Sinzar

We do get a unique item / ability for killing Illidan currently. The [Blessed Medallion of Karabor]. Because I killed Illidan, I now can teleport to Black Temple (Shadowmoon Valley) from anywhere every 15 minutes. 8 months into WotLK I'm going to be very glad I can teleport back to Outland from wherever because I took down Illidan back in BC.

That's exactly the kind of reward I feel we need for high end PvE accomplishments. Something that will have a use forever. Now we just need them to add a lot more items like the Medallion.

 

brunnor

Having an item randomly in your bags you got from a boss that has no look to it at all is not what people are talking about here. People want to stand out in a crowd and a neck that you never wear isnt that way. The idea of how it was received, however, is on the right track. A quest for killing the current end game boss giving some reward that wouldn't change any huge aspect of the game other than appearance. I have always thought titles would be a good way to go. I know I enjoyed my "High Priest Brunnor" title in EQ for getting my epic 2.0. I don't like the non-combat pet idea because I hate those stupid things and find them annoying, but again the idea is good.

edit- my spelling is amazing

 

songster

Yes. And they also want to be on a server that has several active raid groups of similar levels of progression. These are pretty much mutually exclusive goals, unless you put in lots of random low-drop items (e.g. the phoenix mount) which you're not guaranteed to get even when you can farm the instance.

 

Trouble

I would say it's a combination. Looks are important but I also think the BT Teleport is a nice touch. It's not something that radically changes gameplay or gives you an unfair advantage, but it is useful and a very nice touch. The game could stand to use a lot more items like it. Not portals or whatever, but items that give a small benefit and are gotten as rewards for accomplishing a certain high end goal. It gives my character some small differentiation from the mass of people who haven't accomplished what I have.

 

Liebestod

A large motivation behind all of these changes is mudflation. It's inevitable and Blizzard has to deal, and they've been doing a much better job of keeping parity between all progression paths in TBC than in vanilla WoW. I'll break it down by the major categories, I know they're not completely exclusive but I'm trying to keep it concise:

Vanilla WoW:
Non-raiders: The gear level of non-raid content was capped for a long, long time, and things like the Tier 0.5 chain did little to change this. Some difficult grinds for epics were included in later patches.

PvPers: The old honor system required weeks and weeks of grinding for epics which gradually became outdated as new raid content became available. Eventually it was replaced by the current system along with the high-end gear being buffed (first major example of mudflation) to keep track with raid epics. I can't say much for the ease of acquisition of these epics, as I wasn't playing during the period of the new honor system pre-TBC.

Raiding: New raids were gradually released, taking players from poorly-itemized ilvl 66 epics (MC) to awesome-itemized ilvl 90 epics that allowed players to absolutely shred anything that crossed their paths in PvP. Raiding was the major source of mudflation in vanilla WoW, since the simple fact is that as raids were "tuned" (nerfed) and guilds became more familiar with the content, it became easier and easier to gear up. Tales of the noob raid Hunter going from dungeon blues to 5/8 Tier 2 in a week abounded. The most casual of players could look forward to gradual gear progression through raiding, and the inability of other paths to consistently keep up really was a problem.

TBC:
Non-raiders: Originally 5-mans drop decent loot, and heroic dungeons drop some pretty damn good loot, especially in comparison to the period before raid epics were buffed. Manageable rep grinds were abundant which offered epics as well. Now there's stuff like the HH event and the new BoJ rewards which will allow non-raiders access to some Tier 5-level gear. Additionally, most non-raiders could gradually acquire arena and PvP epics which had a fair amount of PvE use as well.

PvP: The addition of the arena system is obviously the big change here. Not only was the best PvP loot in the game now available largely through PvP (as opposed to high-end raiding), but the PvP gear was decent for PvE as well, generally not as good as Kara epics but better than dungeon blues. The season system introduced a purposeful mudflation into PvP in order to keep up with raid progression. Yes, it's possible for a noob to grind out powerful S3 gear now, but it's also possible for noobs to join high-end raiding guilds and get decked out like was the problem pre-TBC. For those who have PvPed from the beginning, we have to grind out and replace our epics each season like raiders have to get new epics with each new instance. It seems like Blizzard has done a decent job of ensuring parity of progression here.

Raiding: Same deal as pre-TBC, except the gear curve isn't as steep and you can't use your PvE gear to dominate PvP, at least not so easily. The major difference, I guess, was that there were steep attunements implemented which were presumably meant to prevent players from skipping huge chunks of the endgame, but this created more harm than good as guilds found it difficult to recruit keyed players or bring their alts up to a similar gear level as the mains. This problem arguably still exists even with the simple Hyjal attunement due to how quickly guilds who are in T6 content tend to move T5 instances off their schedule.

Raid progression is still the main variable which determines the rate of mudflation. All the other paths are playing catchup, Blizzard is just doing a better job with it now. It's easy to bitch and moan about people getting welfare HH epics, but at the same time where's the bitching and moaning about new recruits getting to hit the Kara loot pinata every week for guilds in Tier 5 content?

Anyways, this post may not be entirely tangeantial to the topic on its own, so I'll attempt to tie it in: Mudflation is the great enemy of "status" in the game, as it means that status-worthy accomplishments become less notable over time. Mudflation is also an inevitable force that, if held back, will probably only serve to screw up the game. Inequalities would become too persistent in some aspects of the game, and this is the major reason why the slate has to be cleansed periodically with a level-cap raise and gear-curve hike like TBC featured.

If Blizzard were wise, they would focus on making status objectives which won't be mudflated. Notably, they'd probably have to be time-dependent somehow: Kill Illidan within the first 3 months of BT being released. Complete the Trials of the Naaru before the SSC/TK attunements were removed. Kill Shartuul. Open the Scarab Gates. But even these kinds of events can be exploited to some extent: Pay someone 2000g to bring you to their Illidan kill. Have someone clear out the TotN instances for you so that you can run in and complete the quests. It's not easy to do, really.

[Edit]

Reading over the thread more closely, a lot of the complaints I see are.. troublesome. You want an achievement for killing a boss? Should it be the same for people who kill him 1 month after release or 6 months? Or if you join a guild that's farming him and tag along for a kill? Or if you just buy a raid spot? There's no doubt that a lot of things in the game can be considered achievements, but there's no easy algorithm that Blizzard is going to employ in order to ensure that everyone gets their due reward here.

Furthermore, the aesthetic thing about homogenous PvP (and to some extent PvE) gear, PvP gear looking like PvE, etc.... yea, okay, this is laziness on Blizzard's fault, however, I wouldn't use it as a critique of Blizzard's broad handling of TBC PvP. I mean, it'd be cool if PvP sets had their own look, and that there was more variety of gear, but that really has nothing to do with the season or Honor system or whatever.

And songster's point about the aggregation of top-end guilds on just a few realms is also really interesting. My main is on a TBC-release server, and the top guilds are still working on Vashj/Kael. Players still look pretty damn different, and the release of S3 gear will actually increase diversity. If players on some servers are congregating at the top and all looking the same, well... sucks to be at the top, I guess?

 

Metrosexuelf

WoW is the Big Mac of MMOs. The developers intentionally eschew nearly any and every type of meaningful way to distinguish characters. Even something as simple as deciding where to allocate the stats you receive each time you level (i.e. maybe I'll spend 3 points in str and 2 in agi at the expense of health, etc.). Of course that in itself is fairy irrelevant since the game is heavily gear driven.

Hell... their idea of radical cutomization changes are allowing haircuts and new dances.

 

brunnor

How would this be different from people buying Gladiator arena teams? Or just playing arena the last 2 weeks of the season for a title? Or joining a better team than you are on? All that stuff is the same as what you seem to have a problem with. All of it is done and not frowned upon.

But as far as it goes for PvE, what does it matter to the random masses if I have a different title, pet, mount than them? It shouldn't. Who cares if you cant get the title. I cant get Scarab Lord anymore, oh noes and thats the ONLY different title there is for PvE. If people buy a raid slot for a title... they are just dumb and I dont think anyone would argue with that.

If they wanted to really do a good title system so you couldnt just buy a spot or be in guild for a few kills and get one. It would just be a questline through the zone. Just like the one in BT, just add a few more steps to it. Maybe make it take like some quest trash drops, that are common but you would have to do trash to get them, or just trash killing like the Naxx one.

 

Brissa

Thats not really true though is it?
There are several epic items that are clearly overpowered for their position in the content (DST and Solarians sapphire to be more precise). They arent visually distinguishable, being trikets and all, and they probably werent intended to be as good as they are but they do exist.

 

Starfire

Well, I think Blizzard has finally started with this. There is ", Champion of the Naaru" and I think that's a great start.

I am kinda shocked though, some of these feel so obvious. I mean, in the old world (and new with Kael'thas, I suppose) there were buffs like "Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer", but that lasted 2 hours. Still, it was some recognition. But I think that buff could be the good foundation for a title. I mean... I suppose there were signet rings and what not... but that's just unvisible gear...

Imagine, after killing Nefarian you would have the option of ", Blackwing Dragonslayer".

I could go on:
C'thun : ", the Godslayer"
Kel'Thuzad : ", the Dawnbringer" (with a connection to the Argent Dawn)

Or hell, give us titles for reputations. Reaching exalted with say Hydraxian Waterlords, ", Neptulon's Vindicator" or something.

Also, I do think TBC started out with a somewhat good idea, but then it kinda flundered. The special unique tabbards, but on that end, it also feels like you're losing something not being able to wear your guild tabbard too... but then again, I guess you always have your guild tag.

On a side note, know what else would be cool? Battle Standards. Useable anywhere, hell, even if it was something like Kel'Thuzard's battle standard giving your party +80 AP vs. undead, taht'd just be ocol.

 

Kardinalen

It's not just the item itself, it has to have a decent buildup aswell. MC was the first raid instance and the only one for 6 months. An item which is clearly the best in the game, droping in the hardest raid instance will ofcourse generate alot of talk. And ofcourse it must look good. Today we're so overwhelmed with raids and items (who can't even compete with vanilla items in looks) that nothing will ever reach the same kind of status as some vanilla items did.

 

Kasi

Well honestly purely luck based random drops like Sulfuras and Thunderfuy were a bad idea. The difference between a raid with a TF tank and one without were night and day. I'm quite glad they decided to stop with that model. Even now the Glaives give a pretty good epeen stroking for those interested in that. I think a lot of the argument here is the same that has gone on in numerous other threads. That this game is ho hum to many of us now. Of course things aren't as fresh and interesting. We've seen it all.

 

Liebestod

Um, I frown on it. And Blizzard frowns on it enough to try to fix it in 2.3. Even if it doesn't piss you off, does anyone seriously deny that these activities dilute the "accomplishment" of being a gladiator?

Yea, I guess exalted Ashtongue + Illidan kill would work well enough in BT's case.

 

Reddayspring

More vargoth staffs!

give me a staff that lets me bust out a chained kneeling shade of illidan <Vanquished by Player> or some such. Or more tabards with use graphics like the TBC quest tabard with the holy nova. Small things that players can epeen stroke with that don't hurt the ballance of the game. Let a gladiator have a tabard with a particle aura on itl It's not hard to put cool, if pointless things into a game and let people show off their acheivements

 

◊ pewsey

I play the game because it's my version of golf. I like to spend 3-4 hours, 3-4 times a week strolling around a dungeon, smacking down monsters. I like just chatting in /g.

The main reason I play is because I have a choice of a social interaction with others, or watching TV.

I have kept my Tentacle of C'thun because that makes for great comedy moments in PvP or random PuGs when you use it.

Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
Nemesis: "Pewsey is single-handedly turning around every guy in the BB that didn't want to have kids."
Viator: Because I had a baby so I'm better than non-breeders.

 

RK

This man is correct. Having Skyshatter SHOULD make you feel like you stand out from the crowd, it's only being on Mal'ganis that makes that not the case. Shu'halo has exactly one guild that has killed Vashj (but after multiple sub 10 wipes I cam confident we'l make that 2 next week!) and 0 guilds that have killed Kael'thas. If we had killed Vashj this weekend and I got my t5 helm or I got the ring (and you can't even SEE the ring without the inspect) I'd be the only shaman with them on the server (and the first Horde member with them too). I'm not guaranteed to win them even if they drop. But I'd be lying if the possibility wasn't a little motivation.

That said, I think PvE and PvP gear need to have separate look for the sake of both arena guys and PvE guys so that the respective accomplishments are clearer (and so that you can tell if you're facing someone in t5 with little resilience or merciless gladiator with a bucketload1!).

 

Trouble

Regardless of how many people are wearing Skyshatter now on Mal'ganis, there will be 50x as many wearing Shyshatter look-alike gear when season 3 is released. It may be less unique on Mal'ganis, but it will completely NON-UNIQUE on every server then.

 

◊ Praetorian

A few things. First off, I wasn't complaining that I don't feel like a unique snowflake in Skyshatter. I was simply acknowledging the point that people have gone on to make, which is that server matters a lot and that my perceptions might be different if I were on a different server.

My point, however, is not that I want to be the only one who has Skyshatter and thus have throngs of people surrounding me asking where I got my gear. My point is that I suppose I lament my increasing inability to meaningfully distinguish myself from others. I don't need to look at someone in Aurora in t6 to feel mundane -- I can look at someone in mostly t5 and realize that they have maybe 100 less +heal and 20 less mp5 than I do. Everyone basically has the same stats, and the ilvl of their gear determines just how much of those stats they have. If someone else has [Cataclysm Legguards] and I have [Skyshatter Leggings], I may appreciate the gap in progression between Karathress and Illidari Council, but the gap in terms of stats is fairly minor. In arenas especially, as I said, everyone is pretty much a clone of each other, which I think undermines the point of MMO PvP.

It is difficult to distinguish oneself not only in terms of "superiority," but also laterally, as compared to peers.

When I brought up the gear reset with TBC, I wasn't comparing that to the fact that Mal'Ganis has lots of raiding guilds. I'm comparing it to the constant buffing of the ilvl of existing loot, and the rapid and almost staggering degree at which inflation occurs at the level 70 baseline. In January 2007, with TBC, we saw itemization changes to let people catch up because there was a gap that had been created that was over two full years in breadth. But now we see the "entry level" content at 70 providing loot that is on par with what was the very best loot in the game five months ago. That's definitely a shift in Blizzard's approach.

 

trif

its a wierd one, i played rogue and loved topping damage meters in raids, that made MC wipes fun, then i went and farmed epics in a top guild, saw bwl, aq40, naxx etc, went back to my old guild and have just leveled and progressed through tbc with friends since. we are on vashj atm, hopefully down this week or next, now playing feral druid as tank and dps.

also PvP has gone from "lol, i ganked that guy while he had two mobs on him" to "lol, i have t2, i own all in this AB" to "on a reasionably level playingfield i can have a good duel with people(excluding SL/SL locks), where its more about who screws up, instead of who has all the epics" its fun, and imo has added a new dynamic to the game, all credit to blizz for this, maybe thats just druids though.

the other games i play online are almost all FPS games. i think what brings me back to WoW apart from the social side is that feeling of progression, i remember a great comic on RedvsBlue.com where a guy is trying to give up his MMORPG addiction, and gets tokens each day he doesn't play, and he becomes obsessed with getting more tokens. i find it a bit the same, i love seeing my chars getting better, either leveling alts and getting new spells and talents, or playing my main and getting new gear and better stats, both PvE and PvE.

for me the comparison to others has been less about standing in org waving my epeen around, and more about competing in raids and with my guild for the best stats, top dps, or mastering tanking challanges.

in FPS games this comes down to ranking top, or having the most headshots, the lowest kill to death ratio etc.

i feel i'm getting far off topic now, but i'd love to see action/FPS type games where there are similar ideas of persional progression, beyond just getting a bigger, shinier gun :P

but as for now, facing the right way and pressing 1, 2 and 3 in different orders will have to do

i think WoW's attraction is 60% social, 40% (false?) feeling of achievement, 0% need to wave thunderhart 5/5 in people's faces for me.

edit: reading some replies i feel i missed the point a bit, but also not, i dont feel this game is about status symbols, there is more to combat and game mechanics and stats than that, i've always had more respect for the warrior tanking in random crap, than the warrior trying to look cool with 8/8 valor and being no use for anything. same for 70, casters taking t4 just because its t4 even though tailoring sets are better stats wise.

 

Bael

This reminds me of the Honour system commonly used in old-school MUDs. In a game where graphics and appearance mean nothing, it was a great mechanic to work out somebody's abilities, what kind of bosses they'd killed, whether they participated in long and extensive quest lines, and even whether they'd been married! I never quite understood why WoW didn't have a similar system.

It goes straight to the heart of why people are willing to invest so much time in the character; individual progression. A system like this would be nothing more than a chronicle, a recording of what you've spent your time doing in the game. It doesn't have to have anything to do with killing bosses or being in a fantastic Arena team, though it can certainly reflect those achievements.

I like the idea of fun, nonsense records (Chicken Kicker for killing 1000 chickens), and titles that you earn from completing holiday-specific events (Hunter of the Headless Horseman?).

As far as I'm concerned a system like this is probably the best thing they could do for WoW prior to WotLK.

 

trif

Thats true actually, i mean, expense history in CT-mod was quite interesting, just imagine how cool it would be to see all the stats and achievements of your char.
As someone mentioned earlier blizz, could get server data on how often people died to different things, why not add a history pannel listing what people have got up to, would give some more meaning to /played.

 

RK

I thought this discussion was done to death though in the time preceding 2.1, when the gear progression was so narrow as to be non-existent and it was clear that Blizzard had made a decision for TBC:

1. To provide means for non-raiding pvp people to obtain quality gear; and
2. To prevent the gear gap between advanced raiders and ordinary pvpers ever growing too large.

They blatantly overdid the second one at TBC launch and ultimately had to reitemize, but the philosophy is still the same. They don't want to open the gap as far as they once did, percentage-wise.

The drawback to this is it reduces Blizzard's ability to do gear-based progression, leading to the situation where Nihilum blasted through the entirety of tier 6 content in two weeks (effectively killing Illidan in tier 5 with a dozen tier 6 pieces.. IIRC they got Illidan before they completed Hyjal, too). And it reduces the prestige from having advanced gear.

I doubt Blizzard will go back on this philosophy. There are simply more pvp'ers out there than there are advanced raiders, and it makes no sense for them to annoy the majority to give raiders a greater sense of self-worth. I suspect stuff like titles will be provided as a substitute (unique looking gear would help- as was said above, it will be less cool to get tier 6 when every arena team is sporting the same look!).

 

• Binkenstein

[random]
22/10/16:28 falk|hiding: someone quote that post
22/10/16:28 falk|hiding: and bold the "ont he"
22/10/16:28 falk|hiding: and post "Take a week off to work on your grammar"
[/random]

Personally, I just like being able to say "I killed that boss!".
The one-up-man-ship that comes from saying "I killed it before you!" strikes me as bragging a little bit (this doesn't include those first kills though).

PvP rewards have less of that satisfaction part too it (although you can go "yeah, I got it, finally") as up until season 3 you could get any of it without much skill. I was even doing a slack 5v5 team that would go in, get ten games, be surprised at how many we won, and took our 300ish arena points thankyouverymuch.

 

Bael

And wouldn't it be great to not have to say that; to have people inspect you, and have your track record for all the world to see?

I don't know, I just like that idea :P

 

◊ Praetorian

Yes, though I suppose my take on it here is simply that WoW at max level is wholly a gear-based game. Everything you do (whether it's getting rep, running instances, PvPing, crafting, etc.) affects your character's baseline stats in one way: via obtaining new pieces of gear.

As Blizzard has "learned" more about itemization, and as you have increasing gear parity both vertically (different levels of seriousness/achievement) and horizontally (different playstyles), gear becomes increasingly homogeneous. Which leads us to this point, wondering how to go about distinguishing our characters from the zillion other characters out there with the same level/race/class.

 

• Binkenstein

For me, a trophy rack isn't necessary. It'd certainly help on apps to new guilds, and I can see why people would want one, but it'd be like the item database on the armory. Shiney, but not that useful to me.