I've seen EQ mentioned a few times in this thread and I have to say the one fundamental thing that WoW lacks in raids that EQ had as far as raids in rolls was a debuff role. Originally Warlocks were said to be the "debuff class." When I say debuff I don't mean a single curse or something I'm talking about the role of a Shamen and Enchanters in EQ. Tash, Mala, Slow etc... Somehow between Beta and now the line between debuffer and high DPS got obliterated and this game is too far along to change a current class to this role, its going to have to come from one of the Hero classes.

Problem is balancing such role in small scale PvE, raids, solo and PvP. Additionally, you got to make debuffing fun. I mean, think about that - after the fight, people are checking their DPS meters. What can our debuffing warlock boast about? "Hey, I was channeling Slow for 80% of the fight and used Weakness twice when boss were about to use his special, yay!" Then after 10 raids warlock is spent and rerolls. It would be something along the lines of healing, but significantly less challenging.

Additionally, gear-focus of the game would make debuffing class unable to progress. You reach lev. 70, you get your max. lev. spells... then what? Gear only makes your DPS, healing OR mitigation better - but there is no gear that makes you buffs or debuffs more powerfull. Basically, fresh lev. 70 pally got just as powerful buffs as pally-the-Illidan-killer. It would be the same with debuffer class.

For debuffer and buffer classes work game would require completly different reward and character development system, that actually rewards acts of buffing and debuffing alone, also making them much more engaging then right now. People like to click buttons, preferably different buttons in different combinations that depend on situation around.

Debuffs in EQ were only relevant in one expansion, and that was velious, that featured mobs with magic resistence so high that landing the debuff was absolutely crucial. It also made mobs absolutely retarded, since debuffs were so powerful that you needed them on the entire time, and bosses were balanced assuming they had the best debuff on the entire time (Tugur's reduced a mob's dps by 75% before slow mitigation).

Yeah I agree, its boring to me thats why I never played one of those classes in EQ but there are people out there that enjoy that type of play style and WoW doesn't offer it. Only reason I stuck with a Warlock was because of how the class played in Beta.

As for progress as a character, those classes were sort of hybrids and could do other things, Shamen could heal, cure and Enchanters were CC and DPS(lol). If you can remember there wasn't anything in EQ that improved those classes debuffs. If you think character progression is through gear entirely then class sets could have set bonuses that increase their potency.

I'm not advocating for this type of class to beput in I'm just saying had blizzard chosen a debuffer path I am sure they could of come up with something and I am sure people would play it and stick with it and it would help alleviate the pressure that 19 DPS talent trees has on raids today.

To go slightly off topic, Mearis bosses like Tunat still quaded for 8k after full debuffs so they were relevant after velious.

It's a bit more complicated.

Debuffs and buffs would have to be designed completly differently then they are now (or that they were in EQ) to become valid class/build role. By valid I mean engaging on its own and giving player a feeling that he is getting better (progress) in that over time. EQ debuffs were basically tranquil shots. It's bad design to build class around tranq shot.

Let's take a tank role for example - main areas of interest for a tank is mitigation (of various types) and threat building, coupled with "oh shit" reactions. All those tasks are highly engaging (through innate abilities and consumables/on use items) and scale with gear obtained as character progresses. Same can be said about healing - main tasks are keeping ability to sustain healing, while maximizing healing output and being able to react in "oh shit" situations. Ability to do that also changes as character progresses. For DPS classes it's similarly 3 main aspects - maximizing damage while keeping aggro at bay and ability to do some burst in "oh shit" moments.

Debuffer/buffer class would have to use similar system to become interesting. Something that would allow to say "hey, guy X is great debuffer and Y not so much".

I think part of the "problem" lies in the class design requirements that Blizzard has taken upon themselves to fulfill.

Blizzard wants every class to be able to solo. That alone makes the 10 classes competing for DPS slots and (relatively) DPS gear.

On the other hand, a mob can only attack one target at a time. This effectively caps the number of tanks at one per mob, or possibly two if you add a gimmick like Hateful Strike.

As a direct extension of the tank design comes the theoretical maximum amount of damage that can be healed through before the tank gets oneshot or before it's humanly possible for a healer to react, which also serves as a cap on the number of healers.

So 2-3 tanks, 6-8 healers and 15-17 DPS. I think it's pretty obvious that one side of the so-called Holy Trinity is heavier than the order by an order of magnitude.

I'm not saying its viable at this stage of the game, was just saying that had the game originally been designed with a debuff type class in the more EQ style of things(Primary Debuff, shitty at everything else) it would add more variety and interesting and unique aspects to the game as the OP was originally posting about. Outside of Tank/Healer/DPS what other rolls could they add that the classes currently in the game can't already do? The only answer I can come up with right now(6AM) is a true debuffer.

That kind of "being useful to the raid" mentality isn't exactly shared by everyone.

You're bound to have several kinds of personalities within your raid group: People who just want to socialize, people who want to get those phat purps, people who are genuinely helpful and want to offer their utility to 24 others, etc.

I would love so much to raid as Ret and give out some yummy buffs AND debuffs at the same time, but if you can't find a GM who can see past a Lock's big ol' numbers, you're not getting to Attumen.

It's not about e-peen, it's about change and progress...

Ok, let me go even further in this. Let's agree that debuffer/buffer classes are basically the same, right? They both are focused on adjusting balance between initial parameters of sides involved in encounter - debuffers by reducing parameters and buffers by rising them. So far so good.

Now, let's check two best "buffer" classes in WoW - paladin and shaman. Paladin got powerful buffs that are cast before the fight, effectively making them passive effect present for whole fight. As result, paladin, despite having powerful buffs is not buffer - he is either healer, tank or DPS, because buffing alone is not engaging enough. In case of shaman, it's a bit different - choice of buffs is bigger and they have to be reapplied during the fight, so they are not completly passive effect (as paladin buffs are). But mayority of the fights is designed in a way that actually promotes as passive use of buffs as possible - keeping optimal set of totems whole fight, without switching between them. It's rarely the case that shaman is using GoA for 1st miunte of the fight, switches to grounding at some point to counter some effect, then ends with WoA. As result, shaman is either DPS or a healer, not buffer.

The closest thing to true buffer/debuffer role is refreshing judgements for ret pally, AP buff for enhancement shammies and shadow priest mana battery. But they are still very strongly tied to damage dealing. They are not goal, they are added bonus.

To make paladin/shaman true buffer classes, all blessings would have to follow pattern of BoP/BoF/BoSac while all shaman totems would have to be like searing, grounding or stoneclaw ones. Basically, all buffs would have to be short timed effects - and very varied, to avoid buffers just spamming one ability on and on. Additionally, most of the fights would require various boss abilities that would need be countered at the right time by right buff.

And there is always problem of progress. I simply can't agree with your e-peen comment. Except from people playing completly socially, you always need some way to improve your character. If your primary task is buffing/debuffing, you need a way to progress in that, instead of progressing as a healer or damage dealer. If such progress is not possible, at some point class becomes healer/DPS, or debuff becomes completly artificial gimmick, used by designers to keep class alive (tranq shot-like abilities).

Of course, there are always people that are going to play such poorly designed class. But, like someone mentioned before Blizzard attempts to make all classes equally attractive for players. Creating buffer/debuffer class that can't improve its buffing/debuffing potential over time (always -X% attack speed for example, no matter if it's MC or Naxx), is not engaging for player (cast 1 spell every 1 min.) and doesn't allow player to shine (every warlock got the same - X% attack speed debuff, no matter if it's veteran or noob) is a good recipe for unpopular class. Of course you can argue that not every class have to be similarly popular, but obviously Blizzard thinks otherwise.

Trying to Frankenstein together some buffer/debuffer class out of bits and pieces of EQ garbage for the purpose of solving a "problem" WoW has with more dps classes than healing or tanking isn't going to go anywhere fast. It'll just end up with

"Yeah and it will shoot lasers from his eyes"

"Yeah! no, no, no, lasers from one eye and robot dinosaurs from the other"

"And they DW internet memes"

Thats just how I see it going down though.

One thing that is lacking to (nearly) all classes is the lack of diversity in the trees. For most classes every tree has but one path to take, with (near) useless filler talents to make it appear more interesting.

This pigeon-holes every talent tree into a single spec, regardless of what it's used for. If they continue to make the talent trees deeper (as opposed to wider) it will only aggravate the issue.

Rather than trying to provide raid-viability with single-line talent trees, they should be wide and diverse enough in itself to support multiple playstyles, with each playstyle having a distinct line of talents in the tree.

e.g. the hunter survival tree has both PvP and PvE talents, but to reach any of them you have to take talents for both activities, which 'wastes' talent points.