There was a blue post on the WoW Forums that state it is intentional. I think it's a lousy change honestly. It just means even more severely undergeared players will be queueing themselves up for heroics.
I was revered with all but three factions by the time I got all the gear I needed to start raiding and perhaps 2-3 runs from revered with Thrallmar, Lower City, and the Sha'tar by then. Heroics really require superior gear to be fun - otherwise they're one big death fest. Trying to imagine tank in half greens at Quagmirran (probably butchered the spelling of that name)...
Considering there are only 5 factions, and nobody ever does Keepers of Time heroics, you're basically saying you were only revered with one faction, Cenarion Expedition. Ironically enough, you can hit revered entirely from questing, and even if you don't turn in any plant parts, you'll only be 1-2 Steamvault runs from revered (I recently hit revered on an alt I've been playing after a single Steamvault run, turning in only the plant parts I got while leveling in Zangarmarsh). Lower City is honestly the only instance which requires substantial runs to hit revered with, the other ones are fairly easy from questing.
If you're capable of running heroics before you're revered with any factions, by all means I think you should be able to. The heroic keying system was kind of stupid before. There's no real reason to think that because someone did a half dozen Shadow Labyrinth runs, they're suddenly ready for Heroic Sethekk Halls or whatever.
The heroic keying system was kind of stupid before. There's no real reason to think that because someone did a half dozen Shadow Labyrinth runs, they're suddenly ready for Heroic Sethekk Halls or whatever.
Or better yet, that I'm ready for heroic Old Hillsbrad because I spent 2 hours wiping in Black Morass at level 68 (true story).
I've gotten 5x revered on two characters already, it's relief I won't have to do so a 3rd, 4th, 5th time etc.
Lower City is honestly the only instance which requires substantial runs to hit revered with, the other ones are fairly easy from questing.
No, Thrallmar is a PITA as well. I welcome this change. People in crap gear will quickly see that they are not yet ready and downgrade to normal instances until they are. Some don't have to have 1 point in reputation to be heroic ready with crafted gear. Others may have only bothered with the rep for the factions to get Kara attuned.
EDIT: Kara, not ZA...lol 2.3 hurry up!
Last edited by Benegesserit : 10/22/07 at 5:54 PM.
Like it was said before, thrallmar isn't so bad if you cap your rep from grinding mobs in front of hellfire citadel and running the low isntances before doing the quests in the zone. The problem is, when you enter outlands for the first time, your gear suddenly becomes obsolete, and you're very tempted to run some quests for the uber rewards. A green quest reward 2h weap in winterspring or EP is like what, 45dps while a green in thrallmar is like 65(I don't remember exactly and too lazy to check wowhead).
Running the instances with no outland gear is specifically difficult, but you could try buying AH greens to get a starting set.
Definitely good change imo, I only hope it will make it in before I hit revered in all factions, which I doubt, the guild bank system doesn't look like quite near ready yet.
I had no problem personally with the old Heroic requirements, I went through all the quests for each reputation and then ran the corresponding instances a handful of times each to hit revered.
I thought a dev at Blizzcon mentioned a different system for meeting Heroic requirements: flagging on an account basis instead of a character basis. Once you do all the work on your main, you can bring any of your alts. Seems like a good system to me.
Last edited by Fold : 10/22/07 at 6:10 PM.
Reason: typo
You might feel differently if you find yourself in a group with some of them.
So don't run heroics with random people you don't know. At the very least you should have a friends list and know who you trust for a hard 5-man and who you don't. Even when I wasn't in a large guild I still had a decent pool of non-sucking people to draw from for instance runs.
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
I think the heroic key rep change is a good change to make at this point in time.
I think requiring Revered rep was the right way for it to work when Burning Crusade was initially released. It paced things out, made sure people did some runs for gear and to get some knowledge of the instances, and of course heroics were harder then.
But now, people are levelling alts, they know the instances inside-out from prior runs on their mains, and running normal mode to gain rep is just a pain since you can be sure that none of your friends want to run non-heroics, unless by lucky chance they've got an alt at the same point as yours.
Obligatory self-interest disclosure: my alt priest went from solo levelling straight into Kara via the wonders of tailoring and PvP epics, and currently is almost fully epic'd out at that level - but does not have even one heroic key. Honored with all five factions, and absolutely zero desire to run a normal mode instance. This change is a delight, to me.
Like it was said before, thrallmar isn't so bad if you cap your rep from grinding mobs in front of hellfire citadel and running the low isntances before doing the quests in the zone. The problem is, when you enter outlands for the first time, your gear suddenly becomes obsolete, and you're very tempted to run some quests for the uber rewards.
The much bigger problem is that when you first zone into Outlands, the natural flow of the content is to do outdoor quests first and then progress to the 5-mans after you've spent some time running around HFP. Not only is the gear progression set up this way, the plot progression is set up this way is well. 98% of people zoning into Outland have no clue that they "should" do the dungeons first.
What this argument amounts to is "Thrallmar/HH rep is just fine so long as you approach the content in a completely back-asswards manner."
My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.
The heroic key change is fine in theory and probably highly annoying in practice. Much like how it's difficult to get a Ramparts group these days that isn't full of level 58s, heroic PUGs are going to the last refuge of people in full Nagrand quest greens. Which is sort of ok -- they're PUGs -- but also a pain a lot of the time.
It seems Blizzard starts to finally give in to the idea of limited server queue:
The best solution for Blizzard and it's users is a server grace period (250ms?) that will chain cast your spell if you happen to click too early. If the penalty for clicking too early is *only latency*, anybody with less than 100ms latency would be better off spam casting as you can get your avg down time between casts lower than *safely* clicking after your elapsed cast time. The servers are going to get flooded with Mages and Locks on sub 100ms connections trying to boost their DPS.
Directly under that response by Slouken:
Yes, this is actually what we're going to be evaluating for the next test realm update.
* Creature AI has been changed to no longer prioritize attacking unfeared targets over feared targets.
This removes a lot of the need for stance dancing/fear ward on Fear based fights unless I'm misunderstanding.
Sure, Nightbane possibly turning towards the raid to follow a feared Druid, and doing his breath cone could still be dangerous, but it's not as bad as it currently is.
Yeah, that one came right out of left field. It really, really makes the fear resist talents much more interesting indeed and definitely makes feral and pally tanking much more viable. No, not for every fight but indeed for many.
* Creature AI has been changed to no longer prioritize attacking unfeared targets over feared targets.
This removes a lot of the need for stance dancing/fear ward on Fear based fights unless I'm misunderstanding.
Sure, Nightbane possibly turning towards the raid to follow a feared Druid, and doing his breath cone could still be dangerous, but it's not as bad as it currently is.
This doesn't really matter too much in the raid game though as much as some would think. Not breaking the fear as the tank on Archimonde will still be a killer. Feared through doomfires with 0 avoidance to his melees and outranging healers probably? Yeah, not fun.
If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh.
This doesn't really matter too much in the raid game though as much as some would think. Not breaking the fear as the tank on Archimonde will still be a killer. Feared through doomfires with 0 avoidance to his melees and outranging healers probably? Yeah, not fun.
Actually if you have a shaman in the group it would probably be fine, but yeah full duration fears would still suck.
A mob on a feared tank is still bad, but usually not as bad as a mob on an unfeared healer. I remember when all our priests chose wand spec over unbreakable will, purely because they knew UW would end with them a thin, wet mess on the floor.
Do fears drop your avoidance to 0? I'm well aware that stun/incapacitate/sleep do, because (theoretically) your character is unable to move and therefore unable to react to incoming attacks. I've never been sure if fear, confuse, or polymorph had the same effect since all of those still leave you somewhat mobile and responsive, if not completely in-control. Of course most of the time you're running away from the mob at least part of the fear, which drops your avoidance to 0 anyways.
Actually if you have a shaman in the group it would probably be fine, but yeah full duration fears would still suck.
If by 'Shaman' you mean 'Dwarf Priest'. Tremor totem has failed me more times than you could possible imagine. Thank God all priest are getting fear ward soon.
I don't know about the fear/avoidance thing now that you mention, I just figured it is one of the things that come with it, since you most likely have your back to the mob.
If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh.
I don't know about the fear/avoidance thing now that you mention, I just figured it is one of the things that come with it, since you most likely have your back to the mob.
Minor nitpick: Atleast you can still be missed, even with your back to the mob or otherwise incapacitated.
Same effect as a [Super Rejuvenation Potion] for only 2 Ragveil. Anyone know what the "other side effects" are?
If I were to guess, I'd think it would be similar to the effects you get with the Engineering teleporters. If it was more negative than that, I would assume they would list it in the tooltip for clarity's sake.
This doesn't really matter too much in the raid game though as much as some would think. Not breaking the fear as the tank on Archimonde will still be a killer. Feared through doomfires with 0 avoidance to his melees and outranging healers probably? Yeah, not fun.
Actually, most mob fears break on the first hit on the mob's current target, much like Intimidating Shout. I've always noticed this in Shadow Lab and on Nightbane, for instance.
My main point that should have been taken is this: You aren't supposed to get feared in the first place and if you do even when this change in 2.3 hits it still won't make missing fears "OK".
If history is to change, let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If my fate is to die, I must simply laugh.
Trainers in Shattrath and Ironforge don't have it, is it missing or should I be looking somewhere else? I was gonna check out what the side effects are, although I only have 1 stack of ragveil on test.
10/22/07, 4:16 PM
