Crimsonstorm

So with the removal of weapon skill as a itemization stat, has their been any change to the miss rate vs mobs of higher level?

Previously it was:

Lv 70: 5%
71: 5.5%
72: 6%
73: 9%

This was due to the complicated weapon skill formula, and its wierdness when moving from 10 weapon skill below the target's defense to 11.

Does this still work the same as before or not?

 

Nite_Moogle

Weapon skill has the same effect it always did, based on what I saw leveling up Unarmed skill in the Blasted Lands yesterday before work. The only difference is that you can't get it on items any longer.

 

PsiVen

I observed a miss rate of > ~7.2% last night when tossing an Avenger's Shield at Veras Darkshadow with Precision and 58 hit rating, and missing. So I would presume it's still 9% for boss mobs.

 

• Intermission

A warrior in my guild was noticing misses on bosses with his two hander with 9.2% chance to hit.

Then again, he also said he was getting parries while attacking from behind on Mother (when she wasnt turned to cast something).

 

Celandro

Has anyone done any research on how much hit rating warriors need to not miss taunts?

 

Joy

Isn't it a straight 1:1 conversion? If so then you would need 16%, but would still have a 1% resist chance on a 73.

 

vorda

from the 2.3 notes:
I would assume the same as normal missrate (being 8.7%?), but I havent seen any conclusive tests on it.

 

Xav

This sounds doubly wrong. Unless I'm missing something or just flat out wrong myself, what your warrior guildmate claimed shouldn't be happening.

Unless of course he was debuffed or the mob/boss was 'special' somehow and has higher defense or a higher chance to be missed, etc. And noone else has noticed getting parried from behind unless the mobs turn around to do something.

 

vorda

This can have been a combination of him repositioning himself and lag. I have seen a backstab parried in our WWS logs aswell a few times in the past.

 

Xav

Forgot about that! I remember that from my rogue days as well, good thinking!

 

Prinsesa

It's my understanding that:

1. Weapon skill still has the same effects as before, but since you can no longer increase it past the current cap of 350 via any items or talents, the only possible effect it can have is if your weapon skill is not maxed out.

2. Taunt/Growl/Righteous Defense has been changed to be affected by hit rating, which means it has a 9% chance to be resisted by a level 73 mob, the same chance to miss with a white attack when wielding a 1H+shield or a 2H weapon. The Precision talents (Paladin Protection, Warrior Fury) can reduce this chance by 3%.

It'll be interesting to see if Improved Faerie Fire has an effect on it as well.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Hate Monkey

Are you sure on that? All that was said was that Taunt is affect by melee hit now, not the cap for it to land was lowered. Still could be a 16% miss rate, but affect by melee hit instead of spell hit now.

 

Prinsesa

I'll try to test it further when I have the time, but I spent a couple of hours using RD while wearing my hit-capped Ret set and never got a resist (it's really confusing whether I should say "resist" or "miss" now).

It seems unlikely that they would retain the old resist/miss rate, given that the spell hit mechanic would still leave a 1% chance to miss, and the whole point of changing it was for encounters like Nalorakk, where the strategy revolves around seamless tank transitions via Taunt, and a single miss can prove disastrous.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Mem

To my understanding styles have still a missrate of 5.6 %. Which is probably also true for taunts. The interesting question is: can a taunt now be dodged/parried? I presume it works similarly to mocking blow.

 

mek

Theoretically, Taunt should now behave identically to Sap: because it does no damage, it cannot be dodged or parried, the only possible outcomes are miss or hit.

 

bv728

Druid testing on PTR before patch went live with 9% hit saw no misses, no parries, no dodges over about 100 taunts. Someone else can do the math, but that seems to be fairly compelling as far as a basic sample size.

 

Krieger_Ho

If weapon skill was removed there would also be some changes in mob versus player fights.

Without the higher weapon skill a Bossmob 3 level above ours would have a decreased chance to hit a tank (for example). I didn´t realise anything like that in my recount stats (yesterday in TK).

 

Zaazel

Weapon Skill wasn't removed, it just isn't attainable anymore apart from gaining levels. Since Bosses are technically of a higher level, they also have a higher weapon skill (still) and you won't see any changes while taking their hits.

 

Fellwraith

Was that on bosses or level 70/73 mobs? Spell miss and physical miss scale differently vs higher level targets based on the data we have.

I've actually been spending a bit of time looking at our WWS parses since the patch trying to figure out what the baseline stats are for most boss mobs so I have some idea of how much +hit and +expertise I want to stack. I was posting about it in the benefactor's bar to see if anyone else was looking at it, but this is probably a bigger audience.

In the spreadsheet below, I'm wearing ~2.9% +hit gear for every boss and I have 32 expertise (-8% parry and dodge), I'm not wearing what's in my current armory profile. My base miss rate doesn't seem to come up to 9% on bosses for most of the data I have, but my sample size is also quite small. I'm closer to 7% net miss, if you factor in my +hit, it should be 6% miss for a 9% gross miss rate. Parry seems to come out at about 15% base rate for most bosses (as long as they don't have a "turn and cast" or channeled spell element), boss dodge rates are definitely less than 8%. Trash mob parry/dodge rates are definitely less than 8%.

I am wondering if there are different "templates" that they use for each boss based on the encounter design (similar to how mobs are flagged as paladin or warrior base mob type). Some bosses may have more effective physical defense than others. It really looks like the hard-hitting physical dps bosses are treated more like warriors while the magic damage bosses are less effective at avoiding physical damage. I really can't explain the low miss rate on Anetheron for example, it could just be bad data, but it's consistently low across every attack type.

I'm not able to tell anything about the taunt mechanics based on how the data gets filtered in WWS. There's a lot of trash in the WWS log and I taunt pretty frequently in MH to keep trash off the tauren warriors or away from AOE, so it's probably a good sample set to work with if someone can figure out how to filter the log better than I can.

Attached Files

Hit table.xls (34.0 KB, 135 views)

 

bv728

71-72 mobs up near Ogrila were where this test was run; didn't test below 9%, just had a bear in his cat gear, set things up for taunting, and watched for resist/miss. The primary goal there was looking for Parry/Dodge, though, not to see if 9% makes Taunt 100%, or there would be more data. Not getting one Parry/Dodge in 100 taunts was enough to convince us that it wasn't likely to be an issue.

You had 175 Taunts, 4 failed; with ~3% hit, ~4 expected to fail if Taunt is a proper Melee Ability against level 71 mobs. Looking at the logs, all taunts in the log are against trash from what I can see; certainly, all successful taunts were. Across the raid (I'm not seeing a single failed taunt from Gurumesh; more on this later), I'm seeing 7 failed taunts, 507 total taunts debuffs, and 586 Taunts cast. My guess is that Gurumesh was out of range from a logger on some pulls, so I'm gonna throw out his data. That leaves us with 463 Taunts, 7 failures. Assuming that Rage logged out in his basic tank gear, he had 3x your hit and 1/2 the resist rate. Murgon got 1 out of more than 100, so there may still be a base 1% resist rate in there (relic of it being a 'spell'?), but I'm not a statistics guy so can't say with what certainty.

MH is definitely the instance for data on trash, but I think something where we look at several weeks attempts on Bear Boss to get an idea of how bosses work with Taunt.

 

Hate Monkey

You guys aren't getting the point of Taunt getting changed to melee hit though. The chance for a spell resist against a mob 2 levels higher than your is negligible(less than 9%), it's only when the mob is 3 levels higher does it matter, 16%.

The problem is, does Taunt obey melee hit mechanics to land now again mobs, 9% hit needed, or does it still obey spell hit mechanics, 16%(17% now) hit needed, but affected by melee hit now,

Everything you've posted, parsed and theory crafted on, is against mobs 1-2 levels higher, not 3.

This should be easily testable against Essence of Anger, Flames of Azzinoth, Lady Vashj, Al'ar, most bosses in Karazhan, Bear boss in ZA. All those would seem to provide more than enough evidence to show which mechanic it obeys now.

 

Fellwraith

We're both well aware of that and I think both of us posted that we'd need to see test data from the bear boss in ZA and Al'ar. In fact, it's the first line of my post. It will likely be several weeks before there's enough data to look at it.

My post was less about taunt and more about basic hit table information. 1) I'm not sold that every boss follows the same mechanics and 2) I'm not certain the base physical attack miss rate for all bosses is 9%.

 

Hate Monkey

For 1h, 2h, and special attacks vs for a boss, the general consensus is that you need ~9% to not have that attack miss.

Now since Taunt is a physical spell, does it follow the rules of a special, or the rules of a spell. But if it follows the rules of a spell, there is a new problem, does it follow the old rules of 16%, 1% always "miss" or can it be up to 17% now, since it uses melee hit, which allows for no misses in the end.

Should easily be able to collect enough data this week with all the tauntable bosses around now. Never occurred to me, but is Fathom-lord Karathress tauntable or not? Same for Lurker. Never had problems with aggro on these bosses really, so never asked that question.

 

Xav

Karathress is not, Lurker is.

Due to the time/effort it would take to reach such bosses mentioned in this thread, and then the time needed to test something like taunt resists (duration between taunt cooldowns..), your best bet still for testing this all in one sitting is an old-world friendly boss like things in ZG, MC, or maybe Azuregos

 

Yeria

As it seems to me, if the new change that Taunt is affected by melee +hit is not bugged, Taunt is still handled as a spell (to some extent, at least)

Today in Hyjal, I've had a Taunt resist on a level 71 Ghoul, with 101 hit rating (6,40%hit) equipped (No Screenshot or anything, you'll have to believe me on this ). So, if nothing changed on the basic melee miss chances, with 6,40% to hit a melee attack shouldn't ever miss [vs. level 71], so its either always 1% base resist or still spell mechanics and 17% vs +3 lvl (However I personally doubt that due to the mentioned facts, like the Bear-Boss in ZA. Noone will ever have 16% hit in tank gear, so taunts would still resist rather frequently against bosses))

Also, the fact that it actually says "Resist" and not "Miss" indicates that it is a spell mechanic to some extent, doesn't it?
Now if its a spell with melee miss mechanics, or a spell just affected by melee +hit obviously still needs to be tested