PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue. - Page 11

Karamoon · 10/17/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stereo

Not that it's exactly relevant to the discussion

I think it's relevant because it goes directly to the time lost in unfair PVP situations on PVP servers; people either exaggerate the time or demonstrate that they really don't understand how to use basic game mechanics like ressing to their advantage. For some reason a lot of people think that the 'ressurect now' button doesn't function unless you stand touching your corpse, but it actually works anyware it shows. If someone is camping you, you don't go stand right on your body and res, you go over behind some terrain and res then run (or stealth if you can). This is about as basic to world PVP as 'doing damage or healing makes the mob turn to me' is in PVE.

but I feel I must explain the situation a little better. Our group was first ganked after dropping down the little side-chute after the stairs. This is rather far from the instance portal. Corpse hopping will only get you so far because the outer zone is also filled with trash that hasn't been cleared and doesn't aggro on the level 70's. A level 19 mage that has just rezzed with low health will only get 2 steps before dying again from either the trash that you rez in or the 70 that is stealthed there. Considering the distance to the actual portal, at 2-5 yards per rez, this would take an obscene number of hops to get to safety (each with longer and longer rez timers).

Like I mentioned, you don't have to res right on top of your corpse, you can res anywhere that you get the button, which is around 30 yards (or perhaps farther) from where your body is. You can easily be getting 30 yards each time just by ressing, not 2-5. You also should be able to get more than "2 steps" before dying, the trash in deadmines is nowhere near strong enough to 1-shot a level 19 even at half health, plus you have abilities like frost nova to buy a little more time. Yes, the 70 can one-shot you, but I doubt they're completely covering the whole distance from your body to where you can res ready to notice, target, and kill you in less than a second.

Stereo · 10/17/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Diogo

[...] By the way, there is also a huge difference between levelling in a low pop and a full server, but apparently those transfers are allowed. In the end, type of server only plays a tiny part of the levelling experience. Class, server population and time zone probably matter more.

I agree that there are some significant advantages to leveling on low-pop but after thinking about it, I believe that leveling on a high-pop has advantages that outweigh the low-pop leveling. If you are a person that is an excellent mob-grinder (AE grinding, etc) than low-pop may be better for you because there is no one to mess with you as you just burn down mobs for hours. But, on the other hand, being able to instantly get groups and have people share a fistful of quests with you as you enter an instance to clear it and knock out five quests is amazingly efficient. Also, another fabulous benefit, is the ability to quickly and cheaply buy non-soulbound quest items off the AH as you go through towns to empty bags and repair. There are a wealth of quests that require a special kind of ore or gorilla fangs or book pages (i.e. green hills of stranglethorn) or crafted items (gyrochronomatron, frost oil, etc.) that can be snatched for a few silver and turned in for a quick 4k xp that can help you maximize your questing time and reduce the amount of traveling and waiting for drops that can reduce leveling efficiency. Another nice feature is running into random people of your own faction that you perceive to be on the same quests as you. A lot of times I will have elite quests and see someone else eyeballing the same mobs that I am wondering how they are going to make the pull solo. I throw them a quick invite and we knock out a couple of difficult quests (for a ton of xp) together without so much as typing a word to each other because we know what the other is there for. Disregarding the aspect of pvp-griefing, I believe that high-pop servers have the leveling advantage.

Originally Posted by Karamoon

Like I mentioned, you don't have to res right on top of your corpse, you can res anywhere that you get the button, which is around 30 yards (or perhaps farther) from where your body is. You can easily be getting 30 yards each time just by ressing, not 2-5. You also should be able to get more than "2 steps" before dying, the trash in deadmines is nowhere near strong enough to 1-shot a level 19 even at half health, plus you have abilities like frost nova to buy a little more time. Yes, the 70 can one-shot you, but I doubt they're completely covering the whole distance from your body to where you can res ready to notice, target, and kill you in less than a second.

I understand the rez mechanics but unfortunately so do the campers so they will wait at the appropriate distance from corpse on the portal side. After trying to "rez->get dazed->get ambushed for 2k->release->run back" it gets ridiculous. Just the run from GY + the time to rez easily adds up to 30-40 minutes of absolutely WASTED time that 5 characters don't see as much as one point of xp. It's absolutely not worth it. My time is better spent finishing five quests on another character than getting fucked with for all that time on that particular character.

Some of the most brutal camping goes on at TM, of course where you can witness people trying to rez on the flight master and click through the flight selection dialog before taking a level 70 arcane shot to the dome. It's terribly depressing to die several times while your mouse was fractions of a second from clicking on the UC FP and escaping to freedom.

TheCutlery · 10/17/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Metrosexuelf

So yeah... it can definately lead to a kink in your questing plans for the evening but in the grand scheme of things... how much /played time is it adding to your goal of 70? 24 hours? 48? It only takes so long to run back to your corpse. And I hope it's time that is your biggest concern and not some form of intangible mental anguish because that would just be a silly reason to base policy..

I think there's a bit of a miscommunication going on here, as the side that is currently opposite mine in this discussion thinks that it's "Just a run back to the corpse" and we're talking about "ganking."

I'll attempt to break this down for you. This is not about "ganking." This is not about being killed while you're trying to kill a lion and going "Aww damn, I gotta run back to my corpse. This PvP stuff is hardcore."

This is about 2 or 3 bored level 70 retards SHUTTING DOWN A QUEST HUB. I was helping my buddy on his 38 paladin do the stromgarde quests last night. I'd sit in Stromgarde and wait for him to do the retarded "Go fetch this and come back" x5 quests. So he runs back to Hammerfall and lets me know there's a druid and rogue in there. He dies twice, and has to run back from the GY which is at Refuge point (quite the run to Hammerfall). By the time I get up there every quest NPC is dead, and if you're under level 60, you're dead too. So assuming you can even walk out of the city, it does you absolutely no good because the people giving you the quests aren't alive to do so. This is all assuming that the Flight Master is still alive too, which he sometimes isn't. You're left with no other options. You're not going to get out of the zone, you're not going to outrun a level 70 with an epic mount pre-60. You're not able to quest. This is not a "LOL RUN BACK TO UR CORPSE AND KEEP LEVELING" situation that you all seem to think it is. If I wasn't there to cut down the scrubs, he wouldn't have accomplished a single thing last night. Well, I guess he could go to Desolace and work on quests there, but honestly, Desolace sucks, and I shouldn't have to level my alts in zones that suck while PvE gets to pick and choose where they go and claim it's "Exactly the same." It's not exactly the same. It's not even close.

What my friends and I refer to as "Small dick syndrome," that is, the act of level 70's who can't actually compete with other level 70's needing to go kill lowbies in order to feel tough, is a daily occurance, and it has a profound effect on leveling speed and efficiency.

Lookit · 10/17/07, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Karamoon

Like I mentioned, you don't have to res right on top of your corpse, you can res anywhere that you get the button, which is around 30 yards (or perhaps farther) from where your body is. You can easily be getting 30 yards each time just by ressing, not 2-5. You also should be able to get more than "2 steps" before dying, the trash in deadmines is nowhere near strong enough to 1-shot a level 19 even at half health, plus you have abilities like frost nova to buy a little more time. Yes, the 70 can one-shot you, but I doubt they're completely covering the whole distance from your body to where you can res ready to notice, target, and kill you in less than a second.

Yes, one trash mob cannot one-shot a level 19. But if you have to run away from the 70's camping you, you will end up aggroing 10+ mobs that will daze and devour you.

Basically, a camper will one shot the party, then move 30 yards closer to the portal. You can either rez on top of them and get one shot or rez further from the portal and try to get through them. And even if 1 or 3 of you get through, you will still be waiting on the rest of your group to get there.

A skilled level 70 can easily prevent a lowbie group from reaching the deadmines for quite a while, let alone 2 level 70's.

Pamandria · 10/17/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

I think there's a bit of a miscommunication going on here, as the side that is currently opposite mine in this discussion thinks that it's "Just a run back to the corpse" and we're talking about "ganking."

I'll attempt to break this down for you. This is not about "ganking." This is not about being killed while you're trying to kill a lion and going "Aww damn, I gotta run back to my corpse. This PvP stuff is hardcore."

This is about 2 or 3 bored level 70 retards SHUTTING DOWN A QUEST HUB. I was helping my buddy on his 38 paladin do the stromgarde quests last night. I'd sit in Stromgarde and wait for him to do the retarded "Go fetch this and come back" x5 quests. So he runs back to Hammerfall and lets me know there's a druid and rogue in there. He dies twice, and has to run back from the GY which is at Refuge point (quite the run to Hammerfall). By the time I get up there every quest NPC is dead, and if you're under level 60, you're dead too. So assuming you can even walk out of the city, it does you absolutely no good because the people giving you the quests aren't alive to do so. This is all assuming that the Flight Master is still alive too, which he sometimes isn't. You're left with no other options. You're not going to get out of the zone, you're not going to outrun a level 70 with an epic mount pre-60. You're not able to quest. This is not a "LOL RUN BACK TO UR CORPSE AND KEEP LEVELING" situation that you all seem to think it is. If I wasn't there to cut down the scrubs, he wouldn't have accomplished a single thing last night. Well, I guess he could go to Desolace and work on quests there, but honestly, Desolace sucks, and I shouldn't have to level my alts in zones that suck while PvE gets to pick and choose where they go and claim it's "Exactly the same." It's not exactly the same. It's not even close.

What my friends and I refer to as "Small dick syndrome," that is, the act of level 70's who can't actually compete with other level 70's needing to go kill lowbies in order to feel tough, is a daily occurance, and it has a profound effect on leveling speed and efficiency.

What you just described can happen on a pve server too. The only difference is that the lowbies don't die, but the town can get wiped out.

Metrosexuelf · 10/17/07, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

This is about 2 or 3 bored level 70 retards SHUTTING DOWN A QUEST HUB.

I do understand what you are talking about. I saw it myself a few times, mostly with rogues exploiting guard mechanics in Booty Bay. That said I never encountered a situation where all of my options for gameplay for the evening were totally and completely shut down by such griefers. I won't deny it happens but it also... doesn't happen.

People will eventually get to 70 on a PvP server. It is simply a matter of time. But again... that doesn't strike me as a sufficient enough reason to not permit the transfers. And let's face it -- it all comes down to money. For whatever reason Blizzard has convinced themselves that sticking with this policy is the best fiscal choice. It's true they do like to have a bit of credibility when it comes to stuff like policing the game from 'tainting influences' like gold farmers and such so that it does appear more like a game with rules rather than the for-profit enterprise it is in reality. However, I just don't see it as being this untouchable third rail that would send millions of PvP server players into a screaming frenzy (the WoW forums being a rather poor sample).

JamesVZ · 10/17/07, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lookit

A skilled level 70 can easily prevent a lowbie group from reaching the deadmines for quite a while, let alone 2 level 70's.

All I can do is laugh at this. My best friend used to lead a little guild called The Twelve Prophets, you may or may not have heard of them. We'll say due to some drama, the guild imploded, and the membership core pretty much entirely left. Taelon, the leader, my friend, and the former raid leader, a dude named Monztamash, rerolled Alliance on Mannoroth shortly thereafter. At around level 45ish their names got out to the Horde, and they were perma camped. I'm not talking a few level 60s here, I'm talking raids of people geared to the teeth solely dedicated to tracking them down and killing them. When I say this, I mean it: there is no possible way to forcibly prevent anyone from getting into an instance for a prolonged amount of time. At all.

And this is why the majority of the posters here feel that your examples, the two or three of you, are exaggerated at least somewhat. No one else seems to have the problems you do, or if they do, certainly nowhere near the extent that you express them.

I'd like to take a moment here, however, to refer to the quote from Kreugen in the first post. PvP players who decide they do not like the ruleset at level 70 can easily decide to switch servers with no real investment lost. PvE players cannot do the same. How is this fair?

Maczor · 10/17/07, 3:51 PM

I personally have no objections to opening up Transfers from PVE => PVP becaues it would help the raiding game. But there is a huge difference in my experience in leveling between a PVE server and a PVP server. I've leveled to 70 Twice on Blackrock, and have a bunch of mid level characters, and the reality is you get consistantly ganked in pretty much every zone. I've probably lost several days /played during the 1-60 leveling process just running back to my corpse. When I leveled my first character from 60-70 in the first couple weeks there was no PVP because everyone wanted to hit the cap. But when I leveled my second character, getting ganked by level 70's with epic/normal flying mounts happened in every single zone.

I'm also casually leveling a mage on Tichondrius. I'm only level 25 and I've been killed so many times doing quests in Hillsbrad I can't even count. Level 70's attack TM every time I'm logged in. The run back from the TM graveyard to the other side of the map takes about 4 minutes. I've been leveling in TM from 21-25 so far and if I've been killed 30 times (which is easily true) then in the span of 4 levels I've spent 2 hours just running back to my corpse. This doesn't count time lost because of rebuffing/drinking or having 1/2 of your group spirit rez and log off because they got frustrated after being corpse camped for the 10th time.

Contrast that with my experience on a PVE server. I have a bunch of mid level PVE characters and the leveling experience is much easier. You can take bigger risks and level faster because you don't have to worry about that undead/night elf rogue coming out of stealth and 1 shotting you while you are AOE grinding or trying to solo that Elite mob for a quest. You can go AFK on the road because you know can't be killed. Now that there are summoning stones you can ALWAYS use them. There are just so many some convienences that a PVE server gives players that add up over time that doesn't exist on PVP servers.

Go ahead and open up transfers, but don't pretend for a second that there aren't major differences between leveling up, questing, and party/raids between PVE and PVP.

Sebudai · 10/17/07, 3:58 PM

How is this fair?

It's not.

My decision to start Juggernaut on a pve server was largely based on what pvp servers were like in EQ. Anyone that played EQ knows that there were the "normal" servers, and than there were the pvp servers. It was widely accepted that the pvp servers in EQ were infested with the scum of the game. The 12 year olds who want nothing more than to grief you all day. I don't know how true it was, but that's what people thought, including me.

Also, when we started Juggernaut we knew that our goal was endgame raiding. We were going to have to recruit, so we figured a pve server was our best bet for finding players that were interested in pve. Turns out we were wrong. Were we supposed to assume that pvp servers were the place to be for those interested in endgame raiding?

The fact of the matter is that in WoW pvp servers are the "normal" servers. If I had known it was going to turn out like this, I definitely would have selected a pvp server for my guild 3 years ago. I am certain that there are plenty of other guilds that feel the exact same way.

Digo · 10/17/07, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

It's not.

My decision to start Juggernaut on a pve server was largely based on what pvp servers were like in EQ. Anyone that played EQ knows that there were the "normal" servers, and than there were the pvp servers. It was widely accepted that the pvp servers in EQ were infested with the scum of the game. The 12 year olds who want nothing more than to grief you all day. I don't know how true it was, but that's what people thought, including me.

Also, when we started Juggernaut we knew that our goal was endgame raiding. We were going to have to recruit, so we figured a pve server was our best bet for finding players that were interested in pve. Turns out we were wrong. Were we supposed to assume that pvp servers were the place to be for those interested in endgame raiding?

The fact of the matter is that in WoW pvp servers are the "normal" servers. If I had known it was going to turn out like this, I definitely would have selected a pvp server for my guild 3 years ago. I am certain that there are plenty of other guilds that feel the exact same way.

This fits my experience perfectly. Had I known, I would have rolled on a PvP server.

Nite_Moogle · 10/17/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

The fact of the matter is that in WoW pvp servers are the "normal" servers. If I had known it was going to turn out like this, I definitely would have selected a pvp server for my guild 3 years ago. I am certain that there are plenty of other guilds that feel the exact same way.

Yep. There's no question I would have never been on a PVE server if I'd known how things would have turned out.

dexvx · 10/17/07, 4:26 PM

I'm pretty sure offering PvE -> PvP transfers to heavily imbalanced servers for whatever faction that is imbalanced against is a good idea. The PvE'ers get what they want: a PvP server and the PvP'ers on that server get what they want: more PvP action for them and their BattleGroup.

tedv · 10/17/07, 4:37 PM

At the risk of being redundant, here's a quick summary of the thread to date:

A) There is no gameplay value in allowing others to interrupt your questing. There is no gameplay value in interrupting the questing of others. The only value is the social value griefers get from costing other people time. Most people don't think this aspect should be valued highly, but it's not worth debating.

B) Through some paradox, PvP servers have the best PvE talent pool.

C) The value of access to the raid talent pool on PvP servers greatly outweighs the gameplay enjoyment lost by leveling on a PvP server.

D) Blizzard would make a lot of money if they allowed transfers from PvE to PvP servers. PvE players have more realms open to them, so more opportunities to pay. And PvP players are more likely to transfer to a PvE realm because they know they aren't locked in.

All of this leads us to one conclusion:

No one cares about world PvP.

All the arguments here have to do with leveling or raiding. I'm on a high population PvP server and while there is ganking in Tarren Mill, there is nothing resembling an interesting PvP game in the world itself. PvP means you get killed more leveling up, you get killed a little while farming, and there are territory fights for summoning stones. That's it. Each of these situations makes the game less fun, not more.

I doubt Blizzard would ever change all servers to PvE, but I'm sure that their customers would have more fun overall if they did.

Lookit · 10/17/07, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by JamesVZ

When I say this, I mean it: there is no possible way to forcibly prevent anyone from getting into an instance for a prolonged amount of time. At all.

I say without any doubt at all that I could go home right now, log onto my 70 rogue and camp the first group of lowbies heading to the deadmines for at least 20 minutes. Which is to say, 20 minutes from the time I kill the first one until all 5 of them are zoned into Deadmines. That's simply not a possibility on a PVE server.

I'd like to take a moment here, however, to refer to the quote from Kreugen in the first post. PvP players who decide they do not like the ruleset at level 70 can easily decide to switch servers with no real investment lost. PvE players cannot do the same. How is this fair?

It's seems fairly clear that Blizzard considers PvE servers to be Normal Difficulty WoW, and PvP servers to be Hard Difficulty WoW. Like many games, you can switch to Easy if you don't like Hard, but not vice versa. Clearly, this is mainly to do with leveling and very little to do with raiding. So obviously a forum predominantly dedicated to raiding will see it as a stupid rule. For an endgame raider, it is a stupid and meaningless distinction.

I'll say again - I don't care if they allow transfers. But saying "There's no difference between server types, Blizzard is retarded" is just not the case.

Loren · 10/17/07, 4:44 PM

The problem is simple. whatever solution someone is going to be unhappy, many players do not like the thought of pvers on their pvp server. I can see both sides...

If leveling on a pvp server is so easy, players who wanted to transfer would have done so(meaning rerolled) right before the expansion. Ok maybe their guild was still doing well then, but there is still little reason not to do so now. If you were transferring to play with friends, they surely would help you level and help you run 10 mans to get you able to raid. If I recall correctly there was a recent hunter recruit which a guild picked up in said manner. (ok it was more that he was alliance and not horde and wrong class...but...)

"I just want to raid and all the 'good' players on on XYZ server, I do not see why I should have to spend 500 hours of my life to just get back to my current progression"

Ok it would be more if you did not intend to transfer to a server where you had good friends. I like most players simply want to be able to have fun, so I do understand. More players tends to equal more fun. I understand declining populations oh so well, and just wanting to have fun. The problem seems to be everyone want to play on high population servers and they do not seem to have a plan to fix it.

So if I worked at blizzard here would be my suggestions.

1) Figure a way to reward players for playing on low population servers. The problem is the normal gift of easier leveling would be a large motivation for players to level there then simply transfer off. Only way to prevent said problem would be that anyone who accepted the leveling buff would need to have transfers turned off for lets say one year...as we all know how players love to have their transfer options limited, but what can you do.

2) Offer all PVE servers free transfers to new PVP reformation servers. The person is not allowed to transfer to other non-reformation servers until the next expansion, at which point all reformation servers would become PVP servers. This would have to be done for RP and non RP servers. This of course will not fix what the issue seems to be here, as most players simply want to transfer to realms with well established raiding guilds, but it would allow players who picked pve without knowing the true cost a way out.

3) PVE servers might require mergers to keep the playerbase reasonable. This of course is a PR nightmare for a MMO company, but would simply be the best thing to do as anyone who players on low population servers know the increased difficult of said environment.