This part of the article stuck out at me the most:
Beck and Wade's research indicates that the need for lateral thinking and the ability to integrate all kinds of different dimensions during games leave their mark.
They found that 80 percent of managers in the US under the age of 35 had significant video game experience and that gamers had a more positive outlook on life than non-gamers. Gamers tended to prefer multitasking to individual assignments, to stave off boredom.
Gamers naturally think outside the box and possess a unique set of skills that have been developed and honed during hours of game play. Beck states that gamers are unique, in that they naturally think about the systems that underlie a game, rather than thinking linearly.
My questions to the EJ community are these: Has MMO leadership experience made you a better leader anywhere else, and why? Have you ever used MMO experience as a way of getting a job or promotion, and how? For those who were already leaders or managers before playing MMOs, what is your outlook on MMOs and how they effect those that choose to lead in them compared to traditional leadership training?
They found that 80 percent of managers in the US under the age of 35 had significant video game experience
This is like saying 90% of people listen to the radio in the car on the way to work. Video games are ubiquitous in the US today and you're hard pressed to find someone in that age group who hasn't played something on a console or PC at some point.
There are a lot of similarities in guild and raid management that you can relate to other leadership tasks; it isn't much of a stretch to think that somebody that leads a pretty successful raiding guild would be a good sports coach or team manager.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I seem to recall a story on slashdot about maybe 9-10 months ago about employers specifically inquiring into guild officer/raid leader status when the subject of video games came up during interviews. Specifically that it was almost considered legitimate "work experience."
No need to look further than farming for Loatheb to equate wow with work!
I've seen this discussion beaten to death in a lot of different environments and my opinion has not changed :
Playing an MMO does not breed leadership skills but requires and identifies them in a person. If you do not have leadership qualities, no matter how many guilds you try and run they will fail and you will not learn anything from it.
The vastly different social dynamics of a game like World of Warcraft versus a governmental or office environment make comparing qualities in people very difficult.
I could go on for pages on this but I'll keep my opinion short and sweet.
Video games are ubiquitous in the US today and you're hard pressed to find someone in that age group who hasn't played something on a console or PC at some point.
Indeed, I wonder how they define significant.
Originally Posted by Stangg
I've seen this discussion beaten to death in a lot of different environments and my opinion has not changed :
I am inclined to agree with your opinions. However, my questions are more specifically about actual experiences in the workplace. Hoping to find someone who's been there, done that. Examples, rather than philosophy, as it were.
To an extent I'd argue that it can hone existing leadership skills or at least add an additional dimension of experience. I've supervised people in a purely professional environment, in quasi-work environments (school publications, law school journal, etc.), and of course led raids in WoW. There are certain common elements, but far more differences.
In one sense, motivating people in WoW can actually be harder than in the workplace. If I tell a subordinate to do something, well, they're going to do it, because they're being paid to and I have the authority to ask that of them. They may not enjoy it, but it's work, and they're not doing it to have fun, they're doing it for a paycheck and potential career opportunities. Even if you aren't exactly an inspirational leader in the office, most people will listen and do what they're told simply because of the work hierarchy. Obviously a good manager will be liked and respected by his employees, but it's possible to manage in the workplace without those elements. But in WoW, you often find yourself trying to persuade people to do things that they may not want to do, in a setting in which you have no true power over them (beyond "I'll /gkick you" which only has any weight if they care about their guild to begin with). That can actually take some measure of interpersonal skills, whereas the "real life" analogue might not.
I don't have firsthand RL experience in this regard, but being a WoW raid leader has struck me as being fairly analogous to being a coach of a sports team. I wonder if anyone who's actually done both would agree.
The vastly different social dynamics of a game like World of Warcraft versus a governmental or office environment make comparing qualities in people very difficult.
I've been shortly a manager in both WoW and RL at the same time and I can say that it's completely impossible to maintain. When you manage stuff, you lose awareness of the time you spend on it. Before you know it, you arrive late at your own raid because you had a late meeting, or you arrive late at your own meeting because you had a late raid. Switching between the two on fixed schedule is impossible, and it starts getting dangerous real fast.
I personally ditched wow-management and kept RL-mgmt (of course), but I sometimes get that "itch" to get back on track in game. It's so much more fun, to be honest.
The two activities are essentially the same. They require essentially the same skills.
Too bad you don't get paid for wow management though.
I don't have firsthand RL experience in this regard, but being a WoW raid leader has struck me as being fairly analogous to being a coach of a sports team. I wonder if anyone who's actually done both would agree.
There are a number of parallels, especially in the sense that one doesn't have any real authority as the coach of a sports team, at least not from the get-go. It's up to you to build respect via your actions and rapport with your players. As in WoW, the only genuine threat you have is to not pick someone for the next game if they fuck about - just as in WoW you can only /gkick someone. Sure, it's a fairly weighty threat, but, unless you're a professional sportsperson, being dropped from a team isn't going to ruin your life, and if you're a good WoW player you can apply to another guild etc.
In another sense, the role of a raid leader is similar to that of a sports coach - you have to be able motivate without being over-zealous, criticize without being demoralizing.
As Praetorian said, I think being a (successful) raid leader in WoW only serves to develop existing leadership skills: if you don't possess any, you will fail at the first hurdle you guild reaches.
Indeed, I've always thought of WoW as more of a volunteer organization, more like a church than a sports team or business, although the dynamics of a raid lend themselves more to a sports team analogy.
But once again, the questions I really want to ask are of those who have been there and done that. My hope is that a few examples could prove enlightening to myself and others, perhaps when that time comes to move on past wow and try doing something more meaningful in the real world.
As to the topic, it's an interesting subject. I'd say that the lateral thinking part along with the engaging part of playing (in contrast to watching the TV) is certainly true, and that there is definitely a skills crossover in some aspects.
MMOs have taught me that I'm a pretty awful leader and that I don't want a management job.
On the other hand, I work for eBay and I'm going to get trained to be a "pink" which is the eBay version of a "blue", aka a community manager forum posty guy.
I don't know how many threads they'll let me respond to with "QQ more" though
Some might already know about the Daedalus Project but I figure it's worth linking here. There are lots of interesting articles on the site, several of which are relevent (in one way or another) to the topic.
Acting out a scenario is a common teaching method.
RPG in wow is not so much pretending to be an orc as it is playing a role in a group where the consequences of your actions are less than in reality so you get to play around with your role and take on things you wouldn't normally try.
I bet it'll have a different impact depending on the personality of the player, you gots to be willing to learn in the first place etc.
Joi Ito has been a big believer in this philosophy for a long time, and has done some really interesting articles, presentations, etc on it that you can find with a minimal amount of googling. Joi Ito's Web: Leadership in World of Warcraft is a post of his from March '06 where he talks about how his guild members, and particularly the people he had placed in leadership positions based on certain qualities he saw in them, exhibit leadership skills equal to people he knows in this business world despite their occupations in real life.
I don't have firsthand RL experience in this regard, but being a WoW raid leader has struck me as being fairly analogous to being a coach of a sports team. I wonder if anyone who's actually done both would agree.
One thing to keep in mind is that you can easily draw a line between "management" and "leadership," with management being the ability to plan and assign time and tasks and so forth, and leadership being the ability to get people to listen to your brilliant ideas. Management is more a skill (trainable) and leadership is more a talent (innate). Raid Leading or Guild Officering can definitely train management skills, although it's a crapton easier if you already have at least a vague idea of what those are: scheduling, guild-bank and dkp management are clear examples of this sort of skillset.
Leadership is being able to get 25 scrubs working together to kill a boss on a friday night when most of them want to get drunnk or naked or both. It's not necessary in the normal workplace so much because the hierarchy gives you that response for free; it is necessary in the upper echelons of corporations where you have to convince trustees or investors that your brilliant idea is, in fact, a brilliant idea, or basically enact some sort of vision.
The time-management and prioritizing of running a guild I think hones management skills, and if you're one of the types who prefers solving a boss instead of killing a boss that's definitely also applicable. Raid Leading is more an activity that highlights good (and bad) leaders. I've found from my personal experience that I like managing when someone else is leading, but in a power vacuum I'm often the first person to say "okay, so..." which is actually all it takes to put me in a leadership position under those circumstances.
I don't think that games can turn someone who lacks the desire or interest in being a leader into such. The MMO generation will probably not turn out inherently more people interested and active in leading capacities than other generations.
What it does do is give people the opportunity to use and hone leadership skills in a larger variety of ways than you could naturally get in a real life social setting.
I'm not a leader. I never have been, and MMOs will not turn me into the kind of person that aggressively puts new ideas and puzzles on the table and takes a group of people n a new and exciting direction. I'm a manager, to use PSGarak's definition of such. I've compared it to diplomacy.
While someone else pushes and pulls groups in a certain direction, I'm the person making calanders for holiday absences, suggesting ways of getting the group moving in the leaders chosen direction, and the "go-to" person for complaints and suggestions for the idea makers. That skill set is also honed in MMOs in a way that you could never get in real life, and applies to real life just as well.
Having first hand experience with a multitude of day to day interactions in a task oriented group setting is invaluable. While real life situations that involve this kind of activity often have long reaching consequences. If you fail to subdue an insurgency through diplomatic means in real life- you have a bigger problem compared to failing to subdue a mutiny in a guild setting. Guilds can be easily reformed. Companies/Countries are not so easy. The basic skills necessary for diplomacy are exercised in very similar ways, however so it becomes easier, with time and experience, to hear what people are not saying and to speak with them in ways that they understand and relate to even if their ways and/or expectations are somewhat foreign to you.
It reminds me, in a way, of the colonization period when sons were occasionally send off to run smaller colonies or as local diplomats. It was considered valuable life experience for those sons who would, with sucess, be brought back to their home country down the line and find themselves stronger leaders/diplomats.
As a world we're running out of small nations to send our future leaders to to "practice". Luckily, we've now got virtual worlds where we can simply keep trying until we learn the lessons that need to be learned.
Those of you who volunteered to be injected with praying mantis DNA, I've got some good news and some bad news.
Bad news is we're postponing those tests indefinitely. Good news is we've got a much better test for you: fighting an army of mantis men.
Pick up a rifle and follow the yellow line. You'll know when the test starts. BSG Quick Reference
To an extent I'd argue that it can hone existing leadership skills or at least add an additional dimension of experience.
In one sense, motivating people in WoW can actually be harder than in the workplace. If I tell a subordinate to do something, well, they're going to do it, because they're being paid to and I have the authority to ask that of them.
Having started playing while I was still an officer in the Army, I definitely had to soften my edge dealing with people in WoW. I was very much used to giving orders and expecting them to be completed with little follow up needed. Leadings raids and dealing with people that have zero commitment to anything really helped expand my toolkit I think, especially now that I'm out of the Army.
As noted by someone else above though, you can't just teach someone to be a leader. They have it or they don't. You can draw out a lot of leadership qualities from people that never exhibited them before, and you can hone the qualities that someone has, but you can't just create those qualities in someone who doesn't have them to begin with. Some people are just destined to be the guy on the factory line and not the guy behind the desk.
I've managed and run a successful racing team staffed with volunteers, I'm in management where I work now, and I've managed and run Karazhan-level raids. I can echo a lot of what has already been said in this thread. Raiding is very much like organizing a volunteer group to do something and there are distinct differences in managing versus leading.
I found a lot of value in Raid-leading in WoW in that you're dealing with a rather constant turn-over of people (at least I was in my casual guild) which led to really helping out my ability to quickly assess a person's qualifications. You can quickly identify the person that's a drama queen, a gossip, lazy, only in it for the loot/money, is power-hungry, etc., etc.. So this skill, at least, is one that I've found valuable in the workplace since it really helps to be able to decide whether or not to hire someone (who you may be relying on to do a task for the next 10 years) based off of talking to them for half an hour in an interview. Ask anyone who's ever said to themselves 'screw it, this person sucks but I NEED a shackle for Moroes' and then chain-wiped for an evening because that priest really sucks if they'd want their decision to haunt them and lower productivity (and ultimately cost them potential raises/promotions) for the next 10 years.
Last edited by Rudi-CO : 10/31/07 at 2:47 PM.
Reason: Too many periods.
As noted by someone else above though, you can't just teach someone to be a leader. They have it or they don't. You can draw out a lot of leadership qualities from people that never exhibited them before, and you can hone the qualities that someone has, but you can't just create those qualities in someone who doesn't have them to begin with. Some people are just destined to be the guy on the factory line and not the guy behind the desk.
Perhaps. However, I would indstead argue that you can very much teach someone to be a leader, but not to enjoy it. Which might amount to the same thing if they have the option of passing the leadership buck, but will have very different results if they're ever in the position where they simply have to lead. The actual tools of leadership are not that difficult to pick up, especially with a competent mentor; finding the will within yourself to aquire or apply them in times of stress seems to have varying levels of difficulty. My experiences with leadership indicate that the job is a position of service, and that it can be grating to greater or lesser extents as a result of the details of that service. I therefor understand why many people are discouraged from seeking or entering positions of leadership; they simply don't find the rewards worth their percieved sacrifice. I don't confuse their decision not to lead with a lack of ability.
Motivated people tend to succeed in most endeavors, including games and leadership. It shouldn't be terribly surprising that there is an overlap. I would certainly say that game-based leadership requires more charisma than job-given leadership, and it hones different skills, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "an overlap clearly indicates that games are good for leaders".
First star to the right, and straight on till morning. in BSG 15
Studies like this always irk me. "Significant" gaming experience.... if someone on these boards posted under a class mechanic that they noted "significant changes" without providing numbers they would be strung up for not providing facts.
Is significant 5-8 hrs a week?? 8-15 hrs?? 30-40 hrs?? Is this in fact a bell curve where people who are the extreme ends are in fact equally unsuited to lead??
Sorry but I'm not buying what they are selling on this one. Surely there are paralels between someone who runs a guild and a "Team-lead" in the workplace. I would bet this is mostly co-incidence and just a product of the fact that most kids for the last 15 years have played video games.
The thing this doesn't take into consideration is that if your "significant gaming" person is some pasty white troll who's been living jobless in their dad's basement for the last 3 years they probably wouldn't get past the person at the front desk.
It's a news article summarizing a book's arguements. If you want numbers, you'd need to either ask the author or perhaps look in the book. Hardly worth being irked about.
Edit: That article that's linked is an abridged version of a paper also.
"This is an abridged version of a paper written by Goebel, Govender and Drake while completing the MBA programme at the University of Cape Town Graduate School of Business last year."
If you really want numbers, look a little bit further.
Beck states that gamers are unique, in that they naturally think about the systems that underlie a game, rather than thinking linearly.
I know that WoW has gotten to me in this respect. I can't see a situation without trying to break it into pieces and turn them into formulas and equations. But on the other hand, this seems limited to a small section of the gaming populace, the theorycrafters. The average WoW player neither knows nor cares what the difference between one-roll and two-roll combat would be, or how the game generates loot tables, or how gear is itemized.
I guess that ties into the leadership skills debate. The games might reveal and hone skills, but they don't create them. WoW might make me a better organizer and manager, but it's not going to change the fact that I've got "Second in Command" stamped on my soul.
As a leader, it's all about people buying what you're selling. Great leaders can get people motivated to do things that a group under a poor leader would find appalling. To be a great leader you need to have those "intangibles." What are these intangibles? I'm not sure anyone can define and/or quantify them any more than "you know it when you see it." Leaders typically look more big picture, and know how decisions made now will affect the group in the future. Also, leadership abilities abilities are innate. Given a completely clean slate and new settings, leaders will eventually rise back to the top (see: Discussions on Re-Distribution of Wealth). It's happened with me personally. I was a raid leader in a guild, quit because I was tired of leading, joined a new guild, and am again raid leader not a year later. Turns out it was more me presiding over a group of players that were inherently "casual" (I use that terms as carefully as I can), and I just needed to find a more "hardcore" group. I do enjoy making the wheels turn that gets the machine from A to B.
There are good leaders for different styles of play.
I've been to many seminars on managing in a professional environment as well as listening to corporate recruiters talk about what they look for in applicants. In the back of the room I'm thinking to myself "I do all of that...in WoW...almost every day, I could give this speech if hardcore raiding was a little less taboo."
Leadership is a measure of both the respect of those you are leading and knowledge about what you are leading them to do. What managers do people hate the most? The ones that tell you to do stuff and give you orders but have absolutely no idea what is you do, how to do it, or why you do it.
Last edited by sovelis41 : 10/31/07 at 4:08 PM.
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10/31/07, 11:17 AM
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