PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue. - Page 18

Dukanull · 11/27/07, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

Here is a response: If it is no problem for someone to put 200 days into a character...then what is another 35+ hours for level'ing a new toon?

This is coming from me, a guild officer, owner/webmaster of our website, and the one who pays for our guild ventrilo.

You spoke in extremes, which it is a well-known fact this game is more geared to the casual player.

You are definitely correct in your statements "whats another hour in farming". Thats true. Again my response is "Whats another 35+hours for level'ing a new character?"

What about those legendary bug mounts? Gladiator titles? Rare Drops? These are irreplaceable things that people should not be forced to give up to open the doors to the high-end PVP guilds that they should have access to anyway.

Styphen · 11/27/07, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by path411

no PvE -> PvP also discourages players to transfer to PvE.

If transfers from pve -> pvp were open I'd jump on my brother's PvE server and not be scared of being stuck not being able to get back to a PvP server

Lol yea Im currently stuck on Shadowsong of course I fled a totally dead PvP server, thax blizzard.

Anias · 11/27/07, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

Here is a response: If it is no problem for someone to put 200 days into a character...then what is another 35+ hours for level'ing a new toon?

This is coming from me, a guild officer, owner/webmaster of our website, and the one who pays for our guild ventrilo.

You spoke in extremes, which it is a well-known fact this game is more geared to the casual player.

You are definitely correct in your statements "whats another hour in farming". Thats true. Again my response is "Whats another 35+hours for level'ing a new character?"

Losing 200 days played is far more likely to incite account cancelation, and general player apathy, than having blizzard comp you the 35 hour leveling bonanza.

Can you honestly tell me that you would be 100% ok with blizzard seizing your account today, and just starting anew?

If so, you can mail me the account information and I'll find the genteel merchant to take it off our collective hands.

Forcing abandoning of time investment for players on PvE servers that wish to join their friends (made through the internet community building tool that vastly butcher's wow's community building tool) but not forcing the same abandonment of time investment for players on PvP servers directly undermines the core mechanic of the Diku Progression Game Genre - player time matters.

In wow, Player Time on PvP Servers Matters More.

That's ridiculous.

Disarbadia · 11/27/07, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

1) Seems like there is a solution to everyones complaints!!!!
2) Again, one (or 10) people's experience does not counteract the possibility of things happening. You not getting ganked = congrats for you! Someone else may spend hours being corpse camped.

You mentioned farming with no problems, that just means you should be on a PvE server!

So because I can manage to farm without getting myself killed by other players (To say nothing of those who I kill while farming), I should play on a PvE server? Sorry, I play flagged on my hunter cause I enjoy teh peeveepee. I don't roll on a PvP server just to say thats what kind of server I play on. I play on them because they add a mild spice to the everyday shit of this game. I like being able to engage in PvP combat outside of BG's and arena.

Originally Posted by Falcore

I tend to think that people who want to be on a PvP server just want to do it so they can say they are on one...not because they really enjoy the PvP aspect of the game. PvE allowes for pvp to happen, just flag yourself! I've found that is what most people want anyway...to PvP on their time, not whenever anyone else wants to.

Next time you are up at elemental plateau, and you see a nice peaceful alliance player leaving you alone...go kill him 3 times. See how long he stays nice.

People that talk about avoiding PvP and then saying it is the same to level or quest or farm on PvP vs PvE servers are not playing PvP servers how they are meant to be played.

I only avoid PvP on days when I'm just not feeling it, which is rare. Playing my hunter, despite being flagged 24/7, people avoid combat with me, which makes me not want to play him, hence my reroll.

And I do tend to kill people farming in my areas, they're stealing my kills!

Falcore · 11/27/07, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Because leveling a new character forces Sebudai to lose 300 days of character development.

He lost nothing...he still has the character at his disposal. Also, those 300 days are irrelevant now. I can get the top gear in the game in 50 or so days just by level'ing and doing arenas! What he got in those 300 days is trivial to what is important in the current game

And again, its nothing lost!

It's common knowledge transfers should be open due its direct effect on potential guild seeking individuals.

Thats funny...limiting PvE -> PvP transfers would limit PvP guilds from recruiting in PvE servers. Nothing is stopping PvE guilds from seeking players from PvP servers.

jamurai · 11/27/07, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Huntardish

Uhm..I pretty much play this game all day long since I have nothing better to be doing (High school FTW) and I farm primals in Netherstorm, Nagrand, Zangarmarsh and Shadowmoon Valley for hours on end without much, if any downtime at all due to world PvP. Farming those same primals on my hunter (Who is on a PvE server) is just as time consuming and annoying. I have my Netherdrake on my hunter, which I got while he was on Azgalor (A PvP server), I leveled my hunter 1-70 on a PvP server, I did most of my raiding on him on a PvP server, but decided to raid with a better guild on a PvE server. Well, turns out that lasted about 2 months before Vashj/Kael burnout set in and we stopped raiding. Great, I'm stuck now. All that work on a PvP server, then 2 months on a PvE but I'm stuck for life, great.

Solution? I rerolled on a PvP server to do it all over again. So far I've gotten about 35 days /played on my warlock since I rerolled (3 months ago), I have my epic flying mount, I have about 4000 gold on me, and I farm primals all day/night along with the occasional raid. This game is so absurdly easy to do shit in, I don't get how people think that PvP servers make it so much harder. I die more often to me not paying attention and letting mobs kill me than some full merc rogue jumping me in my farming areas.

I guess pre-BC when STV was indeed traumatizing to get corpse camped for hours in it may have seemed more difficult but really, thats completely your own fault for letting it happen. You could always have logged off and done something else for a while (Go outside, maybe?). You could have spirit rezzed and gone to another zone (STV is NOT the only place to level 30-45, folks). But in this day and age of WoW, where everyone is in Outlands on the Elemental Plateau getting their farm on, who's to gank you in winterspring? Oh, that one Gnome Mage who got lost, he'll kill you maybe twice at the most and you'll both move on with your life. That cost you what, 5-10 minutes of your time? Don't go prancing around claiming you're a super hardcore badass cause you leveled 1-70 on a PvP server and spent about one extra day /played getting there due to being ganked, really, you aren't special.

In all honesty, this game is catered to the casual in the end, I don't see why Blizz hasn't noticed some moron who didn't bother reading about no PvE -> PvP transfers (Or didn't know about transfers at all) when they made their character then when they go to transfer to play with friends, they find out its not allowed. If people are willing to spend the money on it, then why is Blizzard stopping them? In no way will it ruin the game at all. If people are worried about gold farmers farming up 10,000 gold then transferring, limit the gold transfer of PvE -> PvP to 1,000 gold. Thats plenty to take along with you if you have it, considering alot of the people in my guild and in the game in general seem to be in awe of having over 500 gold if you already bought a flying mount of something.

Opening up PvE -> PvP transfers is in no way game-breaking or game-enhancing for those doing it or those on the servers they come to/leave. No sense in not allowing it or arguing for it to not be allowed, all arguments for it are long outdated and people need to realize this if they haven't already.

Dude please... Obviously your whole point is mute due to the fact that your PvP server sucks. You can talk about your experiences all day if you like. If you have it easy... then whoopity freaking doo for you. The only way you can say that you don't have any down time due to PvP is if you either farm in packs, or don't come across anyone of the opposite faction. If a single Horde and a single Alliance player go for the same mob, which will happen often, then I can promise you that a fight will break out. I can't imagine a PvP server where two players of the opposite faction will take turns killing mobs. That's just plain retarded, so just give it up.

The rest of your brick of text is mute as well. It appears to me that you think I care what happened pre-BC. Get over yourself.

It's Blizzards game with Blizzards rules... you knew full well that if you transfered PvE for a raiding guild that you would get stuck, and you chose to do it anyway. Quit crying about it.

Griswolde · 11/27/07, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

There was nothing to research? Go to server forums and look at different progression charts. Ask around with level 1 alts as to how far in progression servers are.

You assumed...that was your problem.

And people on PvE servers mostly are more interested in PvE...doesn't mean they are better at it than PvP-focused players.

I guess my *'s around "at release" as in "at the release of the game" wasn't enough.

Sharcel · 11/27/07, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Huntardish

Or he would proably wait 3 months and transfer back.

I see no loss on Blizzards part from this.

Again, we're all here at Elitist Jerks discussing this because we're not carebear casuals. 3 months is not a big deal to us, neither is the perceived "loss of control" over our characters and our environment. But to a guy who's putting in maybe 2 hours a day on WoW, three months means $45 down the tube for nothing. If he cancels, what is the likelihood he'll come back? I'll be the first to admit I'm addicted to this game, but it's no skin off of Joe Shmoe's back to stop playing a game that makes him feel helpless.

I can see Anias' point about lack of control over our characters and loss of character time, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. I would love to transfer my PvE characters to my PvP server and think it is an incredible waste that I can't. But if we look at it from Blizzard's perspective, what we think do not matter as long as it does not stop us from playing. I've threatened to quit plenty of times. I closed my account for three months. In the end, I always come back. In this sense we can say that our putting massive amount of hours into the game helps Blizzard gauge just how unimportant we are compared to casuals - in terms of our opinions anyway.

A guy who pays $15 a month and spends 60 hours logged on is more valuable than a guy who spends 300 hours in the same time period. Blizzard knows what its priority is, and it's certainly not us.

JamesVZ · 11/27/07, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

People that talk about avoiding PvP and then saying it is the same to level or quest or farm on PvP vs PvE servers are not playing PvP servers how they are meant to be played.

With no offense meant, ignorance is a poor excuse. Not doing research into what server you pick is like saying to a cop that you didn't see the sign that said "STOP" on it.

I don't really think it's your, or anyone's, place to dictate how PvP servers are 'meant' to be played. We can only look at what Blizzard encourages us to do via in-game mechanics. Those in-game mechanics point to the fact that random world PvP is essentially dead. There is literally 0 game backed reason to engage in random world based PvP. Period. Couple that with Anias' very accurate description of player time and its value, and you're left with a grossly unfair character transfer system. We're not talking some minor imbalance that's an annoyance at best, we're talking a strict barrier to recruitment, guild killing, stomp your ass policy that makes no sense in the current state of the game. The policy has existed long enough to very noticeably show that it DOES have an adverse affect on server populations. You cannot deny this.

As to the second paragraph, Gurgthock covered that near the beginning of the thread. In fact, most of your post in simply rehashed from others in this thread, and has been shown to be decidedly ignorant of the matters at hand more times than one. I'd suggest reading from the top down.

Styphen · 11/27/07, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sharcel

I've always believed Blizzard's reason for preventing PvE -> PvP server transfers involve exposing people of one mindset to another. As someone who have leveled up to 70 both on PvE and PvP servers, I can confidently say there is a difference. On PvE, players try to play fair, in general. There is a pervasive sense of decorum, of courtesy and fair play. When someone behaves like a jackass, they do it with the understanding that there is an unspoken rule they are breaking, that they are behaving in a way that goes against the moral grain of those around them. This is not the case on PvP servers.

On PvP, civilized behavior does not grant brownie points. If you leave a member of the opposing faction alone because he is much lower level than you, there is no guarantee he will do the same. He may come after you when you spirit rez, he may call out your location to higher leveled toons in the area, he may log on his main and gank you over and over again, and there would be no hard feelings on either side. The people who whine on PvP realm forums about bullies are ignored and even mocked, and it isn't because they are wrong, it is because bullying and "Might is Right" is the unspoken rule of the server. If you are too weak to fight, don't expect laws to protect you. Run, and come back when you are stronger. If you are being bullied by one character, come back with four friends and turn the tables on him. That's the mindset you have to expect on PvP.

If you look at how much Blizzard caters to the casual gamer, if you look at the fact that this appeasement is what made the game so successful, then it really wouldn't surprise you to know that Blizzard wants to keep carebears away from the hardcores. They'd lose money every time a cocky casual thinks he's purple enough to transfer to pvp, only to have his butt handed to him repeated over an 8 hour ganking period. His finger would go on the "Cancel Subscription" button when he realizes that his whining over "unfairness" falls on deaf ears, and his illusion of civility and cordiality in a video game is shattered by the brutal truth: in WoW, he is just as powerless as he is in real life, perhaps even more so because the rules here are arbitrary and no one actually needs to obey by them. If a hardcore wants to play on PvP, he can roll a new toon. If a carebear wants to try it, let him roll a new toon too, so he could slowly relearn the game and not get put off by "cultural shock".

What you believe PvE servers consist of? Please try them before you judge or make assumptions. Ive posted this before in this thread but I have only played on 2 PvE servers ever.

1: Immediatly after friends and family WoW beta.
2: When I transferred off my totally dead Anetheon server to Shadowsong

Now dont take my PVP experience as a dead PvP server I started out on Malganis and Sargeras and have re rolled a few times. But I can say I have experienced far more World PVP on Shadowsong then any of those servers minus Malganis at launch(after the week of the server being down)

PvE - PvP should be allowed its not like the PvP in this game is hardcore anyways some of you epeeners wouldnt even try a hardcore server if there was one so please stop boasting this economy stuff.

Now if its not allowed one thing should be allowed you should have a fair right if you were PvP and went PvE to go back. I think the money you pay in subscriptions and transfers warrants a free shot at being able to do the only thing MMO's are for shooting for that carrot dangling on the stick and raid or I guess.......arena.

I knew what I was getting into but in no way because of my work and raid schedule should I be forced to not be able to raid.

Falcore · 11/27/07, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by Anias

Losing 200 days played is far more likely to incite account cancelation, and general player apathy, than having blizzard comp you the 35 hour leveling bonanza.

Can you honestly tell me that you would be 100% ok with blizzard seizing your account today, and just starting anew?

If so, you can mail me the account information and I'll find the genteel merchant to take it off our collective hands.

Forcing abandoning of time investment for players on PvE servers that wish to join their friends (made through the internet community building tool that vastly butcher's wow's community building tool) but not forcing the same abandonment of time investment for players on PvP servers directly undermines the core mechanic of the Diku Progression Game Genre - player time matters.

In wow, Player Time on PvP Servers Matters More.

That's ridiculous.

There are not forcing anything. You are more than welcome to keep your character, just not on a PvP server.

I agree with you that no player's time is worth more than anothers...which is why I favor not allowing any transfer.

Why do people want to transfer anyway?
1) To be with their friends - have their friends join the PvE server!
2) To experience the PvP environment - experience it all you want, from the beginning (lvl 1!)
3) To go back to a server they were on - how funny, you left to go farm or finish level'ing and now you want back?

I'm sure there are many valid reasons, I just fail to see a point in opening them up other than to exploit the ability to level and farm as well as other things at an increased rate.

Would it be game-breaking if they changed it? No, absolutely not. Would I really care? No, I wouldn't. However I'm simply not in favor of it. I see no reason to invite more carebears to PvP servers (at least thats the main problem I see)

Amera · 11/27/07, 4:07 PM

Anecdotal examples about personal experiences leveling, farming, and whatever-ing really aren't relevant or useful to debate since everyone can produce examples/counter-examples to their liking. It comes down to a few hard points:

1) The game is not the same as it was 3 years ago. World PvP used to be the only PvP, and server differentiation was an intuitive extension of that system. This is no longer the case. Virtually all of a character's life is spent at the level cap in instances of one kind or another, and world PvP is the least relevant and Dev supported PvP of any of the other types (lament this if you want, but it's a fact at the moment). The rationale for this split of servers has been made obsolete.

2) Raiding progression is tied disproportionately to PvP servers. Splitting up servers breaks apart your community in a meaningful way that makes recruitment more difficult for players on PvE servers. This is essentially a double break up, because you also have a faction line that you can't cross for recruitment. If WoW didn't have such a robust selection of players (and it won't forever), this separation of players would be even more noticeable.

3) Re-rolling is not an option for most players. While people toss out anecdotal examples of this, the fact is you may be tossing away up to 3 years of social and gaming capital on a particular server which is completely irreplaceable, especially for hardcore players who have more to lose.

4) Permanent decisions are not Blizzard's forte. You can change many aspects of your character as much as you want, like tradeskills, spec, faction allegiances, and whatnot. Their design philosophy is built around flexible characters, yet an arbitrary decision for most people made on day 1 of the game is now a huge factor in determining the future of their character progression - potentially even the biggest factor for some players.

Thandi · 11/27/07, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

With no offense meant, ignorance is a poor excuse. Not doing research into what server you pick is like saying to a cop that you didn't see the sign that said "STOP" on it.

I think you are deliberately ignoring the fact that he did indeed do his research. He picked a PvE server because he thought this was the path to have access to greater PvE progression (I think pretty much everyone agrees this is a reasonable thought).

I don't think that most reasonable people would say that it would have been obvious to predict that PvP servers would be the bastions of raid progress.

Zaq · 11/27/07, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

Originally Posted by Griswolde

How exactly is not knowing that pvp servers would excel at raiding *at release* ignorance? There was nothing to research. I just assumed that people who were more interested in pve would roll on pve servers.

There was nothing to research? Go to server forums and look at different progression charts. Ask around with level 1 alts as to how far in progression servers are.

You assumed...that was your problem.

Are you really and honestly this dumb?
There weren't any level 1 alts around at release, just level 1 mains. People didn't know anything about how the game would turn out, and much of what we knew then has changed significantly. People who had the misfortune of guessing wrong initially are being forced to either reroll or suffer. Every PvE server suffers because they're an isolated group now, Anias has restated the point quite eloquently, made you should read it.

Anias · 11/27/07, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sharcel

A guy who pays $15 a month and spends 60 hours logged on is more valuable than a guy who spends 300 hours in the same time period. Blizzard knows what its priority is, and it's certainly not us.

It's in the best interests of every player involved to allow transfers to flow both ways - as that leads to better group formation. There is no harm to allowing a player to transfer from pve-->pvp aside from some ego bruising that would be very quickly forgot. The differences between the PvP servers and the PvE servers, asside from the artificial entitlement transfers, are demonstrably less than the differences between low and high pop servers. Not to offend the ego's of the "zomg we are so hardcore with our 15 days played to 70 on a pvp server" crowd, but your member's attention span is generally pretty short.

The benefits have been spelled out fairly dramaticly.

Better community growth, on both types of servers by removing restrictions on players that prevent them from finding a place to be happy.

Less sense of abandonment, and higher chance that a player who is "stuck" temporarily will continue their account subscription until they can move rather than cancel and take up zelda rather than reroll.

A decent publicity chance to help equalize populations on low-pop realms (if they so desire).

Reinforcing the core mechanic of wow, that the player's time invested in the game matters, and in turn increasing the value of a wow subscription to the playerbase at large, once again helping to ensure resubscriptions.

Not to mention the various other benefits large and small that have been covered elsewhere far more eloquently than I could restate them.

Falcore · 11/27/07, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by JamesVZ

There is literally 0 game backed reason to engage in random world based PvP. Period.

1) You get honor from killing an opponent - which leads to getting gear
2) You can prevent someone from finishing an escort, which delays their level'ing, helping your faction
3) You can prevent someone from killing a mob needed for a quest, or a certain drop
4) You can prevent someone from taking your herb or mine.
5) The joy you get from seeing a dead player from the opposite faction

Those are 5 reasons to engage in random world PvP according to Blizzard. You saying there are 0 reasons shows your PvE attitude towards the game, giving you a biased opinion.

As to the second paragraph, Gurgthock covered that near the beginning of the thread. In fact, most of your post in simply rehashed from others in this thread, and has been shown to be decidedly ignorant of the matters at hand more times than one. I'd suggest reading from the top down.

I have no doubt things I said have been said before. Matter of fact, I'd say 95% (or more) of posts these days are rehashed conversation.

Someone picking one server over another was due to a lack of research into what the 2 environments offered.

Disarbadia · 11/27/07, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

He lost nothing...he still has the character at his disposal. Also, those 300 days are irrelevant now. I can get the top gear in the game in 50 or so days just by level'ing and doing arenas! What he got in those 300 days is trivial to what is important in the current game

And again, its nothing lost!

Thats funny...limiting PvE -> PvP transfers would limit PvP guilds from recruiting in PvE servers. Nothing is stopping PvE guilds from seeking players from PvP servers.

Sebudai may still have the character at his disposal, but what about things like being Exalted with old world factions? While it may not impact gameplay, it is something he spent weeks working to accomplish. Maybe he has a legendary AQ mount, can't get that on any new character he makes no matter how much time he spends on it.

It's not so much about getting whats best now, but keeping what he worked on over the course of the game. Really, he is losing out by rerolling.

And to say theres nothing limiting PvE server guilds from recruiting from PvP servers? You're being thick if you can't see whats stopping people.

Still haven't figured it out? It's the whole discussion of this thread! PvE server guilds cannot easily recruit off PvP servers due to the high risk of the player ending up in a situation like I did, being stuck there if things don't work out.

Originally Posted by jamurai

Dude please... Obviously your whole point is mute due to the fact that your PvP server sucks. You can talk about your experiences all day if you like. If you have it easy... then whoopity freaking doo for you. The only way you can say that you don't have any down time due to PvP is if you either farm in packs, or don't come across anyone of the opposite faction. If a single Horde and a single Alliance player go for the same mob, which will happen often, then I can promise you that a fight will break out. I can't imagine a PvP server where two players of the opposite faction will take turns killing mobs. That's just plain retarded, so just give it up.

The rest of your brick of text is mute as well. It appears to me that you think I care what happened pre-BC. Get over yourself.

It's Blizzards game with Blizzards rules... you knew full well that if you transfered PvE for a raiding guild that you would get stuck, and you chose to do it anyway. Quit crying about it.

My point is mute because my server sucks? I get ganked DAILY by multitudes of idiots like you. But you know what? Due to superior skill I kill them repeatedly until they either go away or bring in more people, at which time I go find something else to do if I can't kill them all. I will talk about my experiances all day long, just like you have, don't tell me to stop until you do also. You're a warlock just like I am, to say I have it easy is absurd to me, I may have it easy when it comes to farming, but what happens when a lock in a better gear than me rolls up, banishes my felgaurd (who I use to farm) and wrecks me? Isn't quite so easy after that, I'll just have to go somewhere else I guess or log out and go take my dogs for a walk or burn time some other way until they go away.

If a single Horde and single Alliance go for the same mob, you can promise a fight will break out? I'd agree that 9 times out of 10 it will, but promising it will isn't true. One person may be a carebear or plain lazy at that given time and not want to fight.

You don't believe people will just take turns killing mobs? Well, I guess you haven't played enough of this game, so you can just give it up.

I know you don't care what happened pre-BC, what about myself am I getting over?

You know what, I DID infact know full well I may be screwed when I transffered my hunter, do you hear me crying about it? No, I just rerolled to play on a server I truly wanted to be on since it was my only option outside of playing on a PvE server. I'm just arguing the side of allowing PvE -> PvP transfers.

I think you need to get your head out of your ass, play the game more and realize how pointless it is to ban PvE -> PvP transfers. If it comforts you any, I wouldn't transfer my hunter off a PvE server if the transfers opened up, so I wouldn't wreck your silly vision of this game anyhow.

• sadris · 11/27/07, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

Nothing is stopping PvE guilds from seeking players from PvP servers.

Supply and demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are lots of PVE guilds looking for applicants. There are not a lot of skilled players on PVE servers which haven't already been scooped up. There are not a lot of PVP players which are willing to risk transferring to a PVE server and end up getting denied. It is quite strange since there are so few highly-progressed PVE guilds; one would think that the "pool of 'original' PVE players" would be sufficient to supply these guilds with an adequate player-recruitment base:

Fusion
Juggernaut Guild
Forgotten Aspects
Ascent Guild

Four. Four Horde guilds in the top 50 list for US. All of them are recruiting.

Griswolde · 11/27/07, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Falcore

Someone picking one server over another was due to a lack of research into what the 2 environments offered.

You're obviously cherry picking posts or parts of posts to respond to, so I don't even know if there's a point to replying. I would like to reiterate that you simply could not do the type of research you're talking about at the release of the game. There were no progression threads or population statistics or anything like that.

Falcore · 11/27/07, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Zaq

Are you really and honestly this dumb?
There weren't any level 1 alts around at release, just level 1 mains. People didn't know anything about how the game would turn out, and much of what we knew then has changed significantly. People who had the misfortune of guessing wrong initially are being forced to either reroll or suffer. Every PvE server suffers because they're an isolated group now, Anias has restated the point quite eloquently, made you should read it.

Well gentlemen (and ladies?), when insults start, I stop. I usually just read posts here, but today decided to post since other forums aren't up at the moment.

1) Most of you admit there ARE differences (no matter how small) between the servers in terms of level'ing and farming. Even if it is overall only 1 hour....1 hour to someone who plays 2 hours a week is a lot of time! You can not ignore the fact that all differences favor the PvE servers, with the exception of PvP knowledge.

2) To those talking about "since launch of WoW". Sorry, times have changed. You saw how servers were progressing. True, you are correct that I guess you couldn't research who would progress more...but you only have yourselves to blame for the lack of progression. If your guild wasn't top notch, it wasn't because PvP vs PvE server...it was because your guild sucked.

3) All research aside, tell me who YOU think the better players would be at all aspects of the game:
A - Those who can kill scripted repeatable encounters
B - Those who can adapt to a dynamic environment and react quickly and efficiently

4) I understand the opposing side of this argument, and in all honestly I couldn't care less which way it ends up, as I've stated. However my opinion is that there should not be any server transfers from PvE to PvP. From your own comments it seems PvP servers are more progressed in raiding, and usually superior in PvP (again, just a guess...i could be wrong). If thats true, then there is no incentive to open the doors to PvE players from my perspective.

Again, its my opinion, and I'm sure there are millions that don't agree.

As the old man said near the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade-
"He chose...poorly"
(or something like that).

I bid you adieu...

edit
5) One more thing - its MOOT people. Your point is MOOT. Not mute.

Sharcel · 11/27/07, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by Styphen

What you believe PvE servers consist of? Please try them before you judge or make assumptions. Ive posted this before in this thread but I have only played on 2 PvE servers ever.

1: Immediatly after friends and family WoW beta.
2: When I transferred off my totally dead Anetheon server to Shadowsong

Now dont take my PVP experience as a dead PvP server I started out on Malganis and Sargeras and have re rolled a few times. But I can say I have experienced far more World PVP on Shadowsong then any of those servers minus Malganis at launch(after the week of the server being down)

PvE - PvP should be allowed its not like the PvP in this game is hardcore anyways some of you epeeners wouldnt even try a hardcore server if there was one so please stop boasting this economy stuff.

Now if its not allowed one thing should be allowed you should have a fair right if you were PvP and went PvE to go back. I think the money you pay in subscriptions and transfers warrants a free shot at being able to do the only thing MMO's are for shooting for that carrot dangling on the stick and raid or I guess.......arena.

I knew what I was getting into but in no way because of my work and raid schedule should I be forced to not be able to raid.

I have leveled three characters to 60 on PvE, and two to 70. I'm not saying ass-dickery does not occur on PvE, I'm saying that people who do engage in it are aware they are doing something "wrong", that people will look down on them and judge them poorly. But much of the same behavior on PvP is considered to be accepted and normal, and people feel they're entitled to the type of bullying that they engage in. This never sits well with casuals, and for good reason. They're not as proficient with the game and cannot deal with the unfairness the way hardcores can. We know our options, we are used to it; They just feel helpless and rejected. So they quit. And that is bad for business.

Styphen · 11/27/07, 4:27 PM

For some of you WoW PvP boppers out there what do you have to lose?

More people come to your server and hit your farming grounds you have more PvP.
More people in your battle group would this not help you?
If you raided this may give you more raiders albeit possibly ones to push you over a hump?
If it somehow brought you a full guild of high end raiders would this not give you a possible guild to join?

I dont see how this wouldnt benefit you to be entirely honest in the long run if you so seek to flex your peen this is MORE FLEXING OPPURTUNITIES.

Whiteknight · 11/27/07, 4:28 PM

My point is mute

The word is "moot". Mute means unable to speak.

jamurai · 11/27/07, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Huntardish

My point is mute because my server sucks? I get ganked DAILY by multitudes of idiots like you. But you know what? Due to superior skill I kill them repeatedly until they either go away or bring in more people, at which time I go find something else to do if I can't kill them all. I will talk about my experiances all day long, just like you have, don't tell me to stop until you do also. You're a warlock just like I am, to say I have it easy is absurd to me, I may have it easy when it comes to farming, but what happens when a lock in a better gear than me rolls up, banishes my felgaurd (who I use to farm) and wrecks me? Isn't quite so easy after that, I'll just have to go somewhere else I guess or log out and go take my dogs for a walk or burn time some other way until they go away.

If a single Horde and single Alliance go for the same mob, you can promise a fight will break out? I'd agree that 9 times out of 10 it will, but promising it will isn't true. One person may be a carebear or plain lazy at that given time and not want to fight.

You don't believe people will just take turns killing mobs? Well, I guess you haven't played enough of this game, so you can just give it up.

I know you don't care what happened pre-BC, what about myself am I getting over?

You know what, I DID infact know full well I may be screwed when I transffered my hunter, do you hear me crying about it? No, I just rerolled to play on a server I truly wanted to be on since it was my only option outside of playing on a PvE server. I'm just arguing the side of allowing PvE -> PvP transfers.

I think you need to get your head out of your ass, play the game more and realize how pointless it is to ban PvE -> PvP transfers. If it comforts you any, I wouldn't transfer my hunter off a PvE server if the transfers opened up, so I wouldn't wreck your silly vision of this game anyhow.

Who are you calling an idiot? You just backed my side of this discussion fully!

"I get ganked DAILY by multitudes of idiots like you. But you know what? Due to superior skill I kill them repeatedly until they either go away or bring in more people, at which time I go find something else to do if I can't kill them all."

PvP servers take more time and effort to get things done because of people getting ganked DAILY by MULTITUDES of idiots like me. You kill them repeatedly? That takes time away from farming, doesn't it? You go find something else to do? That takes away time from your farming, doesn't it? So why in the freaking name of all that is holy should some carebare on a PvE server be allowed to do all the things in easy mode that takes me tons of extra time, and then just switch to a PvP server like it was nothing? You sir have just favored my side of the debate, thanks.

Cwealm · 11/27/07, 4:37 PM

I am currently levelling another mage, this time horde side on a pvp server (Ysondre). The server is so dead that my one world pvp situation was being attacked by an alliance warlock three times in STV, killing him each time, and then getting jumped by his level 70 paladin.

That was it. I have no doubt it is tougher on higher population servers, but my experiences so far on a pvp server have been a joke. I am more afraid of murlocs than I am the opposing faction.