I'm mostly done leveling my third 70 and have >150 days played total on all my characters, all of which are on PvP servers, and I've never been camped, ever. But because I hate world pvp for the most part I'm a total carebear and don't give them any reason to camp me. I don't spit, or run, or generally even fight back. I usually just /sigh, stand there and die, and do the corpse run. Gankers don't generally seem to get a whole lot of satisfaction out of that.

Regarding transfers, fundamentally, the players want it, no one really seems to be able to come up with anything it'll really hurt, and it'll make Blizzard more money in transfers and keep players playing WoW for longer. Isn't opening them up win-win?

Even if the amount of time you're set back form levelling is effectively doubled just by being on a PvP server (it isn't), it still pales in comparison to the amount of time spent playing at the end game, or the amount of time you would experience in PvP by transferring over. It's a minor fraction of the total picture, is what we're trying to say.

The concept of 'world PvP being dead' doesn't mean that nobody does world PvP anymore, nor does it mean that town raids constitute world PvP. Keep in mind that town raids are very frequent on PvE servers as well. It means that there is no practical reason to do world PvP for anything other than shits and giggles, and the type of person reduced to getting those shits and giggles strictly from world PvP are so ADHD in the first place that they rarely stay around to do anything other than annoy people for 5 minutes.

Level cap content being PvP enabled is not something anyone can simply circumvent by getting all their 'l33t upgad3z' on a PvE server, either. Nor is being on a PvP server a meaningful hardship endured that seperates them as a cut above any PvE guild. Nothing compares to the amount of time you have put into your character via INSTANCES, which are exactly the same on both PvE and PvP servers. The meat of the game occurs in your own little world, and it has been slowly moving towards that direction over the course of its life. I think it's safe to say that now is the appropriate time to open PvE->PvP transfers, given that shift in game direction.

Maybe people actually like world PVP when it is actually PVP and not a level 70 in full T6 killing level 28 characters? There is a big difference between balanced PVP at 70 and the above scenario.

I completely agree and this garbage drives me up the wall. You can see my earlier posts in this thread about those assholes on Tich that partake in that regularly.

On the other hand, there is plenty of level-matched world pvp on Tich (from my experiences). Only two days ago Un'goro was a hotbed of semi-organized pvp between several groups of alliance and horde. It started with a 56 lock and a 46 hunter killing horde and camping them (me included). Calls went out in general about then other horde starting making groups to track them and the alliance started grouping. With the exception of a 70 orc hunter that was in the zone for about 30 minutes, there weren't any "level-inappropriate" people storming the zone.

Well when first choosing my server type, my main reason for being on a pve server was firstly because I had friends there from other games and secondly I had a look at the pvp system in wow and I really wasn't interested in world pvp as it was done.

I'd played games before where there was pvp. The pvp had very serious consequences, loss of xp, loss of levels, stats, items etc. and was actually meaningful. The lack of consequences plus the fact that there was no level restrictions on who you could attack, (This is something I have never understood, it would be trivial to code, and fighting people only within your own level range brings some meaning to pvp systems instead of just being at the mercy of some bored idiot who it's impossible to fight) , didn't really endear me to wow world pvp.

In a pvp system with no real drawbacks to dying except for a small amount of time, instead of the wasted days/weeks of effort in some of the games I've played, I think it's a bit silly for anyone to think that it's that much more difficult to level on a pvp server. Wow death is trivial.

Given the choice between leveling up another character and doing content yet again for hundreds of hours before I'm back to square one or trying another MMORPG, I know which is starting to look more appealing.

No, they're not. While I really don't think that PVE vs PVP leveling is as huge of a deal as Blizzard makes it to be, it is still "a deal"

They just announced Paid Character Name Changes, so perhaps PvE -> PvP is another longstanding tradition they are reconsidering.

WoW Forums -> Paid Character Name Changes Are Here

You couldn't imagine? Had that alliance mage been an undead mage, what would you have done? What would your recourse have been?

Players on PvP servers might not think about it this way, but they spend hours every week in a PvE environment. It's raiding instances, it's Orgrimmar/Shattrath and it's every single member of their faction. Your friendly faction can do everything your enemy faction can. Except for ganking you or you ganking them.

The fact that you can't attack/kill players of your own faction is something I don't like. Its part of a much bigger problem in the depth of this game however, so I try not to get too worked up about it.

Oh believe me, there are days I wish I could crush the hell out of every tard on horde side as well. But at least I only need to put up with that kind of crap from half of the population. There's nothing worse than trying to get something done and having some Night Elf dancing in front of you for 3 hours. I can talk to my faction and tell him he's out of line for doing what he did. I'd have no recourse to do the same to Alliance if I couldn't kill him.

Orgrimmar isn't exactly what I'd call "PvE" since I'm not "versus" anything there. I don't raid, and I only do pickups 2 or 3 times a week. The major thorn in my side is the Alliance 70's who insist on killing my twinks and the ones who get in my way while I'm trying to farm. The ability to inflict punishment on people for being stupid is part of the game on PvP servers. I don't understand what compels people to NOT engage in world PvP, or even despise it as mentioned above. Clearly it wasn't because they rolled PvP to raid 3 years ago.

Oh, I can back up what he says. Even on an RP-PVE server, there are plenty of idiots who sole aim seems to be to prevent other people having even a modicum of enjoyment.

I've been on my server a long long time, spent most of that at the Crossroads, and off the top of my head, I can recall:

- Gangs of trinket mages spending literally hours blasting Bloodhoof Village to smithereens,

- multiple NE Rogues spending the best part of a whole day at the Crossroads

- NE Druids who seem to spend hours killing Newbies and who run away whenever anyone even remotely geared comes near them.

My own personal "favourite" was a gang of NE Rogues and assorted hangers-on that literally spent the best part of three weeks ganking lowbies in the Barrens and Durotar every evening all evening (anyone else from Argent Dawn EU will know exactly who I'm talking about).

Of course what all these guys had in common was that they were never seen in any BGs or anywhere where there was the slighest chance they would be killed (you'd never see them attack anywhere big, it was always the Crossroads, or the Valley of Trials or similar places).

I actually once had the mistorune to talk to some of these characters on MSN and they were literally 14-year old leet kiddies (with apologies to the clever and mature 14-year olds out there) who were treating WoW like some sort of Counterstrike add-on.

I suspect there's a spot of selection bias going on here - I have the impression that EJ people tend to be better geared and vaguely more skilled than the normal - the exact people that the pillocks in question won't go near because they know that their AH greens or their imba-leet-killing-40-levels-beneath-them-skills won't cut the mustard.

Of course, this could be all a bit moot when the /pvp command is available, but it is still definitely a problem.

That' not so easy to implement edenfall.

Then again, blizzard should really see how many persons on pvp servers say that they have never ever been camped while leveling up and realize it's more of a on paper problem rather than a real one

There's other people sporting this attitude, so I thought I'd try to quantify how much of "a deal" 92 minutes across 6 levels (or 920 minutes across 60 levels) really is in the case of my various characters that I would consider transferring, to try and put in perspective why I feel that the added hassle of leveling on a pvp server is a ludicrous reason to require abandoning characters and full rerolls. Not all players have played for the duration I have, and of course some have played for longer. I'd rate my playtime as middle of the "serious" road.

920 minutes works out to a convenient 15 hours, 20 minutes. So not even an extra day of /played. Across various characters (data collected using allplayed, an addon, and not considering bank alts or even all of my characters - just the first 3 characters I would transfer that are 60+) I have a total of 216 days, 14 hours, 12 minutes. We'll discard the 12 minutes as an assumed time spent gathering data.

216 days, 14 hours, converts to 311 880 minutes. The 920 minutes previous works out to less than 1% of my playtime (even assuming you tripled it to account for 3 characters).

I've already rerolled. If you're curious - it took me 4 days and 14 hours give or take 15 minutes to hit 60 on a paladin on a pvp server. A rough handful of people, no more than 15 total, tried to pvp while I was leveling, and I either ignored them or killed them. To be honest: Most players bitching in channel one about world ganking wouldn't last a week of running back to impossible c'thun, and I found it amusing to see how quickly the average would-be ganker would abandon me for other pursuits. Yes, dying along the way to leveling adds time - that time is easily offset by more efficient leveling (due to quests/guides/experience) in today's player base. My first 60 was a lethargic 12? days played. My druid on skywall was around 8.

To put things in perspective, I can easily remember sequential weeks of raiding - on a 5 day 4 hours a night 6 hours on the 5th night schedule, of wiping to c'thun. Assuming AQ40 clear to c'thun on night one, that's 12+6 = 18 hours of corpse running at a much higher cost than any bored 70 idiot in tarren mill could even dream of. I can remember wiping to vaelstrasz for similar time wasted. Or Thaddius. In fact, I think most players with characters on pve servers that have participated in serious raiding will have easily outpaced the 15 hour mark in terms of corpse runs to any number of activities.

Similarly, I can easily remember spending that much time or more in structured pvp groups during a single weekend. Admittedly wow pvp wasn't so compelling that I made a habit of tossing 18 hour weekends at it, but grinding out honor for my warrior pre-tbc had some long wsg/ab sessions. I think every player that had managed rank 3 probably totaled up 15 hours or more of "wasted" time.

Farming the reputation required for heroics this second time around, using the most efficient (instance then quest) methods easily out paces 15 hours.

Time spent developing a guild in wow? Far far more than 15 hours.

So yes, from my point of view, 15 hours and 20 minutes of time wasted to pvp is a drop in the ocean of time wasted by various tasks in wow. I don't particularly see why I shouldn't be allowed to transfer my character based on that flimsy argument.

The simple truth is that the pvp rule set isn't an elite leveling experience sufficient to deny character transfers. Most players on any rule set have more time wasted on various tasks in wow than the pvp corpse runs, several that would be considering these types of transfers have more time wasted on other tasks by orders of magnitude.

I'd be willing to listen to arguments about destabilizing populations, but time investment? That seems a fragile and ludicrous reason to base denying long-time customers the chance to salvage their much more signifigant time investments.

Lastly, I don't even particularly stand to benefit from PvE to PvP transfers - I rerolled horde from alliance, and I'm enjoying my new home. That said, I can say with some authority that the lack of PvE to PvP transfers severely damaged my guild, and continues to damage guilds that I respect. As a proponent of removing barriers to group growth, I would heartily endorse the addition of PvE to PvP transfers. Generally speaking, adding choice to players is a good thing for the health of the game.

The only hard factor is the fact that Blizzard might not be willing to actually engage in manually doing that. However, it would seriously not be so damn hard to have a meeting once a month where they look at the gear and loot table statistics and set a Yes/notYet for each server.

I agree with others saying it's really a negligible time amount added and a small penalty compared to the gigantic penalty that is being in a pve realm. I think indirect time losses from being in a pve realm like not having enough recruits, wiping more due to not having the same quality of players etc are a much larger timesink even if they can't really be counted.

I have leveled on both a pvp and pve realm and honestly apart from leveling at hillsbrad at the start and also the MAD ganking at STV during the honor patch there is just not enough world pvp activity to justify this. If it was always like it was in STV back then I would understand it, but I doubt most people would continue playing in a pvp realm if that was the case.

I'd never consider that they could do it manually.

Even if that was the case, it will be extremely hard and unfair.

If the best guild on the server is at mid ssc, would you allow a full t5 to transfer or would you block someone basing the progress on tier zones (ie: if you have only one item from hyjal or black temple you wouldn't be able to migrate there).

What about migrating on a ssc server with gear from first half of black temple when season 3 has already begun?

Can i migrate if i have a mix of t4-t5-t6 but, due to dkp/bad luck, in the end of the day have a worst total gear compared to that dude that farmed 20000 badges and has the best zul aman/karazhan drops?

Non real-time evaluation also sucks and can lead to unconsistent/unfair cases.

The point is that its already very barren. It can be very hard to get replacement players on PvE servers today. Not doing anything because you are afraid of the impact a change might have isn't a solution.

Part of the reason it's hard to get people on PvE servers is probably because people currently on pvp servers are unwilling to lock themselves into those limitations.

So what's the solution? Open up transfers and have all the PvE realms die off and then get merged into one, or shut down altogether? There are options in this game, people chose their realm style. Even if the "raid population" is discontent on a PvE server, does that mean that the server should be killed because of it? That's essentially the argument that you guys are bringing to the table.

If you're not believing our "Hyperbole" then lets go with yours. Everyone who raids on a PvE server would transfer off immediately so that they could actually raid. This would leave said server in shambles as they have no level 70 community to speak of. No one would roll up new characters there, it would never be replaced. That server would in essence die. And yet...you're not the only people on the server. There are plenty of people who enjoy logging on and farming or running instances with their friends and this change, if we're to believe what you guys say, would destroy their server completely. The AH's would stagnate with no raiding crowd to feed it, and the server would die completely within a year. Do you really think that outcome is in Blizzard's best interest? Are you saying that your own self interests trump the interests of the server at large?

Well, the alternative would be to hold the raiding community hostage to feed the non-raiding community would it not? That's a rather strange situation to be considered ideal. I'd argue that the truly casual community shouldn't care a bit if the raiders are still there on the server or not anyhow perhaps. There is some cross play-style economic activity but if my server is any indication, there sure isn't much.

There are many potential solutions to the situation and we'll see if Blizzard ever implements any of them.

There is a Resto Druid on The Underbog in 4/5 T6, including the chestpiece. Our most-progressed Horde guild has Vashj down and is learning Kael; our most-progressed Alliance guild is learning Vashj.

The shift of higher-tier gear will happen, because Blizzard says that T6 Druid from <wherever> can move to our little backwater sandbox to 'play with his friends'. There is no rational explanation, in this regard, as to why PvE servers can't transfer to PvP servers.