the overall bias against rogues by the "unenlightened" (there I go with the quotes again) caused more of an uproar and prompted swifter action than you would have seen had it been, say, a shaman only item that increased their dps by 20% or so.
I actually think that with the general WoW community, it's the opposite way around. Almost every single major patch, there are 50+ page rogue threads whining about how they will never be invited to raids anymore, or how casters are creeping up on their DPS, or how they're useless here or there. This has been happening on the rogue forums forever (With the predictions never coming true).
On the opposite hand, I never saw, and highly doubt there was tons of "outrage" on the forums when something like <2% of the WoW population had even seen BT. I just think the devs saw the numbers rogues were starting to put out, and realized that they were crazy, and could only get crazier in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some "bias" to see that rogue's damage was scaling way too well.
Another thing is that there has rarely been a single item (we'll treat a Warglaive pair as a single unit, since there's not a tremendous difference with only one) that made such a huge difference in damage for ANY class. Sulfuras was a great weapon, but it was quickly eclipsed by Ashkandi and Mace Spec was crappy. Atiesh was the best caster weapon in the game, but caster classes don't benefit as much from weapon-slot upgrades as melee (makes sense since the weapon slot is just stats for a caster) and half the point of the staff was its party-wide passive aura. Only Thunderfury gave the sort of jaw-dropping boost the Warglaives do, whether it was on a tank or melee DPS. And what do Thunderfury and the Warglaives have in common? They were both heavily nerfed once it became clear what was possible with them.
The mace itself was never nerfed to my knowledge. MS Warriors were generally nerfed because at that point a geared MS Warrior with a healer was an unstoppable killing machine in PvP. Even in hindsight I don't think Sulfuras was overpowered...if anything it was a decent idea for a Legendary. Status symbol that reflected your commitment and your guild's advancement, awesome PvP toy, but not a game-changing boost to raid performance or DPS. It was made obsolete by the end of the next dungeon (Ashkandi). Also, MS Warriors were never the top DPS class...our Sulfuras Warrior never beat out the geared Rogues with Perdition's Blade.
I actually think that with the general WoW community, it's the opposite way around. Almost every single major patch, there are 50+ page rogue threads whining about how they will never be invited to raids anymore, or how casters are creeping up on their DPS, or how they're useless here or there. This has been happening on the rogue forums forever (With the predictions never coming true).
On the opposite hand, I never saw, and highly doubt there was tons of "outrage" on the forums when something like <2% of the WoW population had even seen BT. I just think the devs saw the numbers rogues were starting to put out, and realized that they were crazy, and could only get crazier in the future. It doesn't take a rocket scientist or some "bias" to see that rogue's damage was scaling way too well.
Every class whines on it's own boards about impending nerfs to their class or buffs to another class.
I do recall a very lengthy thread on the wow raid forums where someone posted a WWS link to a fight where Furi topped out over 2k dps (maybe it was 2.5k) that generated quite a bit of uproar. It wasn't long after this that they hotpatched windfury (which hurt arms warriors probably the worst) and announced changes to haste, sword spec, dst and the glaives.
I don't recall the same happening when the caster sets came out, though I do remember some people complaining about them and I saw the increase in damage the casters in Fusion did compared to the melee. They announced a nerf to these and there was a lot of outrage in response to that. So much so that they backed off and never instituted it.
It's all perspective. We don't all see the same things from our point of view and it's colored by our own perceptions to a varying degree. I happen to think there is validity to my position, others may disagree, and that's fine. Were the warglaives overpowered? Probably, and they probably needed a nerf. Not having them I can't speak authoritatively on that, I can only make a semi-educated guess based on the numbers I've seen from parses. I would be curious to see if any warriors were able to put up fantastic numbers with these pre-nerf, and if not, why. This might be a topic of discussion more in line with the originator's intent of this post instead of a derailment into the differing aspects of melee dps vs. caster dps and our individual perceptions of the two.
Are rogue raid spots in trouble due to the haste, dst, and warglaive nerf? Not in a guild that's farming BT/Hyjal. Since that's the category I fall into that's the only one I'm going to comment on.
I do want to make one final point in regards to the synergy between melee dps and the buffs available to them. It's a two edged sword. Because I, as a rogue, gain so much from the available buffs, in order to do the best I can do and pump out the most dps I can (which is pretty much my only function within the current raiding environment if you discount kicking on RoS and Council) I absolutely MUST have all the buffs available to do my job. I'd much rather have higher individual dps and be less dependent on others to do top dps than the way it is currently. Solo in SMV I can do between 700 and 900 dps without using cooldowns. Blowing cooldowns I can burst up to 1300 or so for a very short period of time. Fully buffed with an enhance shaman in group, warrior and a feral druid I can sustain 1700 on most boss fights and pull upwards of 1900 or so if I get a good run. We are talking more than double my solo damage due to being in the right group. I'd rather do more solo dps and be less reliant on others to perform at my best.
Well that's great for you, but if that were the case (as it was pre-TBC for the most part) then hybrid classes would have no purpose in raiding. I really don't get what point you're trying to make...as a hybrid class myself I really like the idea that some classes do less personal damage but bring a lot of group buffs to the table in order to make up what they lack in raw personal output. It's a system that allows for a lot of diversity in specs and playstyles, and in TBC I think it's really worked. You see tons of players of every spec imaginable and I can only conclude that it's good for the game. In a world where you do a ton of personal DPS that's not much modified by your group composition, every Shaman Paladin Priest and Druid is forced to be a healbot.
Well that's great for you, but if that were the case (as it was pre-TBC for the most part) then hybrid classes would have no purpose in raiding. I really don't get what point you're trying to make...as a hybrid class myself I really like the idea that some classes do less personal damage but bring a lot of group buffs to the table in order to make up what they lack in raw personal output. It's a system that allows for a lot of diversity in specs and playstyles, and in TBC I think it's really worked. You see tons of players of every spec imaginable and I can only conclude that it's good for the game. In a world where you do a ton of personal DPS that's not much modified by your group composition, every Shaman Paladin Priest and Druid is forced to be a healbot.
It can even be more simply put:
If everyone just kept thinking of themselves, you'd have 25 DPS specs in the raid.
Terrified. Mortified. Petrified. Stupefied... by you!
There's also something to be said, though, of the additional stress it puts on your raid comp. Hybrids are great and all, but where does that second enh shaman go? Or if you have 3 rogues, a fury warrior, an enh shaman, and a ret pally, what then?
While I enjoy hybrid specs being useful for the reasons Ghando mentioned, it's also a pain in the ass sometimes to have to build the raid around specific group comps, or risk having some dead weight in there.
There's also something to be said, though, of the additional stress it puts on your raid comp. Hybrids are great and all, but where does that second enh shaman go? Or if you have 3 rogues, a fury warrior, an enh shaman, and a ret pally, what then?
While I enjoy hybrid specs being useful for the reasons Ghando mentioned, it's also a pain in the ass sometimes to have to build the raid around specific group comps, or risk having some dead weight in there.
That's true. The idea of hybrids buffs works as long as you get the perfect setup in raids. If you run with 4 rogues, a feral, a fury warrior and an enhancement, like we do normally, 2 of those are cursed to do lower dps than what their class is capable of.
Which makes me go back to whining about the concept of groups of 5 instead of 6 unlike almost every other MMO out there. If anything, one of the wishes i have as raid leader is that they increase the group slots to 6, or the concept of cross class buffs will not work efficiently.
An innate bias against rogues? That's completely you being emotional and having a completely skewed point of view.
Any rational caster denounced the tailoring sets as being completely overpowered and requiring nerfs, look at my very old posts, I did because they were and are still too good. I still wear my full FSW and my guild just killed Archimonde, and I replaced spellstrike only after we killed Vashj.
It is a lot more important to be extremly powerful in the endgame than to be extremly powerful levelling up or in mid-tier raids. Every single min/maxer would rather choose a class that sucked in mid-level raids but dominated high end raids.
Rogues were targetted for nerfs since the high end damage that melees do at higher gear levels far outpaces anything any caster can do right now. In the interest of full disclosure, I went from doing 800 DPS in Gruul/early SSC to 1100 DPS now raiding in BT, while rogues went from doing 700 DPS to doing 1600 DPS. That kind of scaling is not healthy for the game.
That's true. The idea of hybrids buffs works as long as you get the perfect setup in raids. If you run with 4 rogues, a feral, a fury warrior and an enhancement, like we do normally, 2 of those are cursed to do lower dps than what their class is capable of.
Which makes me go back to whining about the concept of groups of 5 instead of 6 unlike almost every other MMO out there. If anything, one of the wishes i have as raid leader is that they increase the group slots to 6, or the concept of cross class buffs will not work efficiently.
This is a problem I saw coming shortly before we added an enchancement shaman to the raids, we had a very melee heavy set-up to begin with, so adding something that's complimentry to melee would seem like a good thing. Except for the fact you're either going to have to:
1. Only have 3 rogues per raid, and always have 1 sit out.
2. Always have the lowest performer sit out of the melee group. This, while being the most beneficial option to the raid's DPS due to the scaling enchancement Shamans give to rogues, but also causes a big morale loss to the one considered the lower performer.
3.Alternate between who's in the melee group each raid. Not having the best performers in the melee group will offer less overall DPS to the raid, and that defeats the point of having an enchancement Shaman in the first place...to max a raid's DPS. Doesn't it?
An innate bias against rogues? That's completely you being emotional and having a completely skewed point of view.
Any rational caster denounced the tailoring sets as being completely overpowered and requiring nerfs, look at my very old posts, I did because they were and are still too good. I still wear my full FSW and my guild just killed Archimonde, and I replaced spellstrike only after we killed Vashj.
It is a lot more important to be extremly powerful in the endgame than to be extremly powerful levelling up or in mid-tier raids. Every single min/maxer would rather choose a class that sucked in mid-level raids but dominated high end raids.
Rogues were targetted for nerfs since the high end damage that melees do at higher gear levels far outpaces anything any caster can do right now. In the interest of full disclosure, I went from doing 800 DPS in Gruul/early SSC to 1100 DPS now raiding in BT, while rogues went from doing 700 DPS to doing 1600 DPS. That kind of scaling is not healthy for the game.
I think you need to re-read my posts. I'll point out once again that I'm sure a majority of the posters on this forum work to be open-minded and fair, and my comments about a bias againsts rogues (or melee in general) wasn't directed at anyone posting here. That initial comment was my impression about the general WoW community and I said to take it with a grain of salt.
However, when TBC came out there were several anti-melee components that were designed in. Just look at the design of the instances from the five mans on up at the initial release. How many anti-melee components were in the game and then later removed or toned down because they were overly harsh? Why design around those in the first place unless you are intentionally trying to limit the amount of melee in a group/raid. Couple that with the lack of changes to the caster sets and the swiftness of the changes to multiple items (instead of just the suspect ones) to pull melee damage down. I don't think the devs "hate" rogues (or melee classes), but the retarded anti-melee encounters and trash that existed initially could have lead one to the conclusion that they were trying to limit their usefulness.
I don't want to get into too deep a discussion of melee haste vs. caster haste, but I will say that it's apples vs. oranges. Melee haste affects white damage (primarily) that is not impacted by the GCD while caster haste is the opposite. They should not be charged the same in regards to ilevel because melee haste is more powerful (in my opinion) so it should have a higher cost. Melee haste should be balanced against hit, since due to the itemization you have to sacrifice one to get the other. Saying that melee haste and caster haste should be identical is showing a lack of understanding in how the two impact their target classes. They cannot be compared on a one to one basis. (This is a response to a post earlier about melee haste, not the quoted post.)
I'm going to challenge your numbers a bit based on my experience (feel free to look at Fusion web stats, that's what I'm drawing these numbers from). Looking at non-aoe fights in SSC going back as far as July (we were in BT, working on Gorefiend) I see our mages pulling 1000 - 1200 dps, while as a dagger rogue I was pulling about the same. I'd like to be able to see parses further back (they've rolled off), but I do know that I was doing around 700 dps on Patchwerk at 60 in Nax, so your claim that rogues went from 700 dps in SSC is incorrect, unless it was a seriously undergeared rogue. On current fights in BT mages are pulling 1300-1500 dps while the rogues are doing 1600-1900 (sometimes over 2k depending on the nature of the fight). Rogues definitely scaled better, but not to the degree you are trying to say in your post. Note I compared rogues to mages, not shadow priests, since mages (and warlocks) are our primary casting class dps competitors. I know very little about shadow priests and how they scaled, but I do know that the mana regen you guys give to caster classes is invaluable, and might be part of the reason your damage doesn't scale as well as mage damage did, that would be a question for the dev team. They seem to balance dps vs. utility, which is one argument for rogues being top dps since we have no group buffs and very little utility outside of our damage.
Personally, I think rogues are fairly well balanced against the caster classes right now, so I don't think I'm being overly emotional in my statements.
Im only really replying to the OP since that was my reasoning for even entering this thread. Can't take the time to read every post here at work (This is gonna take me long enough to write up) so sorry if I repeat what has already been said.
My guild has had a dilema on who would get our second set (we havn't got a MH yet, but this is assuming we get another OH). It's between a fury warrior and a rogue that have equal attend, skill, etc. We're leaning heavily towards the rogue now and the reasoning is pretty clear cut.
Now I am a rogue so I guess this may seem bias, but I really did try to see if a warrior could gain as much use out of the weapons. Sorry, I couldn't really find much failed.
I'll start my reason with PvE improvemnts that have to do with basically the proc and offhand itself. Rogues have Combat Potency, the offhand is the fastest weapon in the game (good weapon) and with the haste proc and other haste abilities the amount of energy regen would be an insane DPS boost. The other thing we get with haste and this is just my logical speculation, I may be incorrect, is more Sword Spec procs aswell as poison procs. SS/Poison procs makes up a good deal of our DPS which will also be effected by the haste proc and speed of the offhand weapon.
I've also been told that rage generation really isn't a problem for fury Warriors, so the haste for them would just be a straight up white damage increase and not much more (correct me if I am wrong there). Fury Warriors wouod also have a pretty substantial threat problem. Now I know your getting your threat to drop in 2.3, but speaking as a rogue even with vanish I get threat capped myself, or close to it. On certain fights I have to feint a few times while waiting for my Vanish to actually come back up, that or take it easy for the first 10-20% not going all out so I can use my vanish a bit further into the fight (and I don't even have a MH yet). Without vanish there is no way a fury warrior will not get threat capped on a good deal of fights, which makes it a bit of waste quite frankly. O and my tank has good threat on most fights, with 2 MDs, he wears a large amount of block gear to actually increase threat so lets not use that as an excuse =P
Now especially with the new Hemo ability getting revised to 125% weapon damage, the Mainhand will be insane as a Hemo weapon (unless they normalize Hemo of course). Regardless to rogues having hemo as a good enough reason to want the MH or combo, rarely will Warriors, even using Twin Blades, be Fury for PvP. MS would just be kinds stupid to give up honestly. Rogues on the other hand would gain great use out of this in PvP aswell as they would PvE. So even though I think the guilds best interest is to look for PvE first, this is a secondary reason why yet again a rogue would make better use of the swords.
As I've said, id love to find a good reason to award fury warriors to compete for this item with similar skilled/dedicated rogues, but it doesn't seem like it would be in the best interest of the guild. The fury warriors will get theirs (atleast in our guild eventually) if they drop, but rogues definitely seem to be the popular first choice to recieve the weapons for a reason.
Award it on the basis of individual player merit not classes. Any argument that is based on 'my class' instead of 'me' is bound to be stupid, because individual contributions are a lot more important than someone feeling entitled because of the class he chose to make.
Your perspective on rogues versus caster balance are completely the opposite of mine so I will leave it at that, but if you think that the nerfs were due to emotional arguments instead of looking at the numbers and drawing conclusions we probably disagree fundamentally on what makes a class balanced.
Edit:
Hemo is normalized. You cannot argue that you should get the weapons because of combat potency and in the same breath argue about how it would be a great weapon for hemo.
Edit:
Hemo is normalized. You cannot argue that you should get the weapons because of combat potency and in the same breath argue about how it would be a great weapon for hemo.
The Warglaives are perfect for both Combat Swords AND Combat Hemo, I don't really see the contradiction in the above arguement, both specs are completely viable in a raid setting in 2.3
I'll start my reason with PvE improvemnts that have to do with basically the proc and offhand itself. Rogues have Combat Potency, the offhand is the fastest weapon in the game (good weapon) and with the haste proc and other haste abilities the amount of energy regen would be an insane DPS boost. The other thing we get with haste and this is just my logical speculation, I may be incorrect, is more Sword Spec procs aswell as poison procs. SS/Poison procs makes up a good deal of our DPS which will also be effected by the haste proc and speed of the offhand weapon.
We had similiar discussion regarding who would get our first warglaive. It was between three rogues and a fury warrior. I knew a rogue would be better off with it, but the difference wasn't enough for us to prevent the warrior from having a chance at it. We hadn't really talked about being threat capped. I'm actually going to go ahead and say that a warrior will only be threat capped with the warglaives on Bloodboil and RoS, and warriors pull aggro on RoS anyways.
When 2.3 came out, the warrior simply said "I don't want it anymore". The combat potency advantage was there, combined with the 2.3 note that warrior whirwlind will hit with both weapons, convinced our warrior that a slower offhand might be better than a fast one.
The warglaives are probably still going to be the best dps weapons for a fury warrior, but they're much better off on a rogue especially with the coming changes.
The Warglaives are perfect for both Combat Swords AND Combat Hemo, I don't really see the contradiction in the above arguement, both specs are completely viable in a raid setting in 2.3
Award it on the basis of individual player merit not classes. Any argument that is based on 'my class' instead of 'me' is bound to be stupid, because individual contributions are a lot more important than someone feeling entitled because of the class he chose to make.
Your perspective on rogues versus caster balance are completely the opposite of mine so I will leave it at that, but if you think that the nerfs were due to emotional arguments instead of looking at the numbers and drawing conclusions we probably disagree fundamentally on what makes a class balanced.
Edit:
Hemo is normalized. You cannot argue that you should get the weapons because of combat potency and in the same breath argue about how it would be a great weapon for hemo.
I don't get your contridictions. I never said it would be based purely on class, the senario in my guild that I gave were that 2 equally deserving people are up for the weapons and we choose the rogue over the warrior in the long run after reviewing class analysis. The guild raids to raid and defeat content, if your guild wants to give archimonde bows to melee b4 hunters thats fine, but its not in the best interest for you guild. True that exaple is a bit harsh, but Illidan legendaries are better for rogues flat out, understand that. If its between two equal deserving people and one is a warrior the other is a rogue, the rogue should get it, at least thats the way we see it (we = the majority).
As for the Hemo being normalized, I said that may be true. Regardless do warrior PvP as fury? I also didn't mention this in "the same breath" it was a secondary reason and not a major one at that.
Most people are trying to be a bit open minded here, as well as myself. Im open to suggestive critisim, but id be cool if it was a bit more of a general perspective.
edit: Id add Teron Gorefiend to the list of threat cap encounters, assuming you don't get ghosted of course. Notice all these fights are straight up all out DPS fights, other fights have gimics that make you either stop dps for a period of time, switch to another gimic of the encounter, or an aggro dump. So basically any fight that allows you to make full all out use of your gear/consumables you'd be threat capped as a warrior.
Also since WW will now hit with the offhand I assume warriors will prefer to have a slower offhand. Simply put, practically every guild has a combat raiding rogue doing top damage. Not every guild has a furry warrior doing top damage (Because they are busy dressing in animal suits etc). Also, Vanish.
"Threat capped" is really not a valid argument in this discussion, since it's so different from guild to guild and extremely dependant on the current tank.
Using this argument to state that rogues are the only proper owners of the Warglaives is simply stupid and ignorant. A fury warrior decked out in the Warglaives along with having a proper tank doing his job will be doing just as fine as a Rogue with the Warglaives.
Also, the Whirlwind argument is rather silly, an instant attack with both weapons every 10 seconds (8 seconds talented) will most likely not justify the use of a slower off-hand over the Warglaive. Not to mention that many fury warriors prefer a faster off-hand, simply because of the smoother rage generation.
combined with the 2.3 note that warrior whirwlind will hit with both weapons, convinced our warrior that a slower offhand might be better than a fast one.
Have you even done the math on this? WW is normalised and also gets offhand penalty, so going going from one of the hardest hitting weapons to a 1.4 speed you only lose 1% dps, if even that. Of course, you'll gain that back from the smoother rage generation it will provide you as well as the fact that you will be able to execute on every gcd. This doesn't even take into account that warglaive is 9dps above the 2nd best offhand.
As to which class can get the most out of it, definitely rogues by far. Simply can't beat the synergy of slow/fast combined with haste effects and an aggro wipe. The gap will be smaller in 2.3 though.
Here's some trivia for you:
First 3 horde guilds to kill Illidan
Nihilum - 21 kills
Last Resort - 20 kills
Curse/MYM - 20 kills
What do they all have in common? Zero warglaives. Nerf them to the ground for all I care, items so horribly distributed like that shouldn't have such a huge effect on guilds' raid dps.
The mace itself was never nerfed to my knowledge. MS Warriors were generally nerfed because at that point a geared MS Warrior with a healer was an unstoppable killing machine in PvP. Even in hindsight I don't think Sulfuras was overpowered...if anything it was a decent idea for a Legendary. Status symbol that reflected your commitment and your guild's advancement, awesome PvP toy, but not a game-changing boost to raid performance or DPS. It was made obsolete by the end of the next dungeon (Ashkandi). Also, MS Warriors were never the top DPS class...our Sulfuras Warrior never beat out the geared Rogues with Perdition's Blade.
Sulfuras was overpowered in PvP. I'm not sure what the debate is about on this one. I have countless vivid mental images of mages dying to our sulfuras warrior on the first swing. I remember once where the mage just died and the game didn't even bother to animate the warrior swinging. It was absurd, funny though...
Sulfuras was overpowered in PvP. I'm not sure what the debate is about on this one. I have countless vivid mental images of mages dying to our sulfuras warrior on the first swing. I remember once where the mage just died and the game didn't even bother to animate the warrior swinging. It was absurd, funny though...
In what way sulfuras overpowered that ash'kandi or rank 14 weapons were not? Mace spec warriors were uncommon, Sulfuras was uncommon, 2 eyes in 56 Ragnaros kills for us, straight from dkp. 10% better than say the next best option does not equate to overpowered. On the other hand the first Thunderfury owner on Blackrock with Paladin in tow could walk into AB/WSG and could and did totally dominate the game.
11/02/07, 4:29 PM
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