that you can now enter t6 content.
Thanks, we did. I'm posting being in a position where T6 attunements is a semi-regularily occuring annoyance. That doesn't change the fact I find the whole "make it easier for US, but not THEM" quite hypocritical
Does it really? Look at the servers with progression, true progression and the majority are not RP servers. Moreover, if they were true RP'ers, wouldn't they want to go as an allegiance of people, together for the cause of downing Vashj, KT, Archimond and Illidan? Not as some conglomerate of broken guilds, hoping that by working together they can down them?
1) There are relatively few RP servers, so why would you expect the majority of progressed raiding servers to be RP?
2) You haven't established a causal link between non-guild raid groups and lack of progression, the point of mentioning RP servers was to show a possible common cause.
3) Even if non-guild raiding groups were on average less progressed than guild raiding groups, they shouldn't be penalized for it.
4) Referring to them constantly as broken/pug/unstable isn't an argument.
1) There are relatively few RP servers, so why would you expect the majority of progressed raiding servers to be RP?
2) You haven't established a causal link between non-guild raid groups and lack of progression, the point of mentioning RP servers was to show a possible common cause.
3) Even if non-guild raiding groups were on average less progressed than guild raiding groups, they shouldn't be penalized for it.
4) Referring to them constantly as broken/pug/unstable isn't an argument.
1) I dont expect it, its' a fact, why should the majority of WoW be penalized for a "relatively few RP servers".
2) I dont have to, to be honest. I'm not trying to make an argument about RP servers specifically, or even their ability. I'm pointing out, that if you look at each guilds progression, based by server, you would find that the majority of servers with pug/non-guilded groups running instances (an RP server member, himself, said this was common on most) are not as progressed, on average as other servers. And the mention of "RP servers" was what another poster said, that most RP servers have a higher percentage of "non-guild groups".
3) They aren't really being penalized. A specific aspect of their raiding groups, which I would imagine is kind of low actually, will be penalized. Not being able to bring 10 people to a raid will become more of an issue, not "oh, we have 2-3 different guilds running together".
4) LoL, It actually, by definition of itself, is an argument. Argumentum Ad Hominem would mean, its a type of argument, although, not the type I was trying to convey truthfully.
As much as people don't want to believe it, WoW is not a democracy. Blizzard doesn't do things with everyone in mind, everytime. Opening up the Attunements at a later date would improve their overall products saturation. That's why they lifted the attunements when BT came out, they wanted more people getting to a point where they would possibly be able to move into their new content, aka, keep their product fresh in the minds of their customers.
Also, someone said that making guilds attuned would be bad, except that you would lose that attunement once you left the guild, so in essence, you couldn't join a guild, become attuned by buying a spot in their guild, and then leave the guild, still attuned, start a new guild, and by proxy, make that new guild attuned. It wouldn't happen, and if people still sold spots in their guild to "become attuned" for instance, you'd never be able to get around that, lifting attunement or not, they would still sell their spot.
Another thing,
It would create ludicrous pressure on those guilds to skip T5 content, especially since the disparity between T5 and T6 gear tends to be much higher than that between T4 and T5.
is not true. Just like the guilds that came into SSC/TK unprepared, wiped and went back to Gruul/Mag/Kara with a little better gear, more easily downed those bosses and continued to become better. How is any "pressure" put on them to suddenly be better than they were before? They will or won't down bosses, get some gear and never go past their own skill, what's new?
10/09/07, 3:14 PM
