It goes straight to the heart of why people are willing to invest so much time in the character; individual progression. A system like this would be nothing more than a chronicle, a recording of what you've spent your time doing in the game. It doesn't have to have anything to do with killing bosses or being in a fantastic Arena team, though it can certainly reflect those achievements.
I like the idea of fun, nonsense records (Chicken Kicker for killing 1000 chickens), and titles that you earn from completing holiday-specific events (Hunter of the Headless Horseman?).
As far as I'm concerned a system like this is probably the best thing they could do for WoW prior to WotLK.
I've been wishing for a system like this since release. I'd love some sort of account-based journal that would be added to with almost everything you did.
Kill Arugal? His biography is added, complete with "killed by a band of adventurers, (date you first killed him)"
Complete the quest, Arugal Must Die? Concept Art and a history of SFK are added.
Kill 50 Worgen? Add some sketches of a Son of Arugal and The Adventurer's Guide to Worgen Fighting, with a variety of amusing tips.
They can be small, they can be funny, they can have nothing to do with the task you accomplished. I don't care if my reward for Cenarion Expedition-Revered is the CE head chef's recipe for Gnome Souffle, I just want some acknowledgement that I did it.
Final Fantasy XII did it, and I've heard the Warhammer MMO has something similiar, I don't see why WoW doesn't.
Reading this thread makes me want to quit playing There is nothing unique about my character(s) that make me stand out in a crowd, no shining achievements that no one else on my server (or at least very few people) have. It's really quite depressing, that I've spent years playing this game just to be like everyone else.
Unfortunately I can't see any way of fixing some of wow's larger problems without completely re building the game from the ground up. I am now seriously considering another mmo but there are no really good ones that aren't a complete grind fest compared to wow.
Pre-TBC there were very obvious status symbols. I can still recall just having hit 60 right after launch, and doing endless 10 man Baron runs, and a priest in ER (my servers premier raid guild) came along in full T1 + Benediction. This was very very early, and damn, he looked awesome.
Later I was the priest in T1 and Benediction, and I occasionally saw people in full T2 hanging out in IF. They looked awesome, but this Benediction looked fruity as hell, and I was not a fan of T1 any more. My guild's progression was slow and you could tell it just looking at me! Just getting cooler looking gear was almost as big an incentive for clearing BWL as the stats on the gear.
By the time AQ was released, my guild was deep in BWL but T2 was a bit common in IF, and the damn Benediction was really getting on my nerves. I buckled down and ground AQ20 and ZG like crazy, finally getting the exalted CE mace, [Flowing Ritual Robes], and the ZG set shoulders. With a stylish mace and a full set of bright red clothing (I kept the red fedora from Strat around for town gear), I looked cool and unique again, and due to some itemization holes, I wasn't even gimping myself.
Right before TBC launched, my guild downed Nef - a huge event for our very casual guild - and started to think seriously about AQ40. My guilds MT finally completed his TF, and our pally CO got Sulfuras - by no means the first on the server, but still rare enough that they'd hang out in town and bask in the /tells from newbies asking about them. Meanwhile, the top 2-3 guilds were getting deep into Naxx, and occasionally I'd see one of the elite in partial T3 hanging out in town.
In short, there was a very linear progression, and it was very easy to recognize the tiers. I won't deny the flaws were legion, but looking around IF I could see very clearly where different guilds were, and where we were.
In TBC...that's all gone, really. Heavy graphic reuse and a profusion of sets, tiers, and random armor leaves everything a confused mess. Itemization holes leading raiders to pvp for arena gear makes matters worse, as does the tailored gear. And in 2.3, the badge rewards and ZA loot make eyeballing someone even less useful. There was a time pre-TBC when you could basically assume anyone with a lvl 60 epic had done something cool (or at least very tedious), even if you didn't know where that particular epic came from. The Headless Horseman event is only the latest and most extreme example of why you can no longer do that.
Example: I passed on T4 and later T5 shoulders because my tailored shoulders were better - and while I love the fact that I had such easy access to powerful epics, I've been using the same damn gear since before I entered Kara. When people look at me, I look like every other pre-T6 shadow priest - and I'm not sure I'd even recognize a T6 shadow priest if I bumped into one. That's frustrating - and not because I want to look uber-cool, but because I want to look different and recognizable. T6 level gear is probably just as rare now as T3 level gear was on my server prior to TBC, but for whatever reason, it doesn't seem as cool or as "epic" somehow.
Really good unique art is hard. I recognize that. (Although I suspect art better than endless puke green Lawbringer and recolored Arcanist wouldn't have been THAT hard...) And so is itemization. Ideally, I'd like a unique and distinctive set of gear which is worth wearing and precisely indicates my current level of progression. Also, I'd like a pony. Made of chocolate.
However, since I won't get EITHER of those, adding suffix titles for major PvE kills and/or exalted factions seems like an extremely good idea. It solves all sorts of problems; it lets me indicate where I am in current progression ("Lazare, Cleanser of Karazhan"), or let's me highlight something cool I did in the past ("Lazare, Lord of Blackrock", or "Lazare, Saviour of the Zandalar"). At a glance, people get at least a little idea about who I am and what I've done. And that's a good thing, right?
Yes, though I suppose my take on it here is simply that WoW at max level is wholly a gear-based game. Everything you do (whether it's getting rep, running instances, PvPing, crafting, etc.) affects your character's baseline stats in one way: via obtaining new pieces of gear.
We still get new pieces of gear. The trick is they're no longer the big upgrades over previous pieces that they used to be*.
Remember the oft-quoted line from... Tigole? For all I know it was Shane Dabiri, but people attribute everything to Tigole, so I will too... that non-raider A can get a sword and raider B can get the exact same sword only it will be flaming?
I think they're going in that direction, although right now the difference is that both swords are flaming but one is green and the other is red. So they haven't quite got there yet.
I think the ultimate goal is that gear progression will be about minor upgrades in stats and major upgrades in either Oooh Shiny or These Shoulders Mean I Killed Arthas, Bow Before Me but to get there they're going to have to hire extra artists and make those new pieces of gear recognisable as trophies that only drop off one particular boss.
* Although even back in the day there were issues with things like those rogue gloves off Kazzak or the ACLG or the ToEP or the Rejuv Gem or the entire shaman itemisation up until Naxx... the two big gaps were-
1. Level 60 blues and greens to MC- part of which was that "level 60" blues were mostly blues with sub60 equip requirements, and MC was both level 60 required and epic and after about May 2005 better itemised. "Tier 0.5" and the pvp gear revamp helped close the gap a little, but by then the second gap had occurred,
2. Not-Naxx to Naxx. Tier 3 was a cut above, and frankly, I think in hindsight they did it knowing there was about to be a wipe and said "screw it, let's reward the cutting edge before we push the reset button", which probably bodes well for the raiders who see Sunwell.
My point being that from MC to BWL to AQ40 was no greater progression in gear than we see from Gruul/Mag to BT now. The gaps were from dungeon gear to epics (which still exists, although the fact that the top level dungeons are better itemised and drop level 70 items instead of level 68 or whatever helps) and from BWL/AQ40 to Naxx- and that last transition hasn't occurred yet in TBC raiding. It's probably Naxx nostalgia that populates the view that gear used to be bigger upgrades
This is straight on the money. I've been playing since release and have played with many people who basically derived their entire sense of self-satisfaction from being "Better" than other players, for having cooler-looking gear, and whatnot. And over time, you eventually start to see how sad that is. In the end it doesn't matter at all, as long as you are enjoying your time you are spending in the game and the people you are playing with, that is what should satisfy you. If you are just miserable and feel unrewarded for your efforts, then just do something else. I think that's a big success of TBC - people should be doing something because they derive satisfaction from it, not because it necessarily makes them look cooler or have a more impressive array of virtual stats. For PvPers especially, the fact is you can basically ignore much of the PvE game now (and the people that invest in it) if you really want to, and just do what you want rather than feel compelled to raid. This is immensely better for the game in my opinion, but it is also certain to bruise some egos along the way.
I'd have to agree that perceptions have changed.
I remember way back in the day when killing Ragnaros was the big thing. Guilds that killed him acted quite high and mighty...and got treated high and mighty. I recall being somewhat reluctant to even message people in these guilds, partly because their "uberness" the way they treated other people, and just my own personal perceptions of them.
Here comes TBC. The hyper motivated people have transferred off server to cutting edge guilds, the pricks have been weeded out and ostracized over time, epic gear has been more accessible though heroics and PvP, and the general overall sense being 1up in progression has diminished. It's lead to much more of a mellow vibe for the game overall.
Hell, just tonight while working on Vashj I found out that a guild that's been way below us for some time has downed Al'ar before us. I just know back in the old days that would have pissed me off, but tonight I just shrugged it off and focused on Vashj. It's about our accomplishment, not how well we're doing compared to others.
I think the general focus for most players has shifted from being "l33t", having the best gear, and being most progressed to an overall sense of personal improvement, guild improvement, etc.
And IMO the epicness feel is renewed with each expansion. "Epicness" IMO is simply the overall feel you get when in the game. When you're in new lands, forging through new dungeons, discovering new mobs, everything feels epic...but when you've flown over the world so many times, done boss fights over and over, etc, the sense of epic fails.
The thing I don't like about titles is that if I have to turn on "Slayer of Parasites" or something, then I am bragging. I would indeed like someone to eyeball me and think "Hell, that guy probably plays a stupid amount but I sure wish I had some of his gear!". What I don't like so much is sticking it in someone's face through a big floating text bar.
As it stands now, there really isn't any reason for me to jump through the hoops I do though and from any logical standpoint I could not possibly defend the effort to gear progression ratio. That's fine I suppose as I happen to like raiding but it definitely removes a carrot that I think worked pretty well in the past. Really, the only remaining status symbol for PvE guilds is the guild-tag itself and the occasional realm progression post.
It is indeed an old saw by now though and Blizzard has been pretty clear on what they consider to be an acceptable gap (vanishingly small). That leaves us to embrace it or move on of course.
Adding more titles and skins for gear would be great and would keep org from looking like a sea of tier 4. Another problem is the difference between tiers is so small it doesn't justify moving on from kara to SSC/TK and ZA is just going to make it easier for people to get more powerful gear from little work. What are they going to do next? Make Sunwell a 10 man because its to tough for casuals to get 25 people together. Why can't blizzard leave raiding for the hardcore and PvP for the Casual? Alot of casuals want to be able to "pwn nubz wit dat sweet gearz" but they don't want to work for it, so leave them with arenas to get them gear but don't make raiding worthless because arenas is free purpz. Raiding gear won't let you obliterate people in PvP anymore, which is stupid. Some people want to raid for some power outside of instances.The time you put into raiding should pay off with better gear than the gear thats more powerful than the arena gear that you can earn with a few hours of play a week. Blizzard had it right the first time with Status symbols and gearing. There was some problems in vanilla for casuals, but this is a MMO its made to be a time waste. Casuals shouldn't be rewarded with the same shit as the people that play hardcore and almost devote their life to WoW.
Yes, though I suppose my take on it here is simply that WoW at max level is wholly a gear-based game. Everything you do (whether it's getting rep, running instances, PvPing, crafting, etc.) affects your character's baseline stats in one way: via obtaining new pieces of gear.
As Blizzard has "learned" more about itemization, and as you have increasing gear parity both vertically (different levels of seriousness/achievement) and horizontally (different playstyles), gear becomes increasingly homogeneous. Which leads us to this point, wondering how to go about distinguishing our characters from the zillion other characters out there with the same level/race/class.
Exactly. The problem lies in WoW being 99.99% gear based in terms of character progression. It's a much larger issue that needs to be tackled which is why it surprises me some people are asking for more titles or an 'accomplishments list.' Things like that will ultimately still leave most players feeling hollow. The gear-based paradigm needs to change although I'm not sure how they would go about doing that.
The carrot-on-a-stick approach is wearing thin. Chasing the carrot was always more entertaining for me than actually getting my hands on it. Now, however, I find myself caring less and less collecting the odd piece of gear I still need to progress my character because it really wouldn't make a huge difference on my guild's ability to be competative in clearing Sunwell. There need to be alternate ways to progress your character other than itemization.
Last edited by Metrosexuelf : 10/22/07 at 2:44 AM.
Im suprised it hasn't really been addressed directly, but IMO, the only true status symbols in the game have been, and will continue to be, legendaries.
TF was an incredible status symbol because 1.) you could see it from a mile away, 2.) it was reasonably hard to get, 3.) getting it required the coordination of an entire guild for a single reward for a single player. The illidan swords are pretty good in this regard, in that they're highly visisble, and reasonably hard to get (for the other 97% of us)... but I'm still dissapointed that they just drop- even a relatively simple 3-4 step turn in quest would have been better (ala ashbringer/ateish?).
as for "Aleyro, slayer of Gruul"-like titles... the thing is, the majority of folks don't really care, and the ones who do know that if your have DST or t4 pants, then you've killed gruul... easy. unless your talking about the "final" boss at the moment, does anyone really care? I'm not really a fan of titles for things that can be accomplished by dozens of guilds, repeatedly, every week. The scarab lord event was unique, and a very small number of players will ever have their entire guild coordinate to craft them a thunderfury (especially not more than once).
Maybe artifacts are going to be the next status symbols? maybe there should be more "trials"? in whatever form they take, the true status symbols in the game should mark relatively unique accomplishments- it should be exceedingly difficult to find a player who has more than one "status symbol", and it should be relatively rare to find the same symbol on multiple players.
I believe the problem stems from Multiple Progression Paths. The more that exist, the more people who can get to your level and the less unique you are.
Vanilla WoW - A raider in Tier 3 was quite literally a God. Not only did he stand out in a crowd, but he was good at PvP as well.
One thing I think Blizzard should do is make it so you Can get great PvP gear from PvE. People who PvP will still have great items from Arena but the people who spend countless hours raiding won't be left behind in what a lot of people consider a symbol of status.
On another point, to bring in an upcoming Game, WAR will have a book that is readable by everyone else that will list all your accomplishments you have made in the game. And they plan to have Titles for almost everything ex. Climb a mountain nowhere near anything and you get the Title - King of the Mountain because you just did something others don't normally do.
Blizzard can't make everyone a unique Snowflake, but it really doesn't hurt to try.
Exactly. The problem lies in WoW being 99.99% gear based in terms of character progression. It's a much larger issue that needs to be tackled which is why it surprises me some people are asking for more titles or an 'accomplishments list.' Things like will ultimately still leave most players feeling hollow. The gear-based paradigm needs to change although I'm not sure how they would go about doing that.
The carrot-on-a-stick approach is wearing thin. Chasing the carrot was always more entertaining for me than actually getting my hands on it. Now, however, I find myself caring less and less collecting the odd piece of gear I still need to progress my character because it really wouldn't make a huge difference on my guild's ability to be competative in clearing Sunwell. There need to be alternate ways to progress your character other than itemization.
Bingo. Blizzard screwed up big time by making hero classes new classes instead of being routes existing characters could use as progression...
I would assume that this has been mentioned in the past, but I was always curious because of society judges WoW players. If I were in say Death and Taxes, sure it would be cool, but no one knows who they are outside the society of gaming, let alone WoW. When I go out, I never mention I play WoW to people, if my friends who know I play talk to me I'll mention stuff here or there about my character (and I have way better gear then my friends at school...even though I have 3/5 T5). But heck, half the people that play this game are oblivious to the Forums, Thoerycrafting and actually taking the time to make themselves a better player.
I mean when a Priest tells you he main heals boss fights with a mix of Flash Heals and has 70+ days played and thinks "he's doing alright" you want to know what drug's he's smoking. I will admit, the first thing I thought of when I saw the Headless Horseman loot was....WTF this item is almost as good as the Mag Ring. I think what blizzard is doing (and in some cases doing well) is trying to appeal to everyone. They want subscribers, and I think cheesing the entrance to heroics is sad (I hate rep farming, and even I can do every heroic....I'm a healer :-/)
I would vote for allowing PvE to PvP server Xfers. Also, I would vote on bringing back the Old PvP grind. Organized PvP is dead (IMO).
Exactly. The problem lies in WoW being 99.99% gear based in terms of character progression. It's a much larger issue that needs to be tackled which is why it surprises me some people are asking for more titles or an 'accomplishments list.' Things like will ultimately still leave most players feeling hollow. The gear-based paradigm needs to change although I'm not sure how they would go about doing that.
The carrot-on-a-stick approach is wearing thin. Chasing the carrot was always more entertaining for me than actually getting my hands on it. Now, however, I find myself caring less and less collecting the odd piece of gear I still need to progress my character because it really wouldn't make a huge difference on my guild's ability to be competative in clearing Sunwell. There need to be alternate ways to progress your character other than itemization.
Thinking about it objectively, there aren't many ways you can structure character progression without the gear chase. I think this problem is inherent with WoW; as a casual, consumer-oriented game, it needs to provide the same experience to multiple people.
Generic quest text, an inability to create player history or record significant events other than through screenshots, and no character customization beyond the selection of professions and allocation of talent points renders your character ultimately devoid of progression except in two areas; gear, and experience. Experience caps at 70, gear caps at Tier 6/Arena 3. The mainstream expectation is that gear is the be-all and end-all; we raid for gear, we pvp for gear, we quest for gear and we rep-grind for gear.
That's not to say there isn't the capacity within WoW for other progression paths to grow and flourish. Something like the Netherwing Drake is an example of a linear method of character progression that is separate from the regular gear path. Any level 70 can farm the gold to attain epic flying, and any level 70 can complete the dailies to get the mount. While the end result is still an item, it's not 'gear' per se; it doesn't offer an improvement in stats, or an improvement in your capacity to play the game. It's just a visually distinct reflection of your efforts in the game; which, I guess, is all we're asking for.
Changing the gear paradigm may be beyond the scope of the developers of WoW, but I hope they can develop some kind of mechanism to allow more diversity. Maybe through character plots? Storylines? Giving your character some history and significance to the perpetual wars? Who knows.
A Legendary really helps to give an instance character. Atiesh was a nice little lore piece for Naxxramas that tied well into the expansion and was a really awesome item at the time as well. They were also distributed in a great way - rather than being a luck-based drop, they were farmed in such a way that your first Kel'thuzad kill should result in you having a complete staff and they were still rare.
I'd be all for more legendaries, with Benediction-esque quests attached to them. Having these rare, but awesome items as a way of distinguishing 25-mans from previous stuff seems really awesome - especially if they were linked to a title as well. "Conine, Bearer of Thunderfury," "Furi, Tamer of Azzinoth" etc. (Although I hope they would be considerably better.
On the other hand, that's the potential for recognition for a select few. There are a few problems, of course. One is that the legendaries could start to pile up after months of farming - although with an Atiesh-type model, where it took a long time, even with full clears, to get the pieces, would definitely help there. Another is that it doesn't give much incentive for the people who would raid and not be able to receive legendaries. (Friends of guild, etc.)
PvE titles are definitely lacking right now, and I really wish they'd address that. They don't give out titles because they want titles to remain unique, but I see a lot of Grunts running around. If we want to restrict the titles, maybe make them restricted via a questline - Magtheridon needs to be killed for Trials of the Naaru, if something similar were implemented for Kael'thas and Illidan, we'd have three PvP titles. (Even more tellingly, I imagine the numbers of Mag/Kael/Illidan kills is similar to or less than the number of people with Rival/Duelist/Gladiator titles.)
Models being identical is getting ridiculous. Green lawbringer should never have gone live, it's one of the most repulsive sets I've ever seen. T5 gear looks identical to offspec loot, gladiator gear looks identical...No matter how you gear yourself up, you look like the same character. Bloodfang Hood used to be a neat item because it was the only hood that looked like it in the game. How many items in TBC haven't had their models re-used? If this is due to memory constraints, Blizzard really needs to man up and up the memory requirements on the box for WotLK. I don't care much about visual appeal, and even I think that it sucks that all of the loot I get looks like everyone else's loot. I honestly consider it lazy that all of the specs of T4/T5/T6 loot looks identical. They didn't even bother to recolour it...Purple Holy, red Retribution, and blue Protection? Something to at all differentiate me from a Paladin in full Crystalforge Raiment besides my shield?
To be honest, I don't think that anyone is happy with the models being re-used for PvP sets. PvP'ers look like raiders, which takes away from what they've done, and raiders look like PvP'ers, which takes away from what they have done. These are not "similar progression" - they're different progression lines.
What's most irritating is seeing things like the T5-quality badge rewards just thrown randomly into a patch. Yes, five-mans don't have enough progression at the moment, but simply adding new rewards to old content isn't the answer. Few were happier with Stratholme because they could get a 18 slot bag and a few epics in vanilla. Badge rewards or not, there's still no new 5-man content added, just a transparent attempt at motivation to repeat grinds you've already exhausted. To add insult to injury, Zul'aman loot uses new graphics...
Pretty much re-stating stuff in the thread, I suppose.
Im suprised it hasn't really been addressed directly, but IMO, the only true status symbols in the game have been, and will continue to be, legendaries.
This is not true for reasons already mentioned. Unique mounts like the Scarab Lord mount and Kael's Phoenix are greater in my opinion. When my guild got its first Thunderfury there were some congratulations but it wasn't a huge deal. Conversely, when I got Bonechewer's only Phoenix mount a few months back the amount of lag it created in Shattrath was amazing. I think I was running at about 2 FPS.
Blizzard has created a lot of things that could be seen as status symbols but aside from a couple legendaries and 2 mounts, everything else is attained by luck. The Sethekk Halls mount will get you noticed immediately, but anyone with a 70 druid friend can get it with a lucky roll. There's also a ton of unique items that are only attainable through the trading card game such as the Spectral Tiger. I like the idea of getting unique things that others don't have access too, but if Blizzard is going to make so many things available with the card game why not make more unique things available to raiders? I suppose it fits with the casual focus of Warcraft in general, but most of the unique things you can get are luck based, not skill based. They don't say, "Look at what I've done, I earned this." It's more like, "Hey, I'm a lucky bastard" or even worse "I spend money outside of this game to get extra stuff."
I really like the idea of a trophy room or some kind of journal that catalogs your accomplishments. Xbox live does a fantastic job of this with their achievements. Some achievements are simple and others are incredibly hard depending on the game. You don't get anything more than a little marker showing you've done it, but it's something and people go out of their way to unlock them. Something like this in WoW would be great.
On a few of these, gear based progression as the only thing is a mixed blessing. Personally I don't want to have to farm something else to progress my character, there's already enough. The idea of hero classes as a progression is again a mix, I play a raid tank, I love my job, if I was told that my character had to pick a hero class in order to do this, and therefore wouldn't be able to pvp effectively, or dps effectively, I don't think I'd be around for long. It works great for people who do the same thing in pvp and pve, and for dps classes in particular, but forcing a specialization with hero classes is something against blizzard's philosophy, and I'm glad with that. If they made hero classes a progression for each class gets one progression, we'd see nothing new, it'd just be like leveling up again, and if it was race based, we'd run into the same problem we have with racials now.
On the note really, titles are great, but I just would settle for meaningful gear progression and badass looking graphics. It's stupid that the upgrades are just so small in gear progression now. On most upgrades I would gain more if they added a single gem slot than the entire upgrade they actually give. Then for recognition, items like the Warglaives, like the Bulwark of Azzinoth, those go a long way, when you carry something that someone just kind of turns around to check it out, that's great, it doesn't hurt anyone, and it would keep me happy. Seriously the difference between the attention I got before and after I picked up my Bulwark is insane, and it's fun to sit there in AV and have people go "Oh wow, Lodekim's in this game, we can't lose!" (though that's changed on Stormstrike battlegroup since they added afk reporting and alliance loses almost every one I've been in, but still, it was fun!)
edit: more on that line, I got the first horde Sulfuras on Arthas back when I played there, at this point BWL was out, it had been around on Alliance for several months, there were like 6 on the server, but I had the first horde one, and I got tells several times a day saying "wow congrats man" because it looked cool. The new items just don't have the impressiveness quite the same way that even beyond legendaries, items like Severance and Ashkandi did.
Exactly. The problem lies in WoW being 99.99% gear based in terms of character progression. It's a much larger issue that needs to be tackled which is why it surprises me some people are asking for more titles or an 'accomplishments list.' Things like that will ultimately still leave most players feeling hollow. The gear-based paradigm needs to change although I'm not sure how they would go about doing that.
The carrot-on-a-stick approach is wearing thin. Chasing the carrot was always more entertaining for me than actually getting my hands on it. Now, however, I find myself caring less and less collecting the odd piece of gear I still need to progress my character because it really wouldn't make a huge difference on my guild's ability to be competative in clearing Sunwell. There need to be alternate ways to progress your character other than itemization.
You've touched on exactly what I wanted to say. I remember when I finished grinding rank 14, and had decayed down to ~legionnaire, I used to be so mad I couldn't chat in WD or display my rank 14 title anymore. It bothered me so much I considered re-grinding 14, until I remembered how much of a nightmare WSG holidays were...
That's neither here nor there, my point is that today, my attitude is very different. I don't display that title or my arena ranking (which is worth displaying, I'll leave it at that) for a variety of reasons, some of which are easy for me to describe, some not. All I'm saying is be careful what you wish for, because a title or similar, "simple" response to the issues brought up in this thread may not be what you really want.
I get the feeling that the recognition Gurgthock desires (who claims to miss pvp in vanilla wow--but don't we all? XD ) is not the kind of in-your-face recognition that is sought by some other posters here. Frankly, the other issues brought up herein, like the homogeneity brought on by arenas (as it relates to playstyles, not skins) matter a lot more to me, but then again, I'm a hunter. As someone a few posts above me said, recognition on our character tab or something similarly discreet would be ideal, but I think tying this to armory would be crucial. The armory can't be overlooked when it comes to achieving recognition, and simply adding a pane that listed achievements to it, with links next to your official forum avatars might be the way to go.
At the same time, the vast majority of people have their titles enabled on my server. That's obviously intentional, and titles are pretty discreet in themselves, considering they can be disabled. I'll have to second that motion as well, I suppose. No luck for Gurgthock though, considering he's already got Scarab Lord...
Why not switch up the servers at WOTLK. Why not promote Casual and Hardcore servers? Put all the big name players on some servers, put them all in the same battlegroup and then give people a free transfer. So if you feel like being casual, you can move and take a step back? One thing I did always wonder, why do the servers stay up 24/7? If they want people to "take a break and play with friends outside" why not shut the servers down a few hours at night and day. Then the server time zone you played on would actually mean something.
I would vote for changing the server types, and allowing PvE to PvP server Xfers. Also, I would vote on bringing back the Old PvP grind. Organized PvP is dead (IMO).
I'm not sure how you would enforce casual vs hardcore servers, and why "hardcore" people would necessarily want to be on a server without other people to pick flowers for them to buy or why "casual" people particularly care if there's a "hardcore" guild on their server (on a societal level, people generally love to have something like that around as an aspirational thing even if they will never even attempt to get into that guild). This smells to me like a troll to get a hardcore vs casual derail going.
As for downtime: People whinged like crazy at the existing downtime, which is why they now try and keep up the servers as close to 24/7 as possible. Blizzard is not your mother. Being your mother is not a good business practice. A server with a few hours downtime a day is a server which no-one will play on. This is so obvious I am pretty convinced you're trolling now.
The old PvP grind wherein the only way to rank 14 weapons or even ank 12 and rank 13 armor was poopsocking and/or account sharing for months on end? And you would vote to bring this back? Totally trolling.
I'm not sure how you would enforce casual vs hardcore servers, and why "hardcore" people would necessarily want to be on a server without other people to pick flowers for them to buy or why "casual" people particularly care if there's a "hardcore" guild on their server (on a societal level, people generally love to have something like that around as an aspirational thing even if they will never even attempt to get into that guild). This smells to me like a troll to get a hardcore vs casual derail going.
As for downtime: People whinged like crazy at the existing downtime, which is why they now try and keep up the servers as close to 24/7 as possible. Blizzard is not your mother. Being your mother is not a good business practice. A server with a few hours downtime a day is a server which no-one will play on. This is so obvious I am pretty convinced you're trolling now.
The old PvP grind wherein the only way to rank 14 weapons or even ank 12 and rank 13 armor was poopsocking and/or account sharing for months on end? And you would vote to bring this back? Totally trolling.
You're being a little harsh. There were legitimate ways of doing the grind. Those ways begin and end with server caps, but they existed nonetheless. This is off-topic, but BGs were/are better than arenas in my view. And now I'm shutting up before this gets derailed further!
Why can't blizzard leave raiding for the hardcore and PvP for the Casual?
Originally Posted by _Retribute_
Raiding gear won't let you obliterate people in PvP anymore, which is stupid
Originally Posted by _Retribute_
Casuals shouldn't be rewarded with the same shit as the people that play hardcore and almost devote their life to WoW.
For me being casual was enough for MC/BWL/AQ and 7 bosses in Naxx, when did it change so that only the hardcore should raid. Why would people feel rewarded if they PVP for gear but whenever they feel like it Raiders can play and obliterate the pvp'ers. That just means that you need to raid to pvp and we have all ready been given good reasons why not.
Status symbols can vary in their effects of course, I received many tells when running around with Ashkandi and yet I dont think I received a single one while wearing Lok'amir which was just as rare.
TF was an incredible status symbol because 1.) you could see it from a mile away, 2.) it was reasonably hard to get, 3.) getting it required the coordination of an entire guild for a single reward for a single player. The illidan swords are pretty good in this regard, in that they're highly visisble, and reasonably hard to get (for the other 97% of us)... but I'm still dissapointed that they just drop- even a relatively simple 3-4 step turn in quest would have been better (ala ashbringer/ateish?).
It's a good point. My (quite casual) guild made a pretty big deal over the Sulfuras and TF we got. I don't think we were entirely unique in viewing it as being a reflection on the guild as a whole, and we subsidized the mats needed for both weapons (almost entirely, in the case of TF), we put news posts up on our website about it, and we organized a big guild raid out to Silithus for the final step of the TF chain. Having people in IF see someone with our tag wandering around with a legendary meant that people would regard our guild as being cooler. Or so we liked to think, anyhow...
The randomness of the process was a serious issue (collecting 100 "binding fragments" with a 100% droprate would have been better than collecting 2 halves with their actual pathetic droprate), but it was still a workable system. In contrast, I think in TBC everything short of the Illidan swords falls short of that. Is there any loot you'd consider cool enough that you'd stick a screenshot up on your guild website? "Hey guys, guess what! Stabzu picked up a [Heartrazor] today! Be sure to congratulate him!" It doesn't even pass the laugh test.
Thinking about it, the phoenix mount would be an example of the kind of "visible status" that I miss. Cool, unique, highly visible, and it means the wearer (and his guild) have done something cool. The problem, of course, is that it's way too rare and waaay too rare to effectively serve that purpose. (I've seen more legendary bug mounts than I have phoenix mounts. This strikes me as obviously backwards.)
New suggestion: Minipets from end bosses, with a (relatively) high drop chance. Kill Illidan, get....oh, an Ember of Azzinoth minipet. Kill Vashj and you get a miniature Lurker following you around.
Blizzard should just make more time trials or just reward fastest instance clear times on each month with really good and unique loot. Maybe even legendary items with names of top guilds in each realm group in front page of main WoW site. In this sort of scenario there would be a way to be unique even the most highly competative realm groups. Your guild could be that that group of talented people who clear the instance but also do it faster and better then anyone else. This would create healthy competition between the hardcore guilds outside the world first kills.
Blizzard should just make more time trials or just reward fastest instance clear times on each month with really good and unique loot. Maybe even legendary items with names of top guilds in each realm group in front page of main WoW site. In this sort of scenario there would be a way to be unique even the most highly competative realm groups. Your guild could be that that group of talented people who clear the instance but also do it faster and better then anyone else. This would create healthy competition between the hardcore guilds outside the world first kills.
I think this would preoccupy a lot of Blizzard's time in re-tuning a lot of redundant (for most people) instances which is definitely better spent elsewhere...unless you think people deserve new rewards for being able to dodge the most trash in a given run.
edit: maybe you meant raids too? edited to clarify
I was thinking of the other thread which was advocating staggered release dates for new raid content. You could incorporate some of that and titles, and create a nice status system.
For example, if a raid instance comes out, if you beat it within 3 months (or whatever time is appropriate), you get a title. After those three months are up, no more titles are given out.
This way, even the title for beating the lowest level raid dungeon remains rare, even if the armor from that instance does not.
I'm in a rush and have only been able to skim your post and the subsequent ones but this stood out:
Some possible solutions that were thrown about may or may not include;
-Special Titles for killing higher level bosses
-Special Items from quests for killing end bosses
-An achievement page on your character that could list kill credit for bosses
-Visibly different armor for high end sets, differentiating between PVE and PVP accomplishments. I think it is absolutely fair that great PVPers be awarded with unique items as well. Especially with the introduction of resiliance gear, this really is it’s own avenue of advancement now.
-Changing character size depending upon achievements, or total value of item level of the gear you are wearing.
This is something I've been pushing for for a while now. Made quite a few forum suggestion posts on it too. I find to frankly absurd that my Druid who has barely done any arena since it started (<100 games) has a Duelist title or something like that whilst clearing all T4 or T5 or T6 content gives you nothing.
And its not even like in the old days where you knew who had killed bosses. You'd see them running around in BGs melting faces with their Atiesh and T3 gear or MoM etc... The point is you could identify a progressed Nax raider on sight from 30 yards away.
The arena sets looking like the Tiered sets was THE worse idea ever. Its completly trashed this ability to recognise raiders on sight. Look in Orgrimarr and almost EVERY druid looks like they wear T5 now, yet most of it is S2 gladiator stuff.
Special items for quests for killing bosses is good too. I've been campaigning to get more lore and quests into raiding dungeons (you found me out, I'm a lore fanboi) for a while now and this seems a great way to add more uniqueness and identifiability to those who have accomplished this.
The Champion of the Naruu is a nice start in this direction but more would be great. I can think of ones of the top of my head in 10 seconds:
Exalted with all heroic dungeons: Adventurer Vaccine
Karazhan cleared: Apprentice Vaccine (from the Violet Eye, fits with their snobbish theme )
Gruul kill: Vaccine the Gronnkiller (play on gruuls name)
Lady Vashj kill: Earth Warden Vaccine (title gifted by CC)
Kael kill: Vaccine, Hero of the Naruu (the next step from champion)
Archimonde kill; Vaccine, Custodian of Time
Illidan kill: Vaccine, Bane of the Betrayer
If you add quests in you can also get some cool stuff. Phoenix mounts for kael killers rather than a rare drop would have been nice. Maybe a permanant Fallen disguise (like in the Al'ar quest) upon getting exalted with Ashtounge. Flames of Azzinoth pet for killing Illidan. A trinket that does nothing except show fireballs floating around you for Kael kill (like the ones he has). This sort of stuff is very visual and identifies the top raiders at a glance, just like the Arena drakes do for PvPers.
Now adding ones in for kara, gruul etc.. may be a bit much and flood the server with these titles but I see so many from PvP that I don't think it really matters. If its an issue you could move it to Magtheridon who is kind of the end boss of Tier 4 content. Might give newer guilds a reason to kill him rather than move onto Solarian, VR, Lurker, Hydross who are all easier than him these days.
The acheivement page is really nice and not only that, were it insepctable I'd find it a very useful tool for recruitment. The number of times I get applicants with "Nax on farm" in their past experience box when it later turns out they meant "Anub killed twice" is a lot.
The size idea is not bad. The problem enters once more with scaling and the wiping the slate clean. If you don't do this you'll have Godzilla size taurens running round. It feels very Warhammer Online to me though and I think the other solutions are more elegant. It doesn't nessecarily fit for mage to grow tons of muscle and height when going up iLvl for example.
Status symbols can vary in their effects of course, I received many tells when running around with Ashkandi and yet I dont think I received a single one while wearing Lok'amir which was just as rare.
That could have something to do with Askhandi looking like a cross between bad ass and pain whilst Lok looked like...a sex toy.
10/22/07, 1:14 AM
There is nothing unique about my character(s) that make me stand out in a crowd, no shining achievements that no one else on my server (or at least very few people) have. It's really quite depressing, that I've spent years playing this game just to be like everyone else.
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