Options for reducing time investment in the raid game - Page 2

Amonra · 11/07/07, 10:38 AM

I think the idea that raids need to be 3-4 hours long (or more) is entirely a player issue rather than anything to do with Blizzard. Every boss in the game can be killed within 1 hour, most within half an hour, so there is no real reason why raiding couldn't be done in 1 hour slots. More realistically, given 2 hour trash respawns, 2 hour raid slots would be better. If it helps then imagine the 6 SSC bosses being in 6 very short wings - there's no reason they can't be tackled that way, albeit that there is a certain order of kills which is very difficult to break,

However, shorter slots wouldn't reduce the time requirement to learn encounters. Instead of raiding for 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week, you would need to raid 2 hours a night, 10 nights a week. Which would be a bit difficult. I guess you could schedule an afternoon and an evening raid, but at that point why not put them together and raid for 4 hours?

The next problem is finding 24 likeminded people who fit your schedule. If your timetable is very limited and you can only fit in 2 hour raiding blocks, what is the likelihood of finding 24 people (more realistically 30+ to cover absentees) who have the same raid timetable as you? And if your raid slots are somewhat variable, such as you having family commitments which may vary from week to week then how is that going to work? Grabbing 4 other people for a heroic dungeon can reasonably be done on the spur of the moment. Grabbing 9 people for Karazhan is much harder and grabbing 24 people for a full raid is pretty much impossible.

The next problem then becomes the overheads and inefficiencies which players introduce into their raiding experience. In particular starting the raid late matters much more for a short raid than for a long raid. This problem can be overcome with dedicated players and efficient leadership, but thats easier to imagine than to put into practice.

So in theory 2 hour raiding slots could work. But in practice the key difficulty of finding other people with the same timetable as you makes it unrealistic.

Nezralix · 11/07/07, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Amonra

The next problem is finding 24 likeminded people who fit your schedule. If your timetable is very limited and you can only fit in 2 hour raiding blocks, what is the likelihood of finding 24 people (more realistically 30+ to cover absentees) who have the same raid timetable as you? And if your raid slots are somewhat variable, such as you having family commitments which may vary from week to week then how is that going to work? Grabbing 4 other people for a heroic dungeon can reasonably be done on the spur of the moment. Grabbing 9 people for Karazhan is much harder and grabbing 24 people for a full raid is pretty much impossible.

I get home around 8:30 or 9:00 most nights, and could conceivably put four hours in. Unfortunately, not a single guild on my server starts at that time, because most everyone would like to be done by midnight, and has decided that four hours a night is the minimum block they need to be competitive. So my raiding is rather directly limited by this tendency. Never mind that fours a night isn't very pleasant to me to begin with.

If it's player-limited, then why is a three-hour raid block so rare? Why are two-hour raid schedules practically non-existent, when every other activity in the game fits well into a two-hour block? Given the quality of raid-acquired equipment, it should be quite easy to find enough likeminded players for a two-hour raid team (as there are plenty of people running 5-man instances in that time frame), and yet it's just not easy at all. I claim that the content is oriented in such a way that clearing at a good clip completes most instances in three hours (which is corroborated by other people in this thread even). If a good clear of farm status content takes that amount of time, then it's a no-brainer for most guilds to allot more time than that to ensure that they complete content in one night rather two, since a two-night split often torpedoes good attempts on a second raid.

I also claim that it's an issue of making it an efficient use of time. It takes so long to get players to the instance, buffed, and ready to play, or to return to a ready state after a wipe, that it strongly encourages players to allocate extra time for the actual progress, to account for non-playing overhead. It can be kept to a minimum, but obviously, the larger numbers of people you're dealing with, the more likely it is that some of them are, at any giving time, going to be distracted, or have something come up that requires them to leave early.

I would also speculate that players would be more inclined to show up on time and stay for the entire duration if raids were generally encouraged to be completed in around or less than two hours for an "expert clear".

Furion · 11/07/07, 11:23 AM

Well I too got into the situation of not having enough time (at least not at the typical raiding times) to raid anymore and this brought me to the point where I quit playing alltogether. I'm not too interested in the pvp aspect of WoW (as this is the kind of games I came from before starting WoW in the first place), my interest is almost entirely focused on tough pve challenges. For me PvP is just a means to get gear for PvE while having some fun.

I'd really like to raid again but I'd be strictly limited to 5 or 10 mans due to time issues and I consider those not enough of a challenge to bother coming back to wow.
I'd ultimately prefer to still have access to 25 man raiding with more flexible and shorter (overall and session-wise) raiding times but I think it's more realistic that blizzard will just offer alternate PvE progression paths in the 5 and 10 man instances which require less organizational and logistical effort, while still being hard. As such they require less overall time investment, are possibly done in smaller pieces and are much more accessible as you can gather 5-10 people rather quickly and are much more flexible in general.
It's not quite the "real deal" I guess but if they'd implement this right I might subscribe again.

• Jamor · 11/07/07, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

Travel time to dungeons really costs too. The BT neck is a fantastic idea for reducing this time.

If there's two things I could change about Hyjal, it would be to introduce a similar teleport-item-reward to port to CoT. And the ability to zone out of the dungeon without killing yourself.

I didn't read many of the posts on this topic, but I was going to comment on this as well. I LOVE the concept of this neck, it is suck a handy item for getting people to the zone, and out of it cleanly. Kudos to whoever came up with this idea, and I hope they continue to implement this type of items for all zones.

I also agree that CoT needs a similar item. Even if we only had it for the people that log out to swap and then, upon logging back in, get ported back to Shat because someone didn't communicate effectively that they are still in the zone when they shouldn't be. Then, as you stated actually getting people out normally, or to summon those from the earlier scenario. It's pretty frustrating.

Kiln · 11/07/07, 12:03 PM

Some guild changes that can speed up raids and shorten raid times.

1. Actual raid start time tends to be 30+ minutes after the official start time. This time cost guilds pay makes it more effiecent to raid for longer blocks of time. Shortening this start time would make shorter raids more feasible.
a. Guild leaders should have their side of things ready before raids.
b. On PvP servers, show up as a group.
c. Reward players for being on time.
d. Make on time mean with required spec, gear, consumables, in the agreed meeting location.
e. Establish a consistent and set buff pattern. This is especially useful when your guild Paladins are idiots. This will also decrease the time to get going again after a wipe.
2. Use consumables and enchant gear. Consumables and enchants increase the overall effectiveness of your raids existing gear. While this may seem like a no-brainer, establishing the requirements of these things increases the likelihood that everyone will use them. In many casual guilds, consumables, other than mana pots, are optional.
a. Not all players can farm gold / consumables and still raid. Reward players who can bring their own. Consider bringing guild consumables for those who cannot.
b. Consider providing mats for enchants, jewels, etc to guild members. I recommend a marginal dkp cost as this tends to benefit only certain members.
c. Proper food tends to be hard to come by as the materials are not always available for sale and must be farmed. Recommend setting up a guild cook.
d. Require a run speed enchant or gem. New and casual players don’t seem to realize the importance of this for all the positioning type raid events. It is easier to make it mandatory.

• Mjollnir · 11/07/07, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Furion

it's more realistic that blizzard will just offer alternate PvE progression paths in the 5 and 10 man instances which require less organizational and logistical effort, while still being hard.

I'd like to say 'a blue said'.. but I've no link to provide. The only issue with making 5 or 10man content hard, is the need to provide enough versatility for a wide range of classes to perform similar roles. The forte to 25man content is it's not unreasonable for devs to assume 2 of each class, and to design the encounter around class specific abilities. That being said, there is still plenty they could do in this vein. Heroics were a step in the right direction, but 1. they've been nerfed and 2. too much focus on CC.
This game should provide options for character advancement via PvP, farming, raids, rep grinds... choices. I wouldn't so much say raiding needs to be toned down, or tailored (trash?) so much as I'd agree more avenues could be present.

Cohren · 11/07/07, 12:44 PM

What I haven't seen people mention is that by making changes that reduces the time to raids in 25 man content won't stop hardcore guilds from raiding 5-6 hours a night. All you will accomplish is that more guilds will finish all available content faster which is a bad thing. Some of the things in place that make raids take so long are there to pace progression and give it a shelf life longer than a week for the average hardcore guild.

There is a whole other thread which has beaten that issue to death about what people who have been farming Illidan for a month+ have been doing. Frankly it is bad that so many people are looking for other things to do in between raids as that can lead to people quitting for games they find more enjoyable for the time or they get their life back.

Raiding is just not meant for some people because they can't make the time commitment. Blizzard knowing this implemented 10 man instances so that people who couldn't make the time commitment to 40 and 25 man raids a chance to experience the raid aspect of the game.

Zaphid · 11/07/07, 12:46 PM

I would love if they introduced ways to speed things up in the raid, for example: you wipe on a boss, a timer pops up, and you have 5 minutes to be again in front of him fully buffed. I'm sure there is an addon for this, but without any actual rewards, it feels kinda hollow. Some in-game buff like "Increases your mp/5 by 5" or "Increases your damage done by 1%" and the raid leader could assign every mini quest to each player individually.

It is something you definitely won't need but it shows how disciplined you really are and that helps when someone wants to see if you are The good player or a dead weight .

snape · 11/07/07, 1:28 PM

Originally Posted by songster

The issue is the 2 hr trash respawn timer coupled with the length of trash clears. Say the trash clear takes 30 minutes or so to the first boss. You then have two hours to work on it (assuming you have wipe recovery in place), making a 2h30 raid in total. When the trash respawns, it'll take another 30 minutes to clear, putting you up to 3hrs. You then get uninterrupted boss-time for another couple of hours. So, raids of ~2h30 or 5h "work". A 3hr30 raid means you get to do double the trash clearing and get almost no more practice on the boss - which is why they just don't happen.

Now, this only really applies to the first boss of the night - as soon as you can move past one boss and onto a second within the same evening, the timer shifts, because some trash doesn't respawn. However, for the all-important progression nights, you're always going to be zoning in, clearing trash, then going straight up against a new boss until the respawn gets you.

So the choice is really between a 2h30 raid or a 5h raid. For a lot of raiders, 2h30 actually isn't long enough. 5h is pushing it for me personally - my concentration's shot by the end of it. Some more creative options on trash respawn would be very welcome.

Example:

1) Naxx model. Trash doesn't respawn until a soft reset.

2) Stuff Stays Dead. No respawns until the hard reset.

3) Boss pull counters. Blizzard hasn't tried this, but I don't see any reason in principle why they couldn't set it up to allow you 10 (or 20, or...) pulls on any given boss before the trash respawns. That would mean it is worth clearing the trash at the end of a raid, since it'll allow 10 clear pulls of the boss on your next raid night.

Most complex, but also most tunable (and also most immersive, I guess) would be staggered respawns. That is, some trash respawns after a given time, but the rest stays dead until a soft reset, or even a hard reset. You could have roaming singletons on a 1hr timer, one or two packs on a 2hr timer, one tougher pack which respawns at the soft reset and a "miniboss" pack with guaranteed BoE / vortexes which respawns at the hard reset.

Correct me if I'm wrong, becuase I certainly could be, but didn't the lab packs in BWL stay dead even after resets of the dungeon (even if the subsequent boss was still alive)? I believe the reason is they dropped valuable epics (and Elementium ore) and they didn't want them to be "farmed". I believe the only exception was Master Elemental Shaper Krixix.

Yilona · 11/07/07, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by snape

Correct me if I'm wrong, becuase I certainly could be, but didn't the lab packs in BWL stay dead even after resets of the dungeon (even if the subsequent boss was still alive)? I believe the reason is they dropped valuable epics (and Elementium ore) and they didn't want them to be "farmed". I believe the only exception was Master Elemental Shaper Krixix.

No, they definitely respawned. However, to combat the farming for epics and ore, they made it so that the mobs would drop loot the first time a pack was killed, but all subsequent kills of that same pack would not.

I don't remember if this was affected by a soft reset or if it was based on the instance ID. I'm pretty sure it was linked to the instance ID. It was a long time ago.

◊ songster · 11/07/07, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Yilona

No, they definitely respawned. However, to combat the farming for epics and ore, they made it so that the mobs would drop loot the first time a pack was killed, but all subsequent kills of that same pack would not.

I don't remember if this was affected by a soft reset or if it was based on the instance ID. I'm pretty sure it was linked to the instance ID. It was a long time ago.

They stayed dead if you killed the whole pack, but respawned if you only killed part of the pack. If you killed part of the pack, allowed it to respawn, then killed it again, you didn't get extra loot, though. The only exception was Krixix, who respawned after a soft reset.

Scurn · 11/07/07, 3:12 PM

I've found that the length of your raids has a lot to do with the age of the members and the guild leaders. People who want to raid will make the time that you set for raids. If you continue to progress people will pretty much bend over backwards to make raid times. The trade off is high burnout and when progression tanks so does morale and attendance.

My guild raids 3.5 hours a day, 3 days a week from 6:30-10pm server and have Vashj down, working on Kael. As the raid leader I strictly enforce the ending time even if we are close to killing a boss. It's amazing how many terrible attempts suddenly become a flawless kill at 9:55pm. Our first kills for A'lar, Leo and Fathom-Lord have all been this way. The raid knows there will be no new attempts after 10pm although we can start the pull at 9:59. We also raid Sunday/Monday/Wednesday so everyone can/should go out with friends Friday/Saturday.

The average guild age is high 20's and this is another reason for guaranteeing an end time so people can get to sleep and not feel that WoW is crossing over into their work. The working gamer generally prioritizes work/family over the game and it's reassures them that I make sure this can remain the case.

Lemmingherder · 11/07/07, 3:35 PM

For the people out there who raid slightly outside of normal prime time raiding hours, there are guilds out there that do the same. Depending on the time slot however, it is quite possible you will need to transfer to a different server to find a guild with a compatible schedule.

As was stated above, the 4+ hour raid times that you see the bulk of guilds doing is a player determined norm, and is not something that the game itself forces upon us. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that in order for a guild to be successful, it needs to be filled with people who have the same goals, and the same availability. Getting a group of people together that have limited availability, and having that availability all be in the same timeslot is going to take a lot of effort to organize. Most people with a smaller period of time to play have less ability to determine when that time is. The biggest obstacle to getting a guild like that off the ground would be finding someone to put it together. Running a guild can be a fairly large time investment, especialyl while forming the guild. So you run into the issue of the people with the time to devote to get the guild going will have the time to raid for the standard 4+ hours, and will build the guild based around that.

A lot of rambling, but I guess what I was trying to get at is, if you are looking for something well outside the norm as far as length of time, starting something yourself may be the best path to take as far as making that a reality. At the very least, you will not be able to limit yourself to looking on the realm you are currently on.

Nezralix · 11/07/07, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Kiln

Some guild changes that can speed up raids and shorten raid times.

1. Actual raid start time tends to be 30+ minutes after the official start time. This time cost guilds pay makes it more effiecent to raid for longer blocks of time. Shortening this start time would make shorter raids more feasible.
a. Guild leaders should have their side of things ready before raids.
b. On PvP servers, show up as a group.
c. Reward players for being on time.
d. Make on time mean with required spec, gear, consumables, in the agreed meeting location.
e. Establish a consistent and set buff pattern. This is especially useful when your guild Paladins are idiots. This will also decrease the time to get going again after a wipe.
2. Use consumables and enchant gear. Consumables and enchants increase the overall effectiveness of your raids existing gear. While this may seem like a no-brainer, establishing the requirements of these things increases the likelihood that everyone will use them. In many casual guilds, consumables, other than mana pots, are optional.
a. Not all players can farm gold / consumables and still raid. Reward players who can bring their own. Consider bringing guild consumables for those who cannot.
b. Consider providing mats for enchants, jewels, etc to guild members. I recommend a marginal dkp cost as this tends to benefit only certain members.
c. Proper food tends to be hard to come by as the materials are not always available for sale and must be farmed. Recommend setting up a guild cook.
d. Require a run speed enchant or gem. New and casual players don’t seem to realize the importance of this for all the positioning type raid events. It is easier to make it mandatory.

All of this is true. There are many ways to speed up raiding. Many guilds raid very successfully on a very tight schedule.

Most don't.

This thread is asking what Blizzard can do to enable and encourage guilds to condense raiding into a more manageable average time investment. I really don't want to have to start my own guild in order to raid three hours a night, and I'm willing to bet that a majority of raiding guild leaders aren't particularly interested in taking suggestions from anyone who isn't part of their "inner circle". If there were rewards for prompt behavior, or systems that sort of implicitly suggested a benefit to being on time, then Blizzard would be doing the average raider and raid leader a huge favor. As it stands, it's really just up to the raid leader "tsk tsk"-ing the entire raid and hoping that players choose to be responsible.

And raids are still generally too long, unless you split them up into "bracers/belt/boots" day and "chest/helm/legs" day (in which case, nobody wants to show up for the first day).

epiphenom · 11/07/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

I have to thoroughly disagree with this statement. Starting at 9:00 and going to midnight is much different from starting at 7:30. One gives you enough time after getting off of work to take care of any responsibilities you might have, and the other doesn't. At least in my experience.

Well, I suppose our experiences differ in this respect. I find the 7:30-11:30ish block to be very commonly available among people on my server. Stormrage is hardly the most advanced server, but we have five guilds in BT/Hyjal on reasonably similar 4ish hour schedules, and it's fairly obvious that the availability on the timeslot among the general population must be higher than just the members of those five guilds.

You do bring up a good point about schedule mismatch. The longer the blocks of time, the greater the chance that people with that length of time will have a reasonable length of time to match availability; consequently, the shorter the time available, the smaller the overlap and therefore time to progress. As an example, one raiding organization on my server has, as of last week, three Karazhan runs with start times of 7:15, 9:30 and 11:30 (all PM). Three hours of availability for each player results in 1:45 of overlap separated by 45 minutes of nothing, which is not exactly a schedule for progression. (In practice, they squirm around to get 25 people together on the timeslot of greatest consensus, which turns out to be 7:30-11.) I can certainly see your point with regards to the 9-12 timeslot, but a number of people also consider going past 11 to be too late. My point ultimately is that finding enough raiders for a guild on a specific three-hour schedule who don't also have the availability to join a 4+ hour guild is probably a lot rarer than people expect.

Sillia · 11/07/07, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Uglesh

Ask yourself
- do we start on-time (or even early)
- has everyone spent some time researching the new content (or does the leader have to hand walk everyone for each Mob)
- are all your raiders bringing full consumables
- do all your Buffer's know their assignments and never have to be asked for something
- are your wipes 15+ minutes because people go AFK waiting for a rez
**Edit**
I would bet that if you added these up, the "average" casual guild wastes 25% of their potential time. Take SSC as an example (2 hr trash repops). I was recently helping a guild learn Lurker and I think this is EXACTLY what happens to most casual guilds. First, raid was 30 minutes late starting. We had cleared trash to Lurker in about 35 min. Guild leader started explaining fight. First attempt was at 50 min. Quick wipe. Regroup and explain. Next attempt 1 hr 10 min. (See whats happening?) Another couple attempts and someone has connection issues. At 1 hr 40min we have to look for another healer. New healer comes in just for long enough for us to explain the fight and get ONE more attempt. In total, 2.5 hrs and only 5 attempts on the Boss.

Raiding can very easily be fit into smaller times, but you need to find 25 people who feel the same way... THATS THE PROBLEM!! This board seems to contain an incredible number of people who "get it", but its very unrepresentative of the WoW population as a whole.

*** Edit ***

If you think back to Pre-BC, the 40 man raids were nice because we have more class flexibility and the instances didn't require 40 people to be present. As a result, more casual guilds we able to have people flow in and out of the raid while still moving forward. This was a huge help in my guild as our player base spanned 12 hrs of time zones.
25 mans on the other hand require all 25 to be present and attentive in addition to a specific mix of classes.

Just because some of this stuff is player created doesn't mean Blizzard can't help streamline it. For example:

- Starting time has been made much less annoying thanks to meeting stones able to summon people now.
- Are you bringing consumables? Streamline this by making Guild Bank access available near raid instances.
- Wipe recovery - Make abilities for AoE resurrections that provide more mana when resurrected. Give this ability a 16+ minute cooldown, so you cannot use it in the arena, and give it a reagent cost.
- Repairs available on site
- Reagent vendor available on site
- Place graveyards close by
- Diablo-esque Town Portal-like abilities to go back to where you left off, rather than having to run through an empty instance to get there.

These would all be things that would streamline raiding. The question is mostly whether they want the pacing to be at the speed they set, or faster.

Design1stCode2nd · 11/07/07, 4:40 PM

Easiest thing to do is thin the trash some and eliminate respawn. Honestly respawn is just time sink by blizzard. If you bomb on Lurker one night you should be able to start right where you left off the next night.

tedv · 11/07/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Golias

I'm sure some guilds have killed Illidian raiding 4 or even 3 times a week, but those are a small minority.

Well count me in that minority. We've been killing Illidan for a month and raid 4 days a week for an average of 18 hours a week during progression times. Our farm clears could be faster, but we're still averaging 10 hours to clear Black Temple and Hyjal. Want to know the secret of efficient raiding? It's simple:

Solid Guild Infrastructure

We have a really low turnover rate and high recruiting standards. Over half of the core raid group has been raiding together since Naxxramas and earlier! 75% of the raid group has been with the guild for at least 6 months. I'm sure there's enough information on how to have a solid raid group for an entire other thread, so I'll just say this. The secret, at least for Aftermath, is actively discouraging people from blaming others and creating an environment where people are allowed to admit their mistakes without being crucified for making them.

When people feel like the guild is family, they don't want to leave. Low turnover rate means less time relearning fights and regearing people. Losing people is the biggest hidden time cost of raiding.

Of course there is still more we could do to optimize our raiding. For example, we generally only raid for 3.5 hours per weekday, which makes it near impossible to clear both Hyjal and Black Temple in two days. If people were more prompt about showing up on time, we'd have an extra half hour per day of raiding, and that adds up fast.

Uglesh · 11/07/07, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Sillia

Just because some of this stuff is player created doesn't mean Blizzard can't help streamline it. For example:

- Starting time has been made much less annoying thanks to meeting stones able to summon people now.
- Are you bringing consumables? Streamline this by making Guild Bank access available near raid instances.
- Wipe recovery - Make abilities for AoE resurrections that provide more mana when resurrected. Give this ability a 16+ minute cooldown, so you cannot use it in the arena, and give it a reagent cost.
- Repairs available on site
- Reagent vendor available on site
- Place graveyards close by
- Diablo-esque Town Portal-like abilities to go back to where you left off, rather than having to run through an empty instance to get there.

These would all be things that would streamline raiding. The question is mostly whether they want the pacing to be at the speed they set, or faster.

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. Stuff like consumables, repairs, vendor... etc, these take a minimal amount of time to do before a raid (like 5 min or less).
What you are doing is going down the slippery slope of "lets make this easier". Why not have everyone in an instance resurect with full health and mana if out of combat?? Why have buffs cost mana in an instance when not in combat? Heck... why even have buff timers? You see, the problem is at what point does "streamlining" become removing player controlled difficulty.

In the end, every person has to ask themselves what they want out of the game. I know Blizzard could do more for casual players, but I don't think that being "fair" to casuals vs hardcore means having to make them equal. People who want to play longer and smarter should have an advantage and every Joe 12hr-a-week shouldn't be able to get top end gear.

Nezralix · 11/07/07, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Uglesh

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. Stuff like consumables, repairs, vendor... etc, these take a minimal amount of time to do before a raid (like 5 min or less).
What you are doing is going down the slippery slope of "lets make this easier". Why not have everyone in an instance resurect with full health and mana if out of combat?? Why have buffs cost mana in an instance when not in combat? Heck... why even have buff timers? You see, the problem is at what point does "streamlining" become removing player controlled difficulty.

We're not talking about making bosses drop dead any easier, I don't see how any of these constitute any measure of "difficulty" (although I'm impressed that you've managed to come prepared to every raid you've ever attended). People die and buffs expire, so you're going to have to buff everyone in the raid before every boss; why dwell on annoying overhead? I understand that in games like Everquest the challenge was often whether you followed the checklists and didn't fall asleep, but I do think that the combat difficult in WoW stands on its own merits.

In the end, every person has to ask themselves what they want out of the game. I know Blizzard could do more for casual players, but I don't think that being "fair" to casuals vs hardcore means having to make them equal. People who want to play longer and smarter should have an advantage and every Joe 12hr-a-week shouldn't be able to get top end gear.

We're discussing the type of "casuals" who just don't have the kind of flexibility with their time to consistently lay down their entire evening based on the schedule that the rest of their server has settled on. It's pretty clear that there aren't that many guilds that are able to progress successfully on a three-hour schedule, and of those very few guilds, it's a gamble that they'll have opening spots for someone wanting to join with a particular class, or that they'll be able to start at the required time (someone here mentioned a 6:30 start time, which could well be too early for many players who would like to participate).

I contend that time investment for the sake of time investment is a meaningless qualification. Chess players don't benefit from blocking off five hours a night; Quake players don't either. Skilled guilds are going to down more difficult bosses, and they're going to clear content faster, and this is all the advantage they need. I've read posts on other gaming messageboards from dozens of people who enjoy raiding, but just couldn't commit to putting an entire night into the game, four or five nights a week. Why should there be no PvE progression path for these people, who are skilled enough to and have the desire for raiding, but just can't put out the time block that virtually every guild on the server is demanding, and which is out of line with everything else in the game? These issues are systemic as much as they are player-created, for reasons discussed in this thread.

You claim that every player has to ask what they want out of the game. Plenty of smart players are asking that question, and realizing that what they want is simply not achievable. It's not achievable on slower time frame; it's just not achievable at all, because the guilds are few and far between who can provide that experience, because it's so difficult to manage. There is the demand for raiding that can be completed in smaller (yet not unreasonably small) blocks of time. Heck, Blizzard has content that's practically almost there anyway. It's essentially just some minor tuning and itemization details that prevent it from working.

Wolven · 11/07/07, 6:31 PM

Originally Posted by Uglesh

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. Stuff like consumables, repairs, vendor... etc, these take a minimal amount of time to do before a raid (like 5 min or less).
What you are doing is going down the slippery slope of "lets make this easier". Why not have everyone in an instance resurect with full health and mana if out of combat?? Why have buffs cost mana in an instance when not in combat? Heck... why even have buff timers? You see, the problem is at what point does "streamlining" become removing player controlled difficulty.

In the end, every person has to ask themselves what they want out of the game. I know Blizzard could do more for casual players, but I don't think that being "fair" to casuals vs hardcore means having to make them equal. People who want to play longer and smarter should have an advantage and every Joe 12hr-a-week shouldn't be able to get top end gear.

But blizzard says everyone should be able to get top end gear, it should just take the casual guy longer to do it. Just look at the Arena setup. Even if you lose you get points. Also, when you play everyone gets points to their gear as opposed to 1 guy getting gear one week and the next guy getting gear the next week and then you have to burn an item the week after that before the next guy gets his loot.

I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard started pushing Raiding more in that direction. Badge of Justice is a prime example of giving good gear to everyone based on the fact that you can put together XX tokens. The hardcore players will put together those tokens faster than the casual players but eventually the casual guy can catch up.

So if this idea is being used for PvP and is starting to move into PvE the next step would be for it to become a part of End Game PvE. Bosses could start dropping more Badges and carrying less random drop table loot and that would eventually help more people to see end game content.

Originally Posted by songster

The issue is the 2 hr trash respawn timer coupled with the length of trash clears. Say the trash clear takes 30 minutes or so to the first boss. You then have two hours to work on it (assuming you have wipe recovery in place), making a 2h30 raid in total. When the trash respawns, it'll take another 30 minutes to clear, putting you up to 3hrs. You then get uninterrupted boss-time for another couple of hours. So, raids of ~2h30 or 5h "work". A 3hr30 raid means you get to do double the trash clearing and get almost no more practice on the boss - which is why they just don't happen.

Now, this only really applies to the first boss of the night - as soon as you can move past one boss and onto a second within the same evening, the timer shifts, because some trash doesn't respawn. However, for the all-important progression nights, you're always going to be zoning in, clearing trash, then going straight up against a new boss until the respawn gets you.

So the choice is really between a 2h30 raid or a 5h raid. For a lot of raiders, 2h30 actually isn't long enough. 5h is pushing it for me personally - my concentration's shot by the end of it. Some more creative options on trash respawn would be very welcome.

Example:

1) Naxx model. Trash doesn't respawn until a soft reset.

2) Stuff Stays Dead. No respawns until the hard reset.

3) Boss pull counters. Blizzard hasn't tried this, but I don't see any reason in principle why they couldn't set it up to allow you 10 (or 20, or...) pulls on any given boss before the trash respawns. That would mean it is worth clearing the trash at the end of a raid, since it'll allow 10 clear pulls of the boss on your next raid night.

Most complex, but also most tunable (and also most immersive, I guess) would be staggered respawns. That is, some trash respawns after a given time, but the rest stays dead until a soft reset, or even a hard reset. You could have roaming singletons on a 1hr timer, one or two packs on a 2hr timer, one tougher pack which respawns at the soft reset and a "miniboss" pack with guaranteed BoE / vortexes which respawns at the hard reset.

Those suggestions are great! I'd also really like to see the elimination of respawns. There are raid nights where my group could put together another hour of raiding and working on a boss but then respawns hit and it isn't worthwhile to reclear the trash for a couple of attempts. If they have to make trash mobs harder to adjust to the fact that they no longer respawn, I think that would be a fair trade off.

Galred · 11/07/07, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Treibh

The T4 25-mans are very short and the T5 25-mans are possible in 3 hours. I know because we've done it, and we only raid 12 hours a week (3 hours x 4 days). We're far from alone - sure guilds that raid 20+ hours a week are more common, but there are many many guilds out there doing T5 or T6 content on 3 hour raid nights three or four times a week.

Blizzard is not forcing anyone in to 4 or 5 hour raid nights for 5 or 6 nights a week. There is nothing inherent in the design of the game that requires this time commitment. You're not going to miss out on anything by putting in less time - our guild will most likely be able to consume most if not all of the TBC raiding content before WotLK comes out. People who relax and realize that it's not a race and that they have nothing to prove (i.e. Nihilum killed everything months ago) can still raid the 25-man endgame with less time invested and at a correspondingly slower pace.

A couple of responses here:

1. I should have been more specific - having 25-man instances which can be cleared by decent players in 3 hours while still learning the encounters would help greatly. And I don't mean "zone in on the first night, 3 hours later instance is cleared" either but rather aiming for a speed-clearing time of 2 hours and a wipe-a-few-times-clearing time of 3 hours. This would be a fairly short instance, offset by the feeling of accomplishment on a full clear along with the 'best' loot being available sans the current 4 to 5 hour time investment.

1a. The T4 25-mans are short, but they just don't seem like raiding. 2 boss encounters in Gruul's plus Onyxia... I mean Magtheridon just don't offer the same exposure to endgame. Zoning in to SSC and seeing the trash and the boss (Hydross) and all these connected platforms leading to other bosses, now THAT feels like raiding!

2. Rushing through content gets you something; it gets you a longer period of time to both farm your ideal gear and also a chance to ramp down the raiding. From various posts on EJ, I gather that there are a number of guilds with BT/Hyjal on farm who now only raid 2 days per week with a corresponding upswing in their free time (I view a shorter raid schedule while waiting for the next dungeon as a plus). The tricky part is what you "get" is valued differently from player to player and from guild to guild.

The less-tangible reward is an easing of the pressure. Once you've beaten Illidan/Archimonde, that relentless pressure to advance should tail off. In many ways I think Treibh's guild may be taking the more sensible approach although I bet guilds who aren't freaking out about the massive amount of yet-to-be-beaten content are the exception and not the rule.

Sillia · 11/07/07, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Uglesh

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. Stuff like consumables, repairs, vendor... etc, these take a minimal amount of time to do before a raid (like 5 min or less).
What you are doing is going down the slippery slope of "lets make this easier". Why not have everyone in an instance resurect with full health and mana if out of combat?? Why have buffs cost mana in an instance when not in combat? Heck... why even have buff timers? You see, the problem is at what point does "streamlining" become removing player controlled difficulty.

In the end, every person has to ask themselves what they want out of the game. I know Blizzard could do more for casual players, but I don't think that being "fair" to casuals vs hardcore means having to make them equal. People who want to play longer and smarter should have an advantage and every Joe 12hr-a-week shouldn't be able to get top end gear.

It really comes down to what Blizzard think raiding should be. In reality, raiding as an institution isn't all about boss fights. Raiding in terms of time breakdown is essentially boiled down to these factors:

- Recruiting (getting the right class makeup)
- Organizing (scheduling and such)
- Preparing (gemming/enchanting gear, consumables, etc.)
- Trash Clearing (gaining rep, spending time in the instance)
- Boss Killing (actual time spent killing and learning bosses)

Now, you can ascribe each a certain percentage of what it 'should' be. But how much should it be? You obviously give the organizing and preparing segments more weight than I do, or Nezralix does. Others may not. What's a reasonable value on each? Why not try to minimize some of the less interesting aspects of the raid, to provide more time for the more interesting aspects?

Lemmingherder · 11/07/07, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

We're not talking about making bosses drop dead any easier, I don't see how any of these constitute any measure of "difficulty" (although I'm impressed that you've managed to come prepared to every raid you've ever attended). People die and buffs expire, so you're going to have to buff everyone in the raid before every boss; why dwell on annoying overhead? I understand that in games like Everquest the challenge was often whether you followed the checklists and didn't fall asleep, but I do think that the combat difficult in WoW stands on its own merits.

We're discussing the type of "casuals" who just don't have the kind of flexibility with their time to consistently lay down their entire evening based on the schedule that the rest of their server has settled on. It's pretty clear that there aren't that many guilds that are able to progress successfully on a three-hour schedule, and of those very few guilds, it's a gamble that they'll have opening spots for someone wanting to join with a particular class, or that they'll be able to start at the required time (someone here mentioned a 6:30 start time, which could well be too early for many players who would like to participate).

I contend that time investment for the sake of time investment is a meaningless qualification. Chess players don't benefit from blocking off five hours a night; Quake players don't either. Skilled guilds are going to down more difficult bosses, and they're going to clear content faster, and this is all the advantage they need. I've read posts on other gaming messageboards from dozens of people who enjoy raiding, but just couldn't commit to putting an entire night into the game, four or five nights a week. Why should there be no PvE progression path for these people, who are skilled enough to and have the desire for raiding, but just can't put out the time block that virtually every guild on the server is demanding, and which is out of line with everything else in the game? These issues are systemic as much as they are player-created, for reasons discussed in this thread.

You claim that every player has to ask what they want out of the game. Plenty of smart players are asking that question, and realizing that what they want is simply not achievable. It's not achievable on slower time frame; it's just not achievable at all, because the guilds are few and far between who can provide that experience, because it's so difficult to manage. There is the demand for raiding that can be completed in smaller (yet not unreasonably small) blocks of time. Heck, Blizzard has content that's practically almost there anyway. It's essentially just some minor tuning and itemization details that prevent it from working.

Buffing a raid takes all of 2 minutes. Coming prepared to a raid takes minimal time. People that die during the clear can be buffed while the clear continues, there is no reason to stop pulling trash just because joe hunter went splat and doesn't have every buff possible and full mana. It is just a matter of the raid being accustomed to pushing a fast pace, which comes through discipline and organization. Neither of these traits takes 4+ hours a night to instill, it is just a matter of leadership.

You have a very specific set of things you seem to want in this game. It is very likely that there are others who feel the same way. What research have you done into this? If none, then all the worrying about it not being the same time frame, them not needing your class, etc, is wasted energy. You also stated that you don't want to make your own guild. Why not? The easiest way to become a part of your ideal guild is to create it. Expecting someone else to create your dream guild for you, that has the same ideals and availability is delusional. Will something like this require cross server recruiting to get off the ground? Most probably, yes. This doesn't mean it is not able to be accomplished. Basically, if you want to see the raid game bad enough, and do so on your terms, you need to be willing to do what it takes to make that happen.

• Nisu · 11/07/07, 7:01 PM

I think the topic of how to run your raid faster have been pretty well covered in other posts, so I won't go into that.

On the topic of convenience, I think the trash respawn experiment (if you will) has failed on Blizzard's end. Obviously, the intention was to slow down progress in content; I don't think anyone can argue with that. However, I would think that the idea is to slow down the very top guilds to keep the content unbeaten longer, increasing longevity. However, it doesn't work: guilds that raid 4-6 hours a night still have time to get through the trash enough times to get a lot of solid boss attempts in, whereas the guilds on a more strict/limited timetable, which aren't the ones consuming content at a breakneck pace anyways, are the ones most hurt by trash repops. Given Blizzard's intent that as many people see as much content as possible (2.3 heroic stuff seems to support this), would it not make sense to go back to Naxx-style repops?