I'm looking at : http://wowjutsu.com/vault/raids/bt/illidan/
Scroll down the list, and see the warglaives (32837), and see : [Warglaive of Azzinoth]
* 31x Mainhand, owned by 100% rogues(100% combat spec), 0% warriors
* 28x Offhand, owned by 100% rogues(100% combat spec), 0% warriors

Now, as a rogue i obviously wholeheartedly agree with this, however i'm curious behind the reasoning that other guilds use.
Both weapons being 109 DPS, surely any fury warrior would be producing massive ammounts of saliva at the mere thought of owning these, or not?

Are there better alternatives for warriors?
Is the upgrade for warriors very small compared to rogues? (1.4 sec offhand with huge amounts of haste is just.. insane)
Is the increased threat simply better managed by your rogues? Would warriors have threat issues?
Do warriors prefer 2 weapons of equal speed due to flurry mechanics? Such as [Syphon of the Nathrezim]
Are all endgame warriors using 2H MS spec with [Cataclysm's Edge] ?

As a rogue, swapping the Talon+S2 sword -> 2x warglaives shows about 163 DPS increase according to http://rogue.raidcal.com/ (post haste nerf)
What would be the estimate increase a warrior could expect?

I'm curious, if your guild has managed to defeat illidan, why have the rogues been given the Warglaive and not your fury warrior?
Or rather, why have no warriors bothered to roll or pay dkp for this item?

There's several fury warriors with them as well.

That statistics ought to be wrong. First hand knowledge: The World of Warcraft Armory

But i agree on the general idea of threat-capping for the warriors pre-2.3. The rogues aggro-dump is just far more efficient, you dont have to rebuff them after

The question about offhand speed. In Theory, in most cases 2 of the 3 flurry hits will be aten by the offhand. This can be controversly discussed if its bad due to the smaller damage range, lower crits, proc benefit etc.

For rogues its perfect, fast offhand, slow mainhand. You get a really good offhand for combat potency proc and a slow mainhand for sinister strike or hemo.

From pure pve view, the gain is bigger for a rogue than a warrior. But the decision is rather being made by the Guild Master / Raid Leader or DKP-System in most cases.


edit: Great, he is in 2hand pvp gear.

At first glance the set does look to be mainly aimed at rogues due to the fact that SS or hemo spamming requires a very slow mainhand, 2.8 being about the slowest you can get at that level.
And the 1.4 speed offhand would produce crazy amounts of Combat Potency, or poison procs.
PPM effects are also increased when using a slow weapon.
As far as i know rogues are also more dependant on spamming instant attacks with their mainhand than warriors are, is heroic strike still used as a rage dump?

The reason i mentioned flurry was because (as mentioned by one of our warriors) supposedly flurry can produce 4 hasted hits instead of 3, if both your weapons are of equal speed.
Obviously i can't test this, but that'd mean 1 hit would have 30% extra speed/dps.
Where with a 1.4 vs 2.8 speed weapon that would only occur half the time.
Perhaps a fury warrior could give insight into this mechanic?

Apparantly 1 rogue legendary wasn't enough so they added 2 more. Yes I'm a bitter old cow this morning.

I think threat capping is a big issue in this. With guilds gearing up and waiting for the Sunwell to grab world firsts they are trying to optimise their raid as best posssible. A rogue with these can do the maximum potential DPS without risk of pulling aggro whereas a Warrior may struggle pre 2.3. But as said plenty of warriors have them too, I think its mainly guild mechanics.

Just do what our guildleader DPS warrior does, use soulstone as a threat-dump works fine :P We aren't quite at the warglaives level though :P I also didn't quite understand the reasoning for putting in that kind of legendary combo and I'm sure a warrior can put them to good use as well as I've seen armory profiles with them on warriors.

For us it was partly threat issues (our fury warrior at the time was virtually always threat capped rather than damage capped) and that the rogue who got them has 100% attendance while our DPS warriors have never been the most reliable bunch (as shown by both the DPS warriors who were raiding with us quitting since the first illidan kill). I would've liked to have seen the warglaives on a tauren though.

The rogue who got them is also guild/raid leader, so he kinda deserved it anyway. We don't use a DKP system, so there was no mucking around in that respect.

I would guess threat->damage and that rogues (in general) do more damage total is the normal reason why there's a lot more rogues around with them than warriors.

I think you are overestimating the value of 10 % more threat reduction. The reasons rogues don't pull aggro is vanish, not having 29 % passive aggro reduction. A warrior going all out (-> spamming cleave/heroic strike) will still hit a cap pretty quickly unless you support your MT beyond what is usual (at least to my knowledge most raids don't put a shaman in the MT group nowadays for example).

Um, which is the first one? It's not Sulfuras and it's very unlikely to be Thunderfury. Giving a massive threat boost to a DPS class rather than a tank is hardly optimal.

As said above, fury warrior would kill himself with those. That is the only reason you see rogues exist Because warriors are threat capped.

10% less threat or rather 7% as 0.7x0.7=51% while it was 0.8x0.7=44% before, will not help that much. Yes there is also buff to devastate etc. but what dps warrior would really need is aggro reset - but then you could as well delete rogues from game.

Probably a rogue can benfit from the glaives a hunch more, I would rather want a slow-offhand as a dw-warrior and then its the treath-issue, and sometimes you might be bored with dw and go 2hander. Personally if I was a rogue and a warrior got the glaives in my guild, I would want him to maintain to raid as much as before and use the glaives.

Ok if the person is a hardcore dualwielder no problems, but just to see him/her get the glaives and then go spec 2h slam would just seems like an insult to me.

Whirlwind change for 2.3 conforts in giving the Warglaives of Azzinoth to a rogue.
New whirlwind will hit the target with both weapons, which means you'd better have 2 slows weapons than a quick main-hand and a slow offhand (making the whirlwind less "rage efficient").

And finally there were people that got the bindings before anyone knew how good a tanking weapon Thunderfury would be. I can remember the many discussions I had with random people about how weak a legendary Thunderfury was when the basic stats were known but the item wasn't attainable yet since BWL wasn't released yet, very few people at the time had anticipated how good the proc was.

Basically what Dukes said. Any rogue worth his salt could handle the aggro and wring some truly sick DPS from TF. Guess you weren't one of them.


I agree. It seems counter productive to add Legandary over normal weapons because they don't bring anything positive and do bring some negative. As said if they were just an epic set that dropped from him they'd still look as cool, still be as coveted and still rock the DPS charts. They just create a lot of problems in distribution and how you add them. Also, though not a gameplay subject really, the lore tends to focus on heroes weapons if they are a melee class, but on their magic casting abilities if they are a caster class, so those guys get left in the cold a little.

Considering I was a mage up until TBC, wielding TF would indeed have been pretty silly. I've only ever come across it in the context of being a tanking weapon - and apparently one that's still usable into SSC, which for a MC item is just sick.

Why? How does it not benefit every single person in your raid if your rogues are all sporting legendary weapons? Sure it means you have absolutely no chance to possibly catch up to them in dps, but so what?

Legendaries ARE a status symbol, the issue does not lie in the fact that having them drop is counter productive and do not bring anything positive. The issue lies in the fact that a guild downing Illidan twice could conceivable get a full set, while the guild that has been farming Illidan for 3 months hasn't seen any yet.

Atiesh was done in a much better way. 40 items needed, not THAT uncommon of a drop, so any guild that puts the time in would get enough splinters to start the "meaty" of the quest. While drops like TF were so rare we farmed MC for a year and never completed one, yet know 2 guilds that had 2, one of which completed a TF in their first ever MC clear to Domo. This is the problem, not legendaries in general. It should be something you can work towards, luck should only make it a bit faster, not decide entirely if you get it or not.

I am really surprised so many people are posting that legendaries bring nothing positive to this game. Are people so selfish that the idea is "If I can't have it, why should you!" ? Do you not see the benefit of your melee DPS being able to put out even more dps? There has been rumour (confirmed now I believe?) of a hunter legendary comming out soonish, maybe in The Sunwell. Why would this be a problem for anyone? Sure, maybe you have 1 hunter in your raid... and? Now he hits harder. This is bad for everyone else...how?

Item color (green, blue, purple, orange) reflects how common an item is, nothing more. Orange means its really really really rare. Why would coloring them purple make a difference?

With the 2.3 changes reducing fury threat, a lot of people have mentioned the WW change as being the main reason they are better for rogues. However, I'd like to see the math on that...WW is a fairly small component of a fury warrior's damage pre-2.3, and adding an extra offhand hit every ~10 secs (depending on spec) isn't really that huge. I wonder which is actually more dps?

Anyway, our guild uses a "who's been around longer and has better attendance and does pro things a lot, etc." type method for legendaries and other such things. I was first on the warglaive list despite us having a great rogue. However, I hate the idea of having loot like this assigned to me even if people think I deserve it, so I declined. (we're at 8/9 bt)

Assume: 3500AP extra (250DPS)
Warglaive: 109.3DPS, 1.4 speed
Syphon: 100.2DPS, 2.8 speed

359.3*1.4*0.625 = 314.4
350.2*2.8*0.625 = 612.85
Average difference: ~300

Total approximate DPS loss without armour factors: 30ish.

Yeah I remember seeing druid with ragna hammer also. Everything is possible, and using fair DKP to give stuff for anyone who wants it is most likely the case. No, it may not be the best option to move forward in pure DPS meaning. But it may be good option to keep people motivated. There is always the loot drama factor but lets be honest, its all case sensitive and there is no right answer to all guilds if Glaives should go to Rogues instead of Warriors.

A moonkin druid on my server got his guild's first Rag hammer. Yes, the guild was insane, and that druid was even more insane, including split personalities and other interesting tidbits.

Assuming imp beserker stance is additive with zerker stance which is likely given how other classes abilities work. This isn't certain though.
1/0.7/0.8= 1.7857 1.7657 dps per 1 threat
1/0.7/0.7= 2.0407 2.0407 dps per 1 threat
2.0407/1.7857=1.1428 how much it improved by

In other words if you were threat capped at 1000 dps before you can do now do 1142 dps for the same threat. Or to put it more blunty you get a 14% increase to the amount of damage you can do before threat cap. Or to put it even more blunty don't [deleted] compare the absolute value of numbers that you are going to take the [deleted] inverse of.

As for sweet legendaries, how many people remember the moonkin leader of a guild who demanded she be given the hammer or she would harm herself?

Or perhaps a thread devoted to these issues could give insight...

[Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?

I chose page three, because about 2/3 the way down the page with testing numbers that contradict the "extra attack from weapons of the same speed" theory. In the chart with the yellow row, look at the line called "% extra attacks". If same speed weapons got bonus attacks, you'd see a much higher number in the columns where MH = OH speed.