JamesVZ

I've posted about this topic on the FoH forums, and someone copied it to the WoW general forums (links to follow), but I still feel there's a perspective and awareness being missed in the discussions so far.

The premise, I feel, is best summed up by Kreugen over at Fires of Heaven,

I don't see how there's any way to counter this line of thought. Arguing that it is easier to level up on a PvE server is null and void when the bulk of the game is loaded at the end of it. Likewise, the argument itself is suspect due the streamlined PvP process. I hope we can all agree it's much improved from the original days. But it is a system that has evolved over the course of 3 years to what it is now, and the mantra in place for preventing PvE to PvP transfers is outdated.

We haven't heard anything back from The Big Blue on why they continue to deny the option, only that they are not considering it. As a player, this is fairly frustrating. As a player stuck on a PvE server when I have levelled up many times on PvP servers, this is maddening. Given the reaction and general buzz surrounding the issue, I really don't think I'm alone here.

Can anyone here honestly see anything bad coming from the change to open PvE to PvP transfers? What do you think the impact on recruiting for your own guild would be -- would your own guild consider transferring to PvP if it is on a PvE server?

Relevant links,
WoW Forums -> PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.
[WoW] PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue. - Fires of Heaven Guild Message Board

 

◊ Vontre

Personally aggravated that as a pvp leveled character, there are guilds on pve realms I would consider joining to raid with, but if that doesn't work out I'm stuck in the "pve deathtrap" forever. Frankly bullshit, I mean I know this is EJ but, there's not much more I can say about it than that. =\

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

• Fogbug

Having levelled and played entirely on a PvP server, I can safely say that the "pvp server leveling is significantly harder" argument is bunk. On a server like Siege Perilous or Darktide or Mordred, yeah, levelling difficulty goes up a couple notches. WoW doesn't have true "hardcore" servers, and there's no good reason not to allow PvE -> PvP transfers other than some whining from stupid people on WoW general, which is going to happen anyway.

 

Kadaan

Given the choice, I would choose PvE 100% of the time. I do not find random killing of the opposing faction fun at all, and getting randomly killed even less so. That said, I have friends on PvP servers and characters on PvE servers collecting dust. I've leveled to 60 on PvP, and don't think the average time to level is that far off from a PvE server.

IMO Blizzard should remove the PvE -> PvP restriction and collect their $25 per transfer. I really don't see very many people spending the time grinding from 1-70 on a PvE server just to transfer over to a PvP server. If this is a concern, just implement a playtime requirement similar to the gold limit. Level 70 characters cannot be transferred PvE -> PvP with less than 20d playtime, etc.

I find it kinda ironic that this comes from FoH, who managed to get an open PvE->PvP transfer from Hyjal to Black Dragonflight.

 

JamesVZ

Please don't be confused about this point, I was the one who posted the original topic and have no affiliation with anyone inside Fires of Heaven outside of posting to their board. While it appears that topic is somewhat of a stickler to people, it was not the only PvE->PvP transfer ever made, nor should it be the focus of the discussion either. I think many people are more interested in the "why can't we still" rather than the "how come they did" aspect of it.

 

◊ Vectivus

I think denying PvE to PvP transfers made absolute sense when paid transfers were first made available. Given the age of the game, it would have cheapened the leveling process for many - I would gladly pay $25 not to go through the psychological trauma that was STV just after vanilla release.

With that said, I think the OP is correct - the age where that 'feeling' of having worked harder to achieve level 70 (achieve? hmm...) on a PvP server is no longer relevant.

This would feed well into their plans for WotLK, too, where they plan on having PvP enabled zones even on PvE servers. Pardon my French, but let's just cut the crap, and let people pick whatever server they want to play on.

 

tristantio

Why don't they just make all the servers uniformly PvP servers if there is no additional grief associated with playing on a PvP server?

While the leveling 1 to 60 is possible without too much griefing nowadays on a PvP server, it still remains possible to do daily quests, out door rep grinds, mineral farming, and mote farming on a PvE server without ever suffering time loss due to being ganked.

While I do agree that it's unfortunate to have a character stuck on a PvE realm, I do not think that PvP server players and PvE server players are on equal footing as far as the 60+ game goes. PvE server players can do all the out door level 60+ character advancement without any time loss due to PvP combat, whereas this is simply impossible on a PvP server (When my warrior is protection spec'ed doing his dailies, I'm pretty much fodder for anyone who decides to gank. If I could just save up 10,000 gold on a PvE server and then transfer to a PvP server, I think it would be somewhat imbalanced).

 

◊ Vectivus

Half the player base actively chooses not to participate in world PvP by not being on a PvP server. If there's one thing Blizzard clings to (whether it's true or not), it's that they won't make decisions of this nature _for_ the player.

 

Nite_Moogle

If you think half the player base is on a PVE server you're delusional.

The people that this stupid rule punishes the most are the ones that have been on PVE servers from the beginning, choosing to roll there because of horrid memories of EQ PVP or the uncertainty that PVP would end up being mostly fair and fun. Don't forget that when the game was launched, PVP death meant a durability hit and was a much more 'serious' thing than today.

 

Benegesserit

This thread is near and dear to my heart. Benegesserit, my frost mage on Arathor (PvE), whom leveled on Darkspear 1-70 and like 95% of her inventory and gear is from Darkspear, was denied access to ever going home again. While I agreed to the rules when transferring her, the GMs could provide no reasoning behind this case. The old arguement about levelling complications on PvP was completely drowned in the fact that my mage did indeed go through all the hardships to level on PvP.

So because of that, the account is now inactive, and I picked up a new account and am now a shadow priest. The day Blizzard pulls their head out of their asses on this one, the day she'll be logged again.

 

◊ Vectivus

I'm not talking half in terms of pure number of players. There are 99 US PvE servers and 101 US PvP servers - hardly a dramatic imbalance in favor of PvP.

Thanks for your meaningful contribution to the discussion, though.

 

Nite_Moogle

Exactly what does player base mean if you aren't talking about the number of players?

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Well put.

To add to this, If they did enable PvE to PvP transfers, I highly doubt that there would be many that would choose to level on PvE, then transfer to PvP at level 70. The few that choose to do so wouldn't be very disruptive in terms of server health I don't think.

Enabling the transfers would make the playerbase happy, and make Blizzard a few more bucks, a true win-win.

 

JamesVZ

That is all level cap content, which would be experienced by those who choose to transfer over to a PvP environment. Also, saying that just because you do those quests on a PvE realm means theres no competition for them is a bit of a stretching of the truth. I've actually done it on both types of realms, and the difference for either isn't exactly much. Certainly not worth the trouble of locking down the transfers like they are. My experience may only be my own in this situation, but then again so is yours.

It's just simply not about any of that. You can apply the same logic in that you can level up on a low pop/strong faction PvP server and complete dailies with much the same impunity as you could on any PvE server. Yet they don't disallow doing that. It is inconsistent in policy to allow one server type to transfer to the other, but not the other way around. If they had restricted transfers to same server type, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But they didn't, and they continue to ignore pretty obvious fact and reality in their decision to not remove them.

 

Xav

God, opening PvE to PvP transfers would enable some of my friends who made absolutely terrible decisions to like, rejoin the rest of us and play their main characters again.

In total agreement with the OP, anyway!

 

Balkoth

I think the main different between leveling on a PvP server and a PvE server is when the server is new. I've leveled to 60 to Aggramar, Sen'jin, and Staghelm (all PvE realms). I've leveled to 60 on Altar of Storms and Lethon (PvP servers). I also have a 70 on Sen'jin and a 70 on Lethon.

I do completely see how a new server with people scrambling to 60 was a very different environment depending on whether it was a PvP or PvE server back in vanilla. But now...meh. 1-60 is pretty much deserted. Even 61-70 isn't so bad. The only argument I can think of for Blizzard is thinking of WotLK leveling.

Using the example of the person saving up 10,000g on a PvE server...who cares? You can do the same on a PvP server, just might be slightly more difficult. And it's not like people who are hurt most by these absent transfers (raiders) are going to constantly want to jump ship. They want a solid home to play in, and everyone on a PvE server is cut off from a significant amount of realms. Conversely, people on a PvP server won't transfer to PvE in many cases for fear of getting stuck. It's just a horrible situation in general.

In sum: the differences between a PvP and PvE server are not extreme enough to warrant this distinction at this point in time.

 

• sadris

I laugh everytime Juggernaut gets an app who transfers from a PVP server to Doomhammer, then they don't make it in. And then they are stuck in mediocre guilds forever, as most of the high-end guilds are on PVP servers.

'[The main argument against gay-marriage] always revolves around ... "the gay agenda"... Apparently all these gays only want to get married so they can adopt children, turn the children gay (probably using their mystic gay voodoo, passed gayly down from one gay generation to the next), and perpetuate their gayness.'
-- rantingkitten

 

Lambach

How is that pulling their heads out of their asses? Their rules have stayed the same, and as you said you agreed to them when you transferred, why would you think, or expect anything different?

 

Myonax

On Warsong there is always a continual battle at raid gathering point and whoever has the largest numbers controls the 25 man summoning stone. SSC if your faction isn't in control can take up to 2-3 death runs to get from the water to the portal. In Netherstorm if you don't control the stone you may have to wait 10 minutes for your 60% mount people to either take the Flightpath from Shatt to the eye. Repairs can also get frustrating, members of both faction in the eye love to park their mounts on the repair guy making it very difficult to click on the repair guy without accidentally attacking the alliance player. Same with SSC if another guild is outside gathering members and you need to repair quick you could take a few death runs to get to NPC and repair and get back inside.

I am sure everyone remembers the raid group towards the end of vanilla wow where the opposing faction would take turns MCing the main tank outside of Naxx for hours on end so that they couldn't raid. Leveling on a PvP server (specially since everyone is in outlands) is a minor inconvenience compared to a bored raid group.

I am on the fence on the issue as a whole, I have a friend who didn't understand the consequences of transferring his druid from a PvP realm to a PvE realm and then couldn't get it back to our realm. Most of the PvP that happens on a PvP server is in the BGs. I think most PvE player have never even contemplated what it means to control the stone, whether that is for 5 mans, 10 mans or 25 mans. PvE -> PvP has very little to do with leveling in my mind and has everything to do with travel and instance control. PvP probably adds 5-10 minutes on average to any individual raid/party members travel time. PvP even hass an effect on doing dailys, once Blades edge or Netherstorm gets crowded people will kill you to get their quest done faster and likewise you will do the same.

If you want to have a fair debate do not encapsulate this issue into how hard or how easy it is to level on a PvP server.

 

• Fogbug

You didn't mean half of all players, you meant half of the "player base?"

 

Symbul

I've been on that line for a long time. PvP leveling vs PvE has been the same experience for a very long time. I've leveled on both and it was all equally boring.

My biggest gripe with my PvE-levelled character isn't that I can't go and kill Horde players trying to farm or quest, it's that the quality and quantity of players is lower on PvE. Seriously. I even transferred off to a server in my main server's battlegroup (I'm mainly Horde as is shown on the left) and it was the same bad playerbase there. Everywhere I looked, Rogues with too-fast Mainhands, too-slow Offhands and other stuff of the sort, 0-1 guild per faction in Naxx at all and the Pugs generally atrocious.

Not saying everyone is elite on PvP but I was dismayed by my experience with PvE servers. I think it's different in the US and maybe on the high pop PvE servers in EU though. Doesn't the US have more PvE servers than EU anyhow? Anyway I picked PvE on release day for no real reason. Emerald Dream just sounded like a cool name for a realm. I'm pretty sure a lot of players are in the same boat.

 

Benegesserit

I agreed to bite the bullet on a stupid rule, that doesn't mean I didn't like it. I expect Blizzard to again, pull their head out of their asses and remember that not everyone is transferring a sub-70 character from PvP, nor has PvP become that much of a real thing anymore.

I'd agree that putting in a petition for the transfer was futile, but the purpose was to squeeze out the reasoning behind the rule, knowing that it wasn't going to change anyway. When the only reason provided was the one immediately debunked (for having leveled on PvP), I come again to the conclusion that Blizzard needs to get their head out of their asses and change it. PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.

Tell that to Blizzard. That appears to be the entire arguement their reasoning hinges upon.

 

Kir

I was on the same server as FoH, Hyjal, and transferred a level 20 something alt over when it was available. I thought it might be fun to play on a pvp server, and I sorta twinked my guy with like 40g for the 20-29 BG bracket. I left my main, at the time, on hyjal. That money was long gone by the time I was in any kind of contested zone and got past 29. I ended up leveling him to 39 because I felt there was little diversity or challenge in the 29 bracket. 39 was still easy, as was 49 (by this point, it was simply because of mages being very good in BGs back then, I was not considered a 'twink' once I was in my 30's).

In any case, the only time I ever got slightly frustrated at all, was the last 2-3 levels to 60, trying to AE farm Western Plaguelands. Very rarely, I would get some alliance mage come in trying to do the same thing, who generally out-geared me and started ganking me while I AEd. If he was really persistent, and I couldn't take him, I just went and soloed somewhere else. Wasn't really a big deal.

The ironic part is, on a PVE server, he could have just flagged himself and stood in my AE to get me flagged and then ganked while I was pulling anyway. Would have made me an open target to any other alliance too, and other horde generally just stare at you rather then get flagged themselves. On PVP servers, other people are more willing to help stop a ganker.

I leveled the mage for TBC, from day 1 that the xpac hit. Most people will remember the unspoken truce that existed in the packed zones as everyone leveled, so using that argument is sorta weak too. When the zones are overpacked, and everyone is leveling, most of them tend to not want to get into pvping. People generally only want to gank in world zones, not get into long drawn out PVP battles unless there is something to be gained.

In other words, it's some perceived notion that those who leveled on PVP servers had it so much harder then those who leveled on PVE servers. It seems to only exist with those who have never played on a PVE server, and from someone who has leveled on both, it's such a minor difference that it does not warrant this outright ban on transfer.

At the very least, put the time restriction stated above (minimum of X days played), and only to certain PVP servers that are older, not the brand new ones (which they wouldn't let lvl 70's of any server transfer to for a long time, anyway).

 

• Solari

I think the main problem Blizzard now perceives with opening PvE->PvP transfers is ruining the server communities on these PvE servers. While it isn't exactly common to see those in support of PvE servers being vocal about it (on Blizzard's forums or similar medium), I think that currently that those who quietly wish they had chosen to play on PvP (and would transfer given the option) far outnumber those happy with their PvE server environment. As such, if this change was implemented at the current time without thorough risk assessment, we could very easily see a fair number of PvE servers turning into ghost towns.

This is possibly unlikely to change in the near future, as world PvP has been in decline for some time, and as such this change could spell doom for some of the smaller PvE servers. In addition to this, the mad scramble for those on PvE servers to transfer to the more popular PvP servers could possibly lead to unnecessary server stress and overcrowding (after all, look what happened to Mal'Ganis when half of Arthas decided to jump ship and transfer there last year).

 

Benegesserit

A lot of small servers are already doomed due to the lack of player base with which to provide a stable economy, good raiding pool, and active community. This change would simply give them an out. The problem with the issue you brought up was Blizzard's reaction to the whines for more and more servers. It sounded like lot of them came from people who want to level race again. For the people in overpopulated server, Blizzard implemented a different system to get people moved over to other designated realms to ease the load.