That's a very good point. I remember a year ago when half of my guild on Turalyon was starting on Onyxia and the other half was doing High Warlord grind, we would wipe every time someone was tossed into the egg pits. On the first day the pvp team rejoined the raiding team someone was tossed into the egg pit and our pvp team picked up the adds and killed them before the rest of us realized what had happened. PvP does help improve reaction time and coping with random faux pas that go down. I was very impressed that day.

Think about WHY the PvP servers are all ahead in progression. PvP players are better players after 70 levels of having to be constantly aware of your surroundings. PvP players don't want you, what don't you understand? Go home PvE! Ra ra ra! *waves pitchfork*

Thing is, if guild recruitment is all that matters then they should also open up Horde <> Alliance transfers as well. Why artificially limit the choices people have to recruit based on a decision people couldn't have known about at *release* eh?

I first have to admit, I did not read the 19+ pages of posts, so please don't freak if this has been stated previously.

I think that most folks in this thread are looking at this from the wrong angle. The policy stems from RL economics, not server pops, IG economics, which playstyle is better ect ect. It is simple math and common sense that shows, that you can indeed grind a toon much faster on a PvE server than you can PvP...you can't refute that. Sure it may only be a few hours on your first toon, a couple more on your second, but what about your 30th or 150th...anyone see where I'm going with this? The policy is in place to keep "farmers" and gold sellers from rampantly exploiting an easy loophole in game mechanics. It's that simple. So will this policy ever change, nope...Blizz would be stupid to do it, and honestly the game would be worse for it...in a game with just under 10million subs...100 thousand "purchased" toons running around is not unlikely, and a really scary thought IMO.

I totally agree. The perfect guild for me is on the horde side, honestly, it's kinda silly that I'm stuck on the alliance. Don't see what the problem with faction transfers would be, aside from, obviously, major technical and logistical issues.

I am originally from Whisperwind. Dalvengyr was created from several PVE guilds. It was an experiment of Blizzard's from back when there were 1 hour queues and free transfers abound. So, several PVE servers received a FREE transfer to a PVP server, a brand new PVP server . This didn't enable people to jump over and start camping lowbies right away.

The overall result has been a dead server. Many of us transfered to get to a server with an actual population. I have leveled on Dalvengyr and Mal'Ganis and have not had any real frustration or interaction with Horde.

I have a 61 Warrior on Lightbringer My real life best friend insisted on rolling there because he knew a couple of people there. Now after 6 months of that he had to stop playing due to real life issues he had to handle. NOW I would love to be able to transfer my warrior to my main characters server, but one is PVP, main, and the warrior is obviously PVE.

My leveling experience has been the same on both servers, as well as on several smaller servers such as Hakkar, Arthas, Zangarmarsh etc.

So that is my disclosure.

My opinion:

Since the implementation of Battlegrounds, nearly all PVP on both PVP and PVE servers has been instanced. This is certainly the case currently and for the most part, since before Naxx was released. World PVP simply does not happen. Halaa is a huge disappointment as are PVP servers.

Ganking someone who is farming primal fires does not constitute world PVP and the weight the term implies. It is all that is left of world PVP, unfortunately.

Twelve year olds that have all the time in the world to camp you are what constitute PVP these days. There is no response from most people when PVP calls go out, when was the last time you seriously got your guildmates to come and engage in serious world PVP, not just because you were being camped by yet another twelve year old? people simply PVP in Battlegrounds and Arenas.

To the extreme I do not think there should be a differentiation between PVP and PVE server rule sets, at least in WoW's current incarnation. the ONLY thing the PVP rule set enables is for those said twelve year olds to gank you at an inopportune time when you are alone. Period. I am not whining or crying, I would love to have true world PVP ala Tarren Mill.

It just is not happening. And no, your 3 AM capture of Halaa with your 3 friends is not world PVP. It can and does happen on PVE servers all the time. Blizzard seems to be merging the rule sets together in areas such as Halaa where PVP is forced regardless of server rule set.

For the TLDR folks:

PVP has devolved into pure griefing.

The only world PVP currently going on is a twleve year old in BEM camping you while you do your dailies as the apathetic masses /sigh and a level 70 Tauren in SS killing the Griffen Master and any level 30's he sees.

The time has come, indeed.

I would also like to note that being on a PVP server currently I would not like to have to weigh the consequence of transferring to a PVE server and being stuck in PVE land should I feel the need or want to transfer to a PVE server.

So far the only argument has been that it takes more time to level a character on a PVP server versus a PVE server.

I contend it is negligible per my experiences as all PVP is currently instanced.

Horde to Alliance and vice versa as well as Class and Race character changes would not effect anything in game other than respective populations and I do not doubt that paid changes such as these eventually make it into the services features in the not so distant future.

Does anyone contend that it is more difficult to level as either Horde or Alliance?

Blizzard is either not ready to admit that world PVP was killed by battlegrounds or has another Halaa scheme in the works for WOTLK.

Either way I am stuck on PVP servers as I refuse to roll on a PVE server because if I were to transfer to a PVE server I would be stuck there. The leveling doesnt matter as it is the same. The only gankage I experience is running from instance to instance and doing my dailies, all of which are level 70 tasks.

Titan Guild

Actually you missed one! But, your point still stands. If the few guilds with decent progression have a hard time recruiting, imagine how it is for those who aren't as progressed.

Server maintenance combined with WoW forums seems to have brought out a few trolls to this thread. I would suggest to them to read up on the forum policies and such before repeatedly trolling threads with baseless arguments. If you feel you have valid points for or against PvE->PvP and can state them in a clear and concise manner, by all means go ahead. However, this is not the WoW forums and people come here to get away from the excessive trolling and useless drivel posted there. At least no-one has posted the "automated response" found on every WoW forum post about this subject yet.

I'd suggest that really the only thing of significance that's truly different between PVE and PVP rulesets is that the community on PVP servers includes both factions. Granted the cross-faction part of the community is often negative or hostile interaction. But it's actually interaction.

On PVE ruleset servers, opposing factions may as well be on different servers for all the interaction that goes on.
Back in the old days before battlegroups, there was some cross-faction PVE community by virtue of the fact that you'd always face the same folk in BGs, but since the cross-server queueing, this has literally dissappeared.


To the 'just reroll' suggestions, I feel I have some relevant experience on this front. Our guild just recently recruited a horde tank reroll (we're alliance). We're an extremely motivated bunch of folk with a fair bit of T6 gear, so levelling him up has been exceptionally fast. But I should point out that by far the hardest part of levelling a new player from level 1 to effective contribution to the guild is the stuff that happens *after* lvl 70. It takes a motivated guild of 35 folk to boost the player through SSC/TK to get vials, run rep runs, complete quests and attunements. It requires the desire and motivation to run a completely ungeared toon through content to get him the gear required to be effective. And that stuff is just the bare minimum.
A reroll on a new server without a support community like this doesn't stand a chance in hell. They'd be looking at a minimum of several months just getting to the point where a guild will even look at them as anything other than a joke.



When it comes right down to it, artificially separating the player base in any way has negative consequences on recruiting for organized activity. This is the reason guild leaders for progressed PVE content have almost unanimously commented that the PVE->PVP transfer ban is horrible. I've read posts by highly respected folk in the community that if only such a transfer were allowed they'd trial a given individual. This is a serious problem because a fairly arbitrary distinction is preventing your guild or your toon from the best opportunities in the game. Ultimately the game is not about horde/alliance splits or pve/pvp server splits. It's about players and skill.


My suggestion would be the following:
- PVE->PVP server transfers are allowed. If necessary with a higher cost associated.
- PVE server ruleset changed to allow communication and grouping across faction. PVP server ruleset can remain unchanged.
- Faction transfers enabled via some in-game or out-of-game mechanism. E.g. rep grind to change allegiance or a paid 'transfer' between alliance/horde. Something. Even if it's hard (well it should probably be difficult if it's in-game).

This would completely remove the problems associated with folk being trapped on a server/ruleset/faction that is no longer productive after a significant time investment in the game. It would enable recruitment of any player in the game to any guild - as desired by the players involved. Without the unreasonable sacrifice of re-rolling.

Some of you are really, really trolling this thread hard, and it's sad, cause it's a good thread, bu the rampant troll posts are just going to get it locked.


1) The honor from killing someone in the outside world is pretty minimal, and due to how quickly it scales down, not something you can actively seek out to do as a way to farm for honor for the honor gear. (It isn't remotely time effective, plus, as soon as you kill more than one person in the same area, you're quickly going to be the one getting camped and that'll just make it even less worth the time/honor [and thus no gear]).

2) Delaying someone else from leveling doesn't help your faction at all, there's nothing in the game to actually display or compare your faction's "strength", or to compete against the opposite faction.

3) That's just griefing which sure is amusing for some people, and you can grief in pretty similar ways on PvE servers anyways.

4) Yep, this is a nice one, I'll give you that, but node competition where you actually physically encounter the person before they're briskly flying away already, is quite rare!

5) The joy you get from World PvP usually stems from knowing they're punished in some way, extensively, or when the game was new and exciting in general. I think most people will agree that due to how friendly wow is in regards to dying in the game, there's little incentive to even kill another person, because you're hardly even 'ruining their day'.

Raiders on PvE servers suffer because of jokers like the trolls that have recently started slamming this thread. It's time for Blizzard to stop listening to them.

I believe the main incentive for world pvp on a pvp server is simple: "Kill them before they kill you."

One could argue that two players of opposite faction who come across each other in the woods are better served by ignoring each other than by trying to fight. However, doing so invalidates the very existence of PvP servers. Why have PvP servers at all if everyone were to simply make a gentlemen's agreement to never attack anyone else outside of instanced combat, in the name of efficient farming?


As for the transfers themselves, the game has changed enough since release that allowing PvE -> PvP would be fine in most situations. At this point, I think it is more concerns of population balance and a hesitancy to gut PvE servers that keeps the current policy in place. If transfers are enabled, then what happens to the folks who want PvE progression but also want to remain on a PvE server because they don't like world PvP? They would have it ten times worse than the current PvE playerbase does.

Also, I find it a bit ironic that Sebudai has been used as somewhat of a posterchild for why transfers should be enabled. Seems a little like using Arnold Schwarzenegger as an example of how bad immigrants have it in the U.S. [insert text which indicates the prior sentence causes me to chuckle audibly]

Server distinctions are a relic of a much earlier incarnation of WoW. The badge of honor you get for leveling on a PvP server is also a relic, which people insist on clinging to because it's the reason they leveled PvP in the first place. It means far less than it used to, and I think it means little enough now that it's not really worth the barrier. As has been mentioned, it's silly to allow low-pop PvP -> high-pop PvP transfers while disallowing PvE->PvP, because everything "wrong" with PvE->PvP transfers can be replicated on a low-pop realm, like farming and leveling to transfer. I *really* don't see how spam-transfering could be realistically seen as abuse of the system, when it has a 3-month cooldown.

Of course, this could be invalidated in WLK. They've been saying they want to revitalize the horde vs alliance angle on things, which largely laid dormant for TBC. If it actually becomes a big deal I'll reconsider my opinion.

My apologies, I used sebudai as an example of someone I felt had more than paid any imaginable dues to the wow community, and thus arguing that he hadn't "done his time" compared to a completely new player who happened to pick a pvp server say, this afternoon, was laughable. It was an attempt to get past the bickering over "well it takes longer to level" etc to the issue.

The transfer restriction artificially undermines the core gameplay value that makes the game successful.

WoW's Premise: Your time in game in wow matters, as you can use that time to improve your character to overcome adversity

WoW's Reality: Your time in game matters, however your server choice matters more and is an inflexible, eternal, and insurmountable obstacle if you chose PvE

If you happen to be on a pve server, your time means nothing at all if you want to be on a pvp server for any reason at all. Friends, associates, internet aquaintences, a change of scenery, better lag, you name it, it doesn't matter. A far less time invested person who happened to be on a pvp server to start with, is ahead of you forever in their ability to join another group.

How can that possibly be good for the game?

Player A - 200 days played, trapped on pve forever.
Player B - 30 minutes played to get above level 10 on a pvp server, can transfer to any pvp server.

Somewhat invalidates the idea that your time matters.

You PvE carebears just don't get it - do you ? When are you going to understand that people who rolled on a PvP server are;

a) smarter
b) better looking
c) much better at the game
d) are much richer
and
e) get more of the opposite/same sex

Merely by me saying this, and that it's clearly much harder to level on a PvP server, and play on a PvP server which you, of all people would never understand, Mr. Carebear for life, *regardless* of any fancy-pants facts, arguments or discussion you might have had. I got ganked once, in STV, and was held up for 3 whole minutes. You Carebears just don't understand *THE PAIN I SUFFERED*.

Of course, I've not read this thread, nor have I read the arguments for or against either side, but by the grace of all things given to me, and my ability to type while I hold my breath, I can keep saying the same thing;

PVP is more 'leet - PvE suck noobs

and thus it will be true.

Can we just let this thread die now ? Everything intelligent about this topic has been said in the previous 16 pages (well, probably the first 12 pages, but certainly not in this post).

Im late to reply to this but seriously the only idiot would be the person who farmed for the sole purpose of bring loads of mats off a PvE server to a PvP.

Have we not covered this is utter idiocy and even if it did happen it would more then anything be abused by gold farmers more then anything. I think its obvious blizzards failures with them should not punish the whole.

BTW this is in no way relevent but anyone notice most the Pro PVP epeen side posters are warlocks or hunters? lol maybe Im wrong there but sure seems that way.

We get Xrds raids on PvE servers too btw, hell we even have some TM/SM NPC gank fests...thats your world PvP that you seem so proud and defensive of and ironically the effects of killing a quest mob whether a player is PvP flagged or otherwise is exactly the same. PvP is Arena, BG's and the odd bored level 70! On my tauren warrior on a PvP server I was on low health fighting two mobs the other night, a level 70 alliance shaman comes riding right up to me in the middle of nowhere then nukes the mobs saving my ass, this is what your world PvP has come to on many servers.

You're trying to preach this crap on a forum filled largely with Day 1/beta Players, ofc we're gonna care about such things and your utter ignorance of the reality of what went on and indeed is still going on is rather glaring. Recruitment on a PvE server is a nightmare it is that simple, I run quite a decently advanced guild on a PvE server and we've constantly had to fight attrition more than any scripted boss or any encounter in the game. The effect PvE server tag has on your ability to recruit and the available selection of players is massive, its the single biggest problem a raiding guild on a PvE server faces. And you're trying to tell me that I should've known better on the first day the servers went live in the EU how things would turn out? Who really would have thought that PvE servers would give a much poorer PvE experience...

Again you forget the fact that there are as many PvP players on PvE servers as there is on PvP ones...oh yep you're still hung up on this concept of World PvP which was killed off months ago. I've leveled and actively play on both server types, my main however is on a PvE server so even though I've done the STV thing, got my badge of honor with multiple PvP 60/70 chars I still would have to abandon any work I've done on the PvE chars and for what??? To satisfy the ego of some whiners who got CC'd in STV in the days of ZG raids?

And I personally think that your opinion of things is dated and belongs back when it was bored 60's roaming STV while waiting for their ZG raid to start. The gap between PvE server progression and PvP one all but exploded in TBC, people congregated on the same servers in order to achieve better results, even on PvE servers this sorta thing happened and thats why you see servers like Magtheridon and Kazzak compared to others like Aggamagan. It however took a total gear reset for most to take the dive and reroll or transfer, leaving behind their old characters, friends, guilds. That's a stupid price to have to pay to satisfy the ego of some 12 year old bitter about getting ganked while leveling his alt.

As for PvP progression...thats a joke on any server! World PvP was killed by Battlegrounds, Battlegrounds were killed by Arena's, Arena's were killed off by the constant abuse, win trading and utter imbalance of some class combinations especially in the 2v2/3v3 brackets. The best part ofc is PvE server, PvP server...it doesn't matter in the slightest, you still fight in mixed Battlegroups against players from both server types so the main PvP experience is exactly what you're complaining about saying it shouldn't happen.

Alright I came back since it seems the thread has gotten productive again.

- Some of you are actually in favor of being able to change factions, and classes, and races. Can someone who supports this please explain the point of selecting a character in the first place?

Don't any of you think that you should have to stick with decisions you made?


Again, the points:
1) Economy (yet to be proven, again it would be nice to gather some data on this)
2) Griefing/ganking
3) Leveling
4) Herbing/Mining
5) Farming (could be included in #4).
6) Questing

There are differences (regardless of how small your individual experiences have been). While the days of STV and TM may be in the past, the days of elemental plateau are not.


Would a similarly valid solution be to not allow ANY server transfer? Someone brought up the AQ Mount example - I don't think its fair that many on our server will never see that mount. Why? Because the person that did it transferred off our server.

Perhaps I'm just hesitant to agree with you all...the horror of an influx of complete idiots come to the server with loads of mats which would push many of our server "regulars" out of the economy using conditions beyond our control.

While many of you may be beta testers or initial release players, the majority of wow players are not (myself included). I choose to address you all, but you can not remove the majority of the population out of the picture.



Some of you are passing judgements on what you think PvP has become. PvP is what you make of it. The people with the "PvP is dead" thought process are exactly the ones I really really don't want on a server that I play on. PvP is dead if you walk by an alliance because you are busy "farming" instead of killing him. PvP is not dead if you kill the alliance and then farm as a reward for killing him.

Again, I can see the frustration from the PvE side - I just don't think PvP should be able to transfer to PvE just as PvE can't transfer to PvP (sort of the reverse of the solution many of you are in favor of)


Edit: This doesn't even begin to address the fact that many of you see opening PvE->PvP transfers as the end-all solution to the problem of low-population realms, and the amount of "good players" that are available.

To be blunt falcore - your entire post has been addressed, several times. At least try to acknowledge that the rest of the community has read and responded accordingly.


This in particular was addressed, but I'll go over it explicitly again.

The entire game is based upon the idea of improving upon previous decisions, and eventually being able to progress past obstacles that were previously insurmountable and overcome adversity.

That's what wow is selling. That's the appealing part that has helped make the game a multi-million player success.

You join a persistant world (of opportunity), and your time invested in that world matters and persists.

The idea that your world can completely die out around you, and you can be trapped there for eternity does not mesh with "persistant world (of opportunity)" much less with "your time matters and persists".

The current rule is killing the PvE high end raiding world. It may take a few iterations for it to reach whatever miniscule values you prefer to label dead in comparison to the PvP raiding world, but 5? horde pve raiding guilds in the top 50 seems dead enough for me.

So while it's an interesting absolute you propose, no I do not think you should ever "stick with the decisions you made". That way lies stagnation, entropy, and the end of all things.

The cycle, as explained all throughout this post is simple.

First - there is always a constant ebb and flow of server population. People quit the game, new people join the game. This creates vacancies in guilds. (It also has several other effects which should have their own thread vis a vis population.) What we're concerned with is _where_ the new people who would be "likely good raiders" enter the system, so that we can determine which guilds will fill their vacancies fastest and with the best selection. Those guilds will tend to succeed more than the guilds further down the ladder of incoming recruits. I'll posit that they are going to enter into the pvp server side, on established servers, and have a strong reason not to go to the pve server side. Here's my reasoning.

New player joins the game. He's reasonably analytical, does his research, and rolls on pvp server to maximize his chances of seeing high end content. He's simply maximizing the number of potential guilds he can app to. He's going to roll on an established pvp server, so that he can app to raiding guilds there and maybe save a transfer fee. If they all decline him, his reasoning is that he can then transfer to other pvp servers to app. If he's still declined, he can always transfer to (as a last horrid resort) a pve server to app.

He's not going to be discouraged by the miniscule cost of leveling on pvp. Anyone discouraged by a 15 minute corpserun isn't relevant to the raid game recruitment discussion as it stands, as there are far far more tedius things to confront in the raiding game than a bit of juvenile corpse camping. If you're discouraged by dying to a random 70 in hillsbrad...well lets say that learning top tier blizzard-tuned content is not going to be for you.

Old player, when rerolling, faces the same thought process potentially with even more reasons to go pvp.

In the end, you set up a filtered system where the high end guilds on the pvp servers get first pick at the players who can analyse a simple game and determine the best solution for winning it, then the medium guilds on pvp servers get their pick, then lastly the highest progressed guilds on pve servers. Shockingly enough the guilds that get first pick will tend to take the best of those players, remembering that those players will tend to just be better gamers to begin with. Now, the current transfer rule encourages them to all go to established pvp servers first.

It's not surprising that the pve server raiding guilds are seeing a dramatic lack of recruitment opportunities. Every time someone considers rerolling or starting fresh, if they are the sort you'd love to have in a raiding guild, they're going to analyze the game and decide that their chances are better on pvp than pve.

Now then - the players in question can eventually all abandon the pve servers. The Aniases, Failures, Sebudais etc of the world can reroll on a pvp server. There will always be some quality players on the pve servers, as friendships from outside the game etc can drag people onto that ruleset, and you also have some players who get "trapped" there that may not quit in frustration.

You'll likely never see a complete death of the PvE raiding scene. People will be stuck on the PvE servers, and forced to deal with the recruitment hell associated there with, but it's not even remotely reasonable. It's certainly not in line with the core game philosophy of wow.

There's a reason that 2 year old raiding guilds on pve servers are closing up shop, and their core members are rerolling pvp rather than "stick with their decision". It's pretty ridiculous in my humble opinion that people with 2 years invested in the game are being asked to abandon that. I have a variety of friends that have just left wow entirely rather than abandon their character and start over. They're not really that interested in hillsbrad. They don't really want to go see karazhan again.

I can't blame them. If the BB guild hadn't been there, I don't know if I'd have been willing to either. Perhaps I'd have bought a wii instead. They've logged hundreds of hours testing content that was outright broken, and helping it get tuned, and in return they're trapped forever.

So no - I don't feel that it's reasonable that my bank alt on mal'ganis can transfer to any pvp server, but my druid cannot. I don't feel that it's reasonable that my bank alt on mal'ganis can transfer to any pvp server, but sebudai's shaman cannot. Please note that I'm not even interested in transfering my druid at this point - I'm happy to be on horde and I've already adjusted to the loss of my druid. I just don't think the restriction, as stands, is reasonable. I do think it's causing damage to the game. As someone who enjoys playing wow, and has been a guild leader in the past - I try to speak up in favor of changing things that damage the game, as I realize that the long term health of the game is very important to my continuing to enjoy it.

I don't support race/class/faction changes because thats completely different from going from a PvE to PvP server. Thats discussion for a different thread.


I guess I'll go point to point.

1) While I don't claim to know everything about each servers economies, I will say that prices for the things I sold on Azgalor were lower there than they were when I transferred to Skywall. I don't really know why that was, I assume due to a lower server population. Prices on Detheroc are about average with what I see people paying on most servers for your common commodities. Point is, I believe that AH prices are much more impacted by server population/activity than whether it is PvP or PvE, I don't think this is really disputable. I can completely understand where people are coming from in saying its easier to farm things like primals on a dead PvE server then transferring to a high pop PvP with intent on making a killing selling said primals at a much inflated price. But I fail to see the extra gold being made as being worth the $25 transfer fee.

2) Griefing/ganking occurs so infrequently on the PvP servers I play on, I sometimes forget that I'm even on a PvP server. I kill people daily, I "camp" people if they follow me around while I'm farming. I don't think it takes time out of my farming, but I play for so long each day, spending a total of 1-2 hours killing people doesn't even constitute time lost to me. Dying to someone and having to ghost run to my corpse and potentially be killed again is an ever present dnger, but it occurs so infrequently that I hardly think about it. Maybe I've just accepted that as a natuaral thing having played on PvP servers for the 2 1/2 years I've put into this game. I still don't see how this is even some kind of problem for those on PvP servers who PvE "carebears" transfer to.

3) I spent maybe 9 days /played getting my hunter to level 70 on Azgalor (PvP), about 10 1/2 days getting my druid to 70 on Blackhand (PvE) and about 13 1/2 on my warlock on Detheroc (PvP). On the PvP servers, I was ganked atleast 2 times per day while leveling, I spent some time griefing lowbies that I passed as I leveled, I really don't think it added much time at all. If anything I find it odd that my first 70 was my fastest to 70.

4) Herbing/mining...If anything, its easier to get nodes on a PvP server since you can kill someone trying to ninja your shit, a convinience not allowed to those on PvE servers unless the intended prey is flagged (Not likely).

5) Farming, I have the same thoughts on this as for herb/mine nodes. Sure, having to fight for your mobs may add a bit of time to your farming, but honestly, how much time does it really add unless the person is utterly relentless in their pursuit of PvP? I think the most I've ever had to kill one person before they realized it was futile to even bother trying to start a fight with me at half health when I'm at full was 8 times. After that, he rezzed up and flew away because he just couldn't win and it was pointless, pointless for both of us even, as I was getting maybe 2 honor from him (Way to reward me, Blizz).

6) This is the only thing that ever irked me on PvP servers, and its not even the killing of a quest mob, but the killing of an NPC I need to chat with to turn my quest(s) in at. And this occurs on PvE servers also, so the point is null anyhow.



Not allowed ANY transfers would just open a door of problems Blizzard tried closing when they first opened up paid transfers.

I highly doubt this would happen in such numbers (If at all?) to ruin your economy in any such manner.

If anything, your AH "regulars" (I would like to consider myself one of those people on my server, atleast when it comes to dealing in bulk Scryer items/primals/netherweave) are more likely to "ruin" your economy by undercutting each other to the point of oblivion, oversaturating the market themselves (I've done this! Arcane Tome prices record low after I farmed them for a month solid).

Something else I just thought of on this, lets say 5 people farmed up 100x of each primal "easily" on a PvE server, then came to your PvP to sell them, assuming they sold them for the same market price (Why would they sell for less? They got these primals really easily right?). How would this affect overall economy prices? The only way it would dip prices is if they severly undercut the normal sellers. And even if they did undercut the normal sellers, the smart thing for those sellers to do would be buy up the cheapers ones and resell them for the market norm. Assuming every server has AH hounds like myself (And a few others on my server I could list...), cheapers than normal items will be bought up very quickly and resold at the markey norm.

I was not playing at release, but started when the game was still in low gears gaining momentum to what it is now, and I personally think that the majority of the players of this game are not concerned with AH economies for items level 70's deal with primarily, because the majority of the players of this game are somewhere stuck in a rut between 50 and 65, only playing maybe 10 hours a week doing some 5 mans or quests with friends and couldn't give two shits about whether Joe Raider can transfer between PvE and PvP realms, because Johnny Average, isn't even fully aware of the minor differences in PvP and PvE realms.



I love PvP, hence why I roll on a PvP realm, and why I was pretty bummed after what seemed like a very solid guild (And was very solid for the time I raided with them before burnout set in) on a PvE realm and had no other option other than throwing away 150 days of playtime on my hunter.

Due to this lack of transfer options, I'm on the verge of just selling him because he's of no use to me, it's not fun to play on him on his realm, theres no point in farming on him because I have about 2k gold on him (Which I earned supposedly the "hard" way on a PvP server).

That would somewhat solve this, but people would still bitch from lack of transfer/recruitment options like they do now.



Nothing is ever the end-all solution, this would be a very good solution to a fairly large issue amongst players right now.

Man, I just wasted half my HTML class typing this. Curse you EJ forums and promoting articulate, well thought out responses!

[Edit] Typo in my last sentence, oh the irony.

In my experience, you would be pretty lonely if you got rid of all the people who don't engage in world PvP. I've got three lvl 70s and I had five lvl 60s when it was the lvl cap, all on PvP realms. A vast majority of people won't pick a fight with me, and I never start fights myself. If I feel pissed or if I'm bored I will retaliate the few ganks I do experience though, and I certainly jump people who I know will gank me even if I leave them be, and this is how most players seem to operate. You might experience some world PvP because you always engage others, and you build a rep as an outdoor ganker, which will cause people to start fights with you because they know you will jump them anyway, while they would leave people like myself alone. The people with the same mindset as you, or in other words, the true hardcore PvPers, are in my experience few and far inbetween

Opening PvE-> PvP might add more "carebears" to your realm, but honestly I don't think you will notice any difference whatsoever. The miniscule advantage players who level on a PvE realm has is next to nothing. During all my leveling in this game I would be hard pressed to think that I spent any more than one day /played running to my corpse due to being ganked in the outdoors while leveling, with 200+ days played on all my chars combined, that's not really a breathtaking amount of time. If I'm generous I can add another day or two /played due to being ganked/camped at lvl cap which is at least 80% raid portal ganking. Even carebears help out in these fights, all it takes is one to start and everyone else will help. If you remove the odd few people who trigger the fights from the summoning stones, I'm sure there would be much less instance portal ganking.

You probably lost more time than me due to being ganked, but I'm fairly sure that's because you pick fights with others, and they bite back. The reality is that if you are a carebear playing on a PvP server, you will probably not notice much of a difference from a PvE realm, at least in my experience. And before you yell 'lalz roll pvp then caerbaer!1', the reason why all these carebears play on PvP servers has been explained time and time again in this very thread: PvE realms sucks ass both for hardcore PvPers and PvEers alike. No one who plays this game remotely seriously wants to play on a PvE realm, which is the primary reason why you have carebears all over the PvP realms. Allowing PvE->PvP transfers wont affect dick for you, but it will help an assload of people who are stuck on the PvE shitfest and does not want to throw their 100-300 days played in the toilet and piss on it just because of a small but infinitely stupid obstacle.

Ya know, WoW forums are so much easier. A simple "QQ nub" or "your armory sucks" usually is sufficient to "pwn" someone in an argument. You all require thought and actual arguments! Damn you!

I'll give it to ya, all great responses which I will spare you me going point to point with you all.

To the quote above - The idea is that if someone level'ed a mage, and then realized that a warlock was the "better choice", why not be able to turn into a warlock?

- The idea that "this has been discussed earlier in this thread" - I can link you forum threads that have covered 99% of the discussions on these forums. Not much is new, just different people's opinions is all. Same conclusions can be drawn by different justifications!


-I do not disagree with any of you that the differences in PvP vs PvE is pretty small in terms of how I play and how others (like most of you here) play. However, I do not deny the fact that there ARE differences which favor a PvE server.


Ok, new point time (at least for me)
1) Don't you all think that opening PvE -> PvP transfers would most likely destroy PvE servers? Would you be more in favor of just making all servers PvP servers with perhaps a very few exceptions? Give players left on the few PvE servers the 1-time chance of transferring to a PvP server?


2) Overcrowding (again, not sure if this was covered). I'm not sure on exact numbers, but to my (ignorant) thoughts, I think there are many more PvE servers than PvP. If that is the case, these PvP servers would become overcrowded. Only twice have I ever had a queue to login to my server, and it was for about 10 seconds. Queue'ing for BGs rarely takes over 15 minutes at most! I don't care for a bunch of people from any server (pvp or pve) to come over en'masse to ours and clog up the queues. This is why I would think my first point would be a better solution.


3) Most importantly, I want more PvP. I'm all down for people coming to our server (as long as it doesn't get overcrowded as mentioned in #2). I want people on PvP servers who won't run away when you attack, who will call in reinforcements if needed, and who won't just stand there as you kill them.

One can only dream I suppose!


/cheer

Your first point: No, I don't think making all servers PvP is the solution either. I *prefer* the PvE ruleset. I would prefer to stay within it. The problem is that sometimes other things would outweigh the PvE ruleset - for example, if I found the perfect guild to transfer to, perfect raid times, open spot, people I got along with, etc, and they were on PvP, if it was an option, I'd overlook the server ruleset to gain all those other things, just as you might accept a slightly non-ideal schedule if everything else works out for you.

If you could find the ideal guild on PvE, I suspect there's a number of players who would want to stay on that ruleset. The problem is that the selection of high end guilds (and, similarly, high end players) is artificially restricted for both PvE and PvP players, due to the desire not to lose your PvP flag for those originating on PvP servers, and the complete inability to go PvE->PvP.

Your second point: BGs are not restricted to PvP servers only, so I don't see where you're going with that. You share your BG queue with PvE, PvP, RP, and RP-PvP servers - opening up transfers isn't going to change your queue times.