Resubbing and starting WoW again

Pyros · 10/19/07, 8:53 AM

First, don't misundertsand the title, it's not a "whoohoo guys I'm back" kind of thread.
What I'd like to discuss is how to start wow again at this point of time, and what do people who are still playing it think should be done to get going again.

So, some little backup. I've been playing wow since early beta, I leveled a ton of characters, I played warlock/hunter/prot war/priest in high end raiding up to naxx(stopped at the frost dragon guy tho, picking up herbs 6hours a day was getting damn boring), then played mostly pvp at BC release with a BE paladin, and quit some time before 2.1 patch.
What I plan to do currently would be a bit of raiding, nothing too hardcore, but who knows since I have plenty of time, and I guess some pvp on the side too. I want to level a druid which is one of the 2classes I never really tried and because it offers enough flexibility in case I don't feel like healing anymore without having to reroll.

Ok the issues are as follow:

1) The server choice.
I have to choose a server pretty randomly, since everyone I knew back when I played also quit around the same period or before. I checked the wowjutsu website to find out which server was lively based on the number of guild that had "green+" ranking, which I think is everyone in SSC/TK. Would you say it's better to choose a more peaceful server that might not be as advanced overall(no guild in the top20) or should I just go for one of the full server everyone migrates to which hold the big names(nihilum, forte, whatever else I don't really know the others). I usually played on full servers before, and while lag at time was an issue, I liked being able to find groups at random hours and such, which I doubt you can find on medium pop servers.

2) Char developement.
At this point of time, how hard would it be to catch up enough to join a raiding guild that's not too far advanced? I read some recruiting boards, and everyone seem to accept people that have T4 or T5 gear at least, but I don't see any that don't have min gear reqs. How am I supposed to gear up in karazhan/mag/what's-his-name-ogre-king, are these puggable or something, or the guilds that run them aren't even worth having websites for? Can I entirely skip those and just suck up useless loot for a few weeks in SSC/TK like people did back in the MC days in early AQ? I mean, do guilds do that at all, or would it be like running MC when you were in naxx before?

The alternatives are arena gear/rep rewards/crafting, did they add new stuff to these(well arena I know but I mean the others) to catch up with gear progression, or would spending a week gathering the items would only get me to a heroic instance level like it used to, which would be pointless for raiding?

So to sum it up, what do you think of starting wow from scratch right now(playing my old chars would not help, most are still 60, the only 70 is a hunter and it only has blues). How hard would it be and how long would it take from 70 to be able to raid at least SSC/TK.

I haven't started leveling yet, I'm pretty much waiting for 2.3, and getting in the right mindset to level yet another char(should be 15th or so now). I can play all day most days, so time wouldn't be an issue, and leveling is not really an issue either, I lvled my BE paladin in less than 2weeks, with the 2.3 changes and the fact I won't play a crappy leveling class, I think I could lvl the druid in a week. My main concern atm is, would it be worthwhile, or would it just be better to wait for the next expansion to even the grounds again.

Amonra · 10/19/07, 9:24 AM

It really isnt that hard to catch up with the raiders these days. Unlike pre TBC, raiding gear isn't that much of a step up in quality compared to gear obtainable by other means.

The first place to get gear is from levelling up. The quest rewards give a decent starting level for gear, not quite raid quality but a good base level. The next places to get gear from are:

- tradeskills. particularly tailoring for cloth classes as these items are comparable to all but the very best raiding loot.
- faction rewards. Again some very good stuff here and faction is mainly gained from running the dungeons. Pretty easy to get revered with them all, a bit more work to get exalted (typically about 10 runs from revered to exalted).
- heroic badge rewards. A few very good items here to plug gaps which won't get replaced until the very top tier raiding (not even then for some). these rewards are about to get even better with 2.3.
- heroic dungeon loot drops. Requires a bit of luck to get the drops you need, but some of the items are very comparable to the lower tier raiding rewards.

So before you get outside 5 man groups you can have some very good gear, certainly good enough to start raiding SSC/TK if you are a quality player.

You can supplement this gear with Karazhan drops (and probably soon AZ drops) which again is pretty comparable to raiding loot for certain items. Karazhan is definitely puggable, although a better bet would be to try and help out a guild run which needs extra players. If you are a good player then they should be happy to have you.

Consumables are very much less of a problem these days. I cherry pick the easiest daily quests and in just half an hour a day I have more than enough money to raid 4 days/week with full consumables.

In summary, if you put in the work then in a short space of time there is really no reason why you cant get up to a level where SSC/TK guilds would want to have you - probably a couple of weeks after hitting L70 if you really put in the effort. The expansion is still probably a long way off at this point.

As for server choice, I guess it is up to you. PvP vs PvE depends on your personal preference. However I would point out that it will probably be easier to find a suitable guild on a PvP server, plus you have the option of moving to PvE if you want. There is no way to move from PvE to PvP. That said, if you really hate a PvP server (I do personally) then its no disaster going for PvE.

My preference would be very much to go for a high population server. You just have so many more options that way with guilds in all difficulties on raiding and I don't think lag is likely to be much of an issue. Again medium pop isn't a disaster but just offers less flexibility, although you can always transfer servers if necssary. I would avoid low pop servers like the plague.

Finally in terms of class choice, my advice would really be to pick what you like playing. Personally I think there is nothing worse than playing a class you don't really like just to get in a raid.

That said, some classes are more desirable than others. Horde paladins and alliance shamans are still somewhat short on supply so would improve your chances of getting into a good raiding guild. As always healers are generally in higher demand than dps classes. Druid is certainly no bad choice since they can easily switch between healing and tanking roles and perform both very strongly at the raid level (their dps abilities being really too weak to justify a raid place on their own merit).

snape · 10/19/07, 9:28 AM

I seriously suggest getting into a "backwater / middle of the road" server if your intent is to catch up to raiders. The smaller you make the gap between yourself and the average endgame player on your server, the easier your time will be.

Roywyn · 10/19/07, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pyros

2) Char developement.
At this point of time, how hard would it be to catch up enough to join a raiding guild that's not too far advanced? I read some recruiting boards, and everyone seem to accept people that have T4 or T5 gear at least, but I don't see any that don't have min gear reqs. How am I supposed to gear up in karazhan/mag/what's-his-name-ogre-king, are these puggable or something, or the guilds that run them aren't even worth having websites for? Can I entirely skip those and just suck up useless loot for a few weeks in SSC/TK like people did back in the MC days in early AQ? I mean, do guilds do that at all, or would it be like running MC when you were in naxx before?

The alternatives are arena gear/rep rewards/crafting, did they add new stuff to these(well arena I know but I mean the others) to catch up with gear progression, or would spending a week gathering the items would only get me to a heroic instance level like it used to, which would be pointless for raiding?

We removed SSC and TK from our regular raiding schedule after 2 Kael'thas kills I think. We went back quite often to attune people who were on vacation during the first fills and new trialists. But basically, we stopped SSC/TK right after getting into HS/BT.
I can't speak for other guilds, but I think quite a few dropped T5 instances rather fast for more time to progress in T6 zones.

Most of our recent recruits were server transfers and people from disbanded raid groups.
If you don't have a healthy mix of T4 and maybe some T5 level gear, you need to find really really strong reasons for someone to consider your application. To make you stand out.
Knowing people helps a lot (also getting into some friends'/alts' Karazhan), but you make a fresh start.

Alliance Restoration Shaman are highly sought after and can get you in even with lower gear given that you have a lot of experience. Not sure about druid demand.

Getting into a guild in SSC/TK is considerably easier. Having good level 70 blues, an epic reputation/arena weapon, maybe something crafted too and you're set to go. Former raiding experience makes a large difference.
And T5 guilds can trial you anytime - T6 guilds need to schedule an extra attunement just to trial you.

For crafting - leatherworking is generally considered rather weak compared to others for BoP gear. I see quite a few druids with the the cloth healing set though (Primal Mooncloth).

Nordx · 10/19/07, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by snape

I seriously suggest getting into a "backwater / middle of the road" server if your intent is to catch up to raiders. The smaller you make the gap between yourself and the average endgame player on your server, the easier your time will be.

That is terrible advice for anyone imo. The difference between "backwater" servers and much more populated or advanced servers is the number of average raiders, not the average itself. Instead of 1 Gruul/SSC/TK guild on each faction you have 5 such guilds. Sure the better servers have more BT clearing guilds but there's also more middle of the road guilds. A lot more opportunities to find a guild and raid. As for heroics and Kara, on a very healthy and large realm you have very little trouble finding groups for these, where as on a crap realm there is just not enough players to be able to run what you want when you want it all the time.

Axanor · 10/19/07, 11:13 AM

Alliance Shaman is currently the most underplayed Class/Faction combo in the game, and I'd second the recommendation if you really want to have the best chance to catch up with the endgame content.

That is terrible advice for anyone imo. The difference between "backwater" servers and much more populated or advanced servers is the number of average raiders, not the average itself. Instead of 1 Gruul/SSC/TK guild on each faction you have 5 such guilds. Sure the better servers have more BT clearing guilds but there's also more middle of the road guilds. A lot more opportunities to find a guild and raid. As for heroics and Kara, on a very healthy and large realm you have very little trouble finding groups for these, where as on a crap realm there is just not enough players to be able to run what you want when you want it all the time.

Absolutely. I moved to Area 52 from Kargath, and its a mammoth difference having nearly 4k 70s as opposed to just over 2k. It's easier to find groups, app to guilds, and a far better play experience all around. Warcraftrealms is a good resource. you just have to tweak the stats page to look at just 70s.

Pyros · 10/19/07, 12:24 PM

Thanks for the answers, I was just disheartened to see the gear reqs on most application forms I checked, it still seems weird to me to ask for T5 gear when you're still on T5 content, given that T5 isn't the max currently(it makes sense to ask for T6 gear for a T6 guild tho).

I forgot to say that I was pretty set on the class/faction, I'm definitely not playing a shaman(had one, hated it, went back months later after the talent changes pre BC, and still hated it ^^) and between horde and alliance, I think I like horde better, even if that implies playing a tauren.

I'm happy to hear the consumables change they were preparing in 2.1 before I quit actually went well, I have some pretty bad memories of main tanking naxx and having to farm all day for repairs and potions(well the guild was helping, but since I was the only tank who had free time, I felt responsible of my own stuff so the other tanks could benefit from the guild more and having overall higher raid buffs), and this is pretty much the last time I raided seriously.

I guess if I wait a bit for Zul'aman, I'll have another source of decent gear, I haven't looked into it, but if it's another ZG, I remember ZG helped gearing new recruits a lot since it wasn't random crap MC(oh yay ANOTHER warlock full set, in case you want different enchants. Bindings? Never heard of those).

Oh just a question, anyone playing on a very full server that still seldomly have queues and such? Do they still lag, I remember around naxx my server was crappy, but after that I don't remember having any lag, maybe because people left, and I think they changed servers at some point. Any of you still experiences random lag during prime time, such as spell delay or even crashes? Might choose a server that's full but not too full if they still have those kind of issues.

MeCh · 10/19/07, 12:26 PM

You could wait until 2.3, where badge gear is more less equiv to t5.

Vectivus · 10/19/07, 12:47 PM

T5-level guilds asking for T5-level gear might be living in a dream world - however, given the scaling present in the raid-level content, don't expect to jump into a mid-SSC/TK guild with nothing but your level 70 blues and a grin.

My guild is currently 3/6 SSC and 2/4 TK, and we expect to be working on Vashj/Kael by the end of the month. We won't even give an applicant wearing less than moderate-to-full Karazhan gear a reasonable shot any more - they simply can't keep up on this level of content.

The advice from above was good, too - 2.3 will help you to integrate, if you're willing to put the time in. The badge rewards and ZA drops are of T5 quality (and, in many cases, actually better than their T5 equivalents). On the other hand, once 2.3 lands, gear expectations will go up on the part of most raiding guilds, since such high quality gear is so easily accessible.

Metrosexuelf · 10/19/07, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Pyros

At this point of time, how hard would it be to catch up enough to join a raiding guild that's not too far advanced?

Obviously it depends on the class. Offensive casters are a lot easier due to tailoring. However, since you mentioned druid I will say I think that would be a lot harder. If you went feral as an offtank you could probably get away with the Season 1 Gladiator gear however that is still going to take time to farm 70k+ honor. Also, despite your previous raid experience, I'm going to assume an SSC/TK guild is going to want to see you have some idea of what you are doing with the current class you are playing. Speed leveling to 70 and quickly farming gear isn't the best evidence of that.

2.3 is probably a month away. In terms of how fast you can level... you said you did your paladin in two weeks. Is that two weeks of calendar time? That seems insanely fast if you are talking about straight up solo leveling without outside assistance. Even then it will take another month or so to gear up your 70 in order to be viable for SSC/TK. You aren't going to be able to walk into a Zul'Aman raid with a handful of blue 5 man instance drops and quest rewards.

Unfortunately we don't know what the raiding landscape will look like 2-3 months from now, especially with the advent of Zul'Aman and the (possibly) continued dumbing down of 25 man instances. It is entirely possible for them to drop the BT/Hyjal attunement requirements in that time. If that happens SSC/TK will be largely abandoned and you would need 200+ heroic badges for enough good feral gear to be viable in Tier 6 instances.

All of that said, I doubt we will see the beta for WotLK for another 6-8 months. There is still plenty of time left to enjoy TBC but you are still going to face a bit of an uphill battle as far as getting into a solid raiding guild.

Nezralix · 10/19/07, 1:26 PM

You're completely out of luck unless you're willing to join a blue-geared guild just starting Karazhan, because the rest probably don't want you, even if they have T4/5 players who consistently perform worse than you would in blues. Even in that case, you're likely going to have to contend with the fact that a lot of guilds have an A-team kara group that you won't get invites for, a B-team that you *might* get invites for but isn't very successful, and then a C-team that kills three bosses and falls apart, but locks you out of participating in the A- or B-team in the event of an empty spot. So it's going to take awhile, because not only do the B- and C-team not kill things very quickly, but they also have people who actually need the loot before you.

Heroic badges are certainly not the answer. You're shit out of luck unless you know a competent tank, because not only are competent tanks in short supply to begin with, but most of them are occupied with their guilds and/or not interested in the least with tanking a pug heroic. At least if my server is anything like yours, then if you have 4 hours per weeknight to devote to the game, you'll be doing one heroic per night and getting 3-5 badges. At that rate, you'll be looking at 2-3 weeks per raid-quality armor item. The rewards for farming badges of justice will be pretty lucrative for some people, but without a circle of competent and/or geared friends, it won't be lucrative for you. Even with a guild that clears Karazhan *and* actually lets you come along, you'll be barely up to par for SSC/TK guild recruitment by the time the next expansion comes out.

And that's really the upshot here. If you start when 2.3 comes out, then you'll be able to get a couple of new characters up to 70 by the time the expansion rolls around, and then you'll hopefully be able to wrangle a better position for yourself after the gear normalization. But in the meantime, you'll almost certainly be obstructed by some combination of snobbery and in-group behavior.

Vectivus · 10/19/07, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

You're completely out of luck unless you're willing to join a blue-geared guild just starting Karazhan, because the rest probably don't want you, even if they have T4/5 players who consistently perform worse than you would in blues. Even in that case, you're likely going to have to contend with the fact that a lot of guilds have an A-team kara group that you won't get invites for, a B-team that you *might* get invites for but isn't very successful, and then a C-team that kills three bosses and falls apart, but locks you out of participating in the A- or B-team in the event of an empty spot. So it's going to take awhile, because not only do the B- and C-team not kill things very quickly, but they also have people who actually need the loot before you.

Heroic badges are certainly not the answer. You're shit out of luck unless you know a competent tank, because not only are competent tanks in short supply to begin with, but most of them are occupied with their guilds and/or not interested in the least with tanking a pug heroic. At least if my server is anything like yours, then if you have 4 hours per weeknight to devote to the game, you'll be doing one heroic per night and getting 3-5 badges. At that rate, you'll be looking at 2-3 weeks per raid-quality armor item. The rewards for farming badges of justice will be pretty lucrative for some people, but without a circle of competent and/or geared friends, it won't be lucrative for you. Even with a guild that clears Karazhan *and* actually lets you come along, you'll be barely up to par for SSC/TK guild recruitment by the time the next expansion comes out.

And that's really the upshot here. If you start when 2.3 comes out, then you'll be able to get a couple of new characters up to 70 by the time the expansion rolls around, and then you'll hopefully be able to wrangle a better position for yourself after the gear normalization. But in the meantime, you'll almost certainly be obstructed by some combination of snobbery and in-group behavior.

I think you may be jaded, bitter about a rejected guild application, or perhaps both.

As the GM of a raiding guild in mid-tier 5 content, we continue to pick up applicants of a variety of classes (Druids included) on a fairly regular basis. Burnout, boredom, vacations, etc. don't stop just because we hit our theoretical roster cap. Gear is an issue, but we can put an applicant in full tier 4 in two weeks' time if they're capable.

Don't discourage people from trying to get back into the raiding scene. It's entirely possible.

Kigale · 10/19/07, 1:37 PM

I am on a "back water" server. My guild is second in progression on the server and are only at 3/6 SSC and 1/4 TK. We are always on the look out for skilled players. The talent pool on our server is fairly shallow. If my server is at all similar to other low pop servers there are some advantages and disadvantages to coming to such a server. If you are in fact a skilled player you will be able to get into any guild you'd wish. Trouble is, there are only 2 horde guilds in T5 content. If for one reason or another you didn't fit in with either you'd be stuck in Karazhan for the foreseeable future.
On a high population server there are more guilds to choose from, but there are also more players to recruit. So a T5 guild can be much more selective about who they recruit. You might still end up spending a lot of time in Karazhan trying to distinguish yourself from other applicants.
2.3 will help though. The new heroic gear will take a fair amount of time to get but it is fairly good quality (not sure about the druid stuff). ZA will be a mixed blessing. I think many advanced guilds will get in and out of there and back to 25 mans fairly quickly. So you might be better off applying to a guild that current farms Karazhan but doesn't have the numbers to go into 25 mans. You can help them run ZA while building your reputation with the more advanced guilds. Then if the time comes where you have outgrown the smaller guild they will understand if you decide to leave and join a bigger one. Or even better, you can help the guild recruit and progress through 25 mans. That way you can see all the the content for yourself and not have to take handouts from guilds that have already made it over the learning curve.

Keline · 10/19/07, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by snape

I seriously suggest getting into a "backwater / middle of the road" server if your intent is to catch up to raiders. The smaller you make the gap between yourself and the average endgame player on your server, the easier your time will be.

This is very poor advice. The smaller/backwater the server, the fewer options you have. If you want to raid, "recommended" on server select means "It's recommended you play somewhere else" because there will be most likely ONE guild you could join. Also, on these servers the best guild is usually impossible to get into. Find an ancient server that is marked FULL and hop in, you'll have a dozen guilds to chose from that run Karazhan.

Nezralix · 10/19/07, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vectivus

I think you may be jaded, bitter about a rejected guild application, or perhaps both.

As the GM of a raiding guild in mid-tier 5 content, we continue to pick up applicants of a variety of classes (Druids included) on a fairly regular basis. Burnout, boredom, vacations, etc. don't stop just because we hit our theoretical roster cap. Gear is an issue, but we can put an applicant in full tier 4 in two weeks' time if they're capable.

Don't discourage people from trying to get back into the raiding scene. It's entirely possible.

Didn't you just say that you don't bother with apps that don't have nearly full Karazhan gear?