Rogues do more damage than Fury warriors. All other things being equal, they gain more from the Warglaives.

Arms Warriors provide more raid DPS than Fury Warriors.

I'm not saying you shouldn't award them to a Fury Warrior. A Fury Warrior can be the correct choice, but not because they gain as much or more than a rogue from the Warglaives. They don't.

If your guild is concerned about maximizing raid DPS than your warrior should be Arms. If your guild is not concerned with maximizing raid DPS than which particular class benefits the most from a given item doesn't really matter, does it?

Seb summed it all up pretty well.

Well put and noted.
Maximizing raid dps is always important, one problem we currently have however is that the main DPS warrior that we use is under the odd impression that fury does a lot more dps than arms.
Stubborn critter that he is, i've been unable to persuade him otherwise.

It might just be something in his playstyle, that he just can't keep up the Slam/MS rotation perfectly enough to outperform the less lag influenced attacks of a fury warrior. But perhaps he just needs some solid math to show him otherwise.
Other than the 93 pages : http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t12386-w...e_dps_warrior/
Or 13 pages : [Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond

Is there any concrete information on why Arms outdamages a Fury spec warrior?
Blood frenzy is obviously a large part in it, but again with him being a stubborn critter i've been unable to drop 2 points in flurry to get that talent back when he still was Arms specced.


On the subject of the Glaives, we've now got Combat, and Hemo specced rogues.
Hemo gains more from the mainhand than combat does(125% weapon damage), while combat gains more from the offhand than hemo would (combat potency).
I'm sure the difference is very marginal to what is optimal, but hemo feels like it should outperform combat even with these weapons.

Fury outdamages arms. Arms however brings blood frenzy which is a fairly large DPS boost to the raid.

That's probably what he sees as well, and is sadly his main focus (topping the meters) while ignoring all other buffs.
And being an officer, i can't just leave him outside the raid because of his spec. He's still among the top5 damage dealers regardless.
So i need to persuade him back into arms, because the other dps warrior we had just doesn't play as much anymore and the raid is thus left without blood frenzy.
I have the same difficulty with getting our hunter officer to spec survival.

Our raid is fairly melee heavy :
1-2 Dps warriors
1-2 Rogues
1-3 BM hunters + 1-3 pets
2 Warrior tanks
1 Enhancement shaman
2 Feral druids
And occassionally a retribution paladin or Demon warlock.
Estimate between 9-15 physical dps targets in the raid.

Oh yeah, Fury definitely does more personal dps than Arms. After you factor in Blood Frenzy though, Arms played correctly beats Fury by quite a decent margin.

Well, I can link a bunch of WWS if you want. Modrack was fury for a long time. After he spec'd Arms and started doing 1800+ dps on encounters like Teron, it was pretty clear Arms was superior. Bloodfrenzy is like 400-500 dps by my quick math. I would guess Modrack's personal dps dropped by about 150-200 on average from the switch.

Does he really have to point you towards the Class Mechanics forums when the threads linked above do it already? Theorycraft and anecdotal evidence(WWS) suggest that a well played MS/Slam rotation is competitive in terms of personal dps with Fury rotations. When factoring in the +4% damage buff to other physical damage classes(Bloodfrenzy, or do I need to prove this too?) one sees a net raid dps increase that is greater than the personal dps differential between the two specs. There are WWS parses with arms warriors cranking out > 1800dps and their fury compatriots doing 2100. You can see with simple math that it only takes four other physical dps classes performing at the same level for the MS warrior's raid-dps benefit to match the differential in personal dps levels. Add another rogue/hunter/fury warrior, and you see that Arms clearly beats Fury. And this is assuming that the other classes are only MATCHING the arms warrior point for point DPS wise, when you have three rogues all topping 2200 dps, and two-three hunters matching them, then the raid benefit of Blood Frenzy is even greater.

It really all depends. I have been able to do pretty much what Angeron said, I have done 2066 dps on Teron as DW fury, and the best ive ever done as arms was 1940, but this was just insane, 1800's is more accurite I think for good arms dps. Now, if your raid is 3 rogues, dps warrior enhance shaman 3 hunters or something, then arms is clearly better. However, our guild runs really caster heavy. Often, we only have 1 hunter, 2 rogues, 1 enhance 1 feral, and then me. so, blood frenzy benafits 5 people. I can do great dps as arms, but I can do greater dps as DW fury. Both are good. I think if we somehow changed to have more physical dps, 33/28 would be the clear choice, but as it stands for us now it doesn't seem to matter which spec I go, either way I do my part of adding a lot of dps.

Eh, so for a melee heavy guild, rogue first makes sense because the war would be 33/28. Melee light, I think it can go either way.

But Cruor, you're missing out on something. If your personal DPS only falls off by 200 when switching to Arms, then you're STILL better off going with Arms, even if only "5 people" benefit. The rogues will likely be doing the same DPS you do (and should be better), the hunter will likely do slightly less DPS than you, and the feral + tanks will also get your buff. I guarantee you that your raid would do more damage if you specced Arms, even if you only pack in 5 physical DPSers.

For example, taking the numbers you threw out there: you do 2000 DPS on Teron. For argument's sake, we'll say the 2 rogues do the exact same damage per second (hah) -- 2000 per. If you'd specced Arms, they'd be doing an extra 60 DPS each, making up for over half the difference in your own personal DPS. Just from the rogues, and just assuming that they do (only) the same DPS you do.

If the raid only brings 1 warrior, he should be Arms, unless there are no other physical DPSers present. The personal DPS difference is not great enough to outweigh the raid-wide boost to all physical DPSers blood frenzy provides.


But we're off topic. Rogues tend to get warglaives because people try to maximize their raid's DPS. Rogues tend to do more DPS (often times much more) than their corresponding DPS warriors. I really think it's as simple as that: maximization.

I'll toss my 2 cents in here...

I'm fury warrior/raid leader and just happen to have the most DKP in our system. So if/when the warglaives drop they could be mine. (we are 3/5, 3/9, so we have a ways to go ATM)

I will be passing the first set to whichever rogue bids the most. And throwing a medium/large sized bid on the second set....huge on the third.

As has been mentioned, if you bring 1 warrior it should be arms, and any warriors after that could/should be fury. Where as arms is a 8-15% personal damage loss, Blood frenzy is about 4% per person that benefits, so if you have 2-4= other physical damage classes with comparable DPS, then Arms is the clear winner. Any raid that doesn't have at least 4 physical dps is....not normal from my experience. Eg. last night in hyjal we ran a fury warrior, feral druid (mostly dpsing but OT on trash) 3 rogues and 2 hunters, which makes 7, or about 3-4 more then needed for the break even point. If i had been Arms over fury i'd likely have seen an overall raid DPS increase of ~4% x 6 physical dps classes (each doing ~1000dps on bosses) for whatever loss i suffered. So if i lost less then 250 DPS, i'd likely have added more raid DPS.

I'd say you have been struck by the RNG God. I have no idea when we exactly downed Illidan the first time, but according to WowJutsu: World of Warcraft Guild Rankings: Destromath > For the Horde: The Black Temple it must have been in the first half of July. Since then we had 3 Mainhands and 1 Offhand. I know of guilds that that had 2 full sets before we got our first offhand in October.

It's really a pity that WowJutsu Vault: World of Warcraft Item Statistics: Main hasnt been updated since late september. I am really curious about the amount of Warglaives that dropped so far and to a certain amount curious how many went to warriors.

I have tried to calculate the effect of Blood Frenzy based on damage the raid is doing, so I can better choose between arms and fury. It's not that easy really since you cannot take a rogue/hunter/ench shaman/warrior/paladin's damage and add 4%. Rogues have poisons, hunters have shots, shamans have stormstrike etc. It's pretty cumbersome to study all the WWS logs to find the psysical damage in the raid. And after that, I don't have the information about the uptime on the Deep Wounds since I don't believe it is 100%.

So I am actually looking for an addon that sums the effect of Blood Frenzy on all psysical dps in the raid when rend/Deep wounds is up. I see this is done for Improved Shadowbolt in the addon Shadowseer, but cannot find anything similar for BF. If I cannot prove that Arms > Fury (raid dps) I will go for Warglaives when we get so far in a few months, since I really like playing Fury better than Arms. Anyone that knows about one?

There's a DPS warrior spreadsheet where you can see potential maximum dps with various weapon setups.

I made an optimum 2h item setup and an optimum warglaive setup - the results? About 1500dps for 2h (cata's edge), about 1600 dps with warglaives.

Assuming you have two rogues in the raid that do the same dps as you without blood frenzy (1500), and 500 of that dps is from poisons (an extreme exaggeration), that's an extra 40 dps apiece they're getting from your buff. Even with a pally tank that holds aggro with spells and doesn't melee at all, no hunters, no felguards, etc, you still bring the same amount to the raid with the blood frenzy that you would with warglaives with 2 rogues and no other physical dps or tanks.

If you only have one dps warrior, it's not even close.

Not to mention all the mitigation benefits from a 3\3 Thunderclap and 3\5 demo spec within the overall arms Blood Frenzy spec. I'd say that it is easily worth it for the talent points it can help clear for your prot warriors not to mention all the great points about raid wide dps above.

Imp Tclap and Imp Demo are just as easy to take as 17/44 as for 33/28, so that's rather moot. I guess you could try to argue that UBW is better for DW, and ergo a bigger loss if you take imp demo, but I think that since they converted it to PPM, it's probably pretty equal, if not better for 2H which (from what I've heard, I haven't tried it for a while except in PvP) is more likely to be rage starved.

Still, Blood Frenzy is stupidly good. My guild currently has 3 DPS warriors, all DW Fury. I permanently feel guilty about not being BF spec, but I just cannot stand 2H in PvE anymore (and I used to be biggest fan of slam way back before it was cool - slam with Sulfuras was good times).