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Old 12/14/07, 2:55 PM   #201
Cluey
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
That's exactly what I was thinking. It's like the designers thought, "Rogues still don't want this ability because it doesn't have enough riders on it. Lets tack on a sprint too!"

No, rogues don't want the ability because it doesn't add enough damage relative to other talent options. They should just increase the bonus damage and/or combo points added until it's worth taking, maybe boosting the energy cost as needed to balance.

They already have four meaningful numbers to tweak (energy cost, cooldown, bonus damage, bonus combo points). No need to add more.
Another way to make deep Subtlety decent for PvE would be to duplicate the Relentless Strikes talent on Shadowstep, maybe even add the Ruthlessness effect to Sinister Calling too.
If this was done it would probably need to not stack with the Assasination talents though.
This would mean a 0/2x/4x build wouln't be as handicapped as they currently are.

Adding 10% damage buff to Hemo and Backstab will help an Ass/Sub build in PvP but still doesn't help a PvE one due to duel wield being 20 in combat and Imp Backstab being 8 in Assasination, both are needed to do competative raid damage.

If they are trying to make all of the builds viable in both PvE and PvP swapping Opportunity and Lightning Reflexes would help both Combat Daggers and Mutilate.
Lots of things to consider and I have probably missed something, my rogue is only an alt I don't get to play enough but I find the class quite interesting.

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Old 12/14/07, 3:09 PM   #202
Ozzmar
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Magtheridon
Originally Posted by Cluey View Post
Another way to make deep Subtlety decent for PvE would be to duplicate the Relentless Strikes talent on Shadowstep, maybe even add the Ruthlessness effect to Sinister Calling too.
If this was done it would probably need to not stack with the Assasination talents though.
This would mean a 0/2x/4x build wouln't be as handicapped as they currently are.

Adding 10% damage buff to Hemo and Backstab will help an Ass/Sub build in PvP but still doesn't help a PvE one due to duel wield being 20 in combat and Imp Backstab being 8 in Assasination, both are needed to do competative raid damage.

If they are trying to make all of the builds viable in both PvE and PvP swapping Opportunity and Lightning Reflexes would help both Combat Daggers and Mutilate.
Lots of things to consider and I have probably missed something, my rogue is only an alt I don't get to play enough but I find the class quite interesting.
It's easy enough to get Relentless Strikes with a Shadowstep build, but it's marginally useful really. Once you're out of Stealth, your CP generation is essentially less than that of a Combat Dagger rogue (assuming you're going for Backstab/daggers).

Personally, I think Sinister Calling could have Backstab and Hemo add 2 combo points instead of just one. That would give Subt specs a lot more viability in both environments. It'd be easier to keep SnD running in a raid, it's be much easier to lock down an opponent in PVP.

And although it makes sense, if they were to swap Opportunity and Lightning Reflexes, I think I'd cry.

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Old 12/14/07, 5:51 PM   #203
Sapp
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Human Paladin
 
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Detheroc
The hillarious Seed of Corruption bug on PTR deserves a mention, I think.

They accidentally gave warlocks the hidden "detonation" spell part of Seed in their spellbooks; Seed of Corruption - Spells - World of Warcraft

Meaning, instant cast, 0 GCD, 0 mana cost, infinite range, AOE nuke.

Think about what this means for a second.

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Old 12/14/07, 6:10 PM   #204
heel
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Mannoroth
You can also cast it while you're dead.

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Old 12/14/07, 6:10 PM   #205
Tacitus
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Wildhammer (EU)
Originally Posted by Sapp View Post
The hillarious Seed of Corruption bug on PTR deserves a mention, I think.

They accidentally gave warlocks the hidden "detonation" spell part of Seed in their spellbooks; Seed of Corruption - Spells - World of Warcraft

Meaning, instant cast, 0 GCD, 0 mana cost, infinite range, AOE nuke.

Think about what this means for a second.
/cast Seed of Corruption x 10

Farming/PVP goodiness! This will propably get fixed before tomorrow though :/

Originally Posted by heel View Post
You can also cast it while you're dead.
LOL

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

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Old 12/14/07, 8:30 PM   #206
 frmorrison
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Originally Posted by heel View Post
Vengeful Gladiator's Grimoire is not on the arena vendor on the PTR.

Edit: Actually, it seems that none of the listed changes have been implemented.
They will be in the next PTR patch.

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Old 12/14/07, 9:47 PM   #207
Tacitus
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Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
They will be in the next PTR patch.
As will be the Seed of Corruption bug... oh well, it's good that bugs get fixed but it's bugging (sorry - had to) me that I never got to try it.

WoW Forums -> PTRs Restarting - Seed of Corruption

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Old 12/15/07, 11:27 AM   #208
songster
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Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
As will be the Seed of Corruption bug... oh well, it's good that bugs get fixed but it's bugging (sorry - had to) me that I never got to try it.

WoW Forums -> PTRs Restarting - Seed of Corruption
It wasn't a bug, it was entirely deliberate. Think about it - what is the entire purpose of the current PTR push? To see whether the servers can handle the increased load caused by the network code changes. So, to stress test this properly, you want a server packed to the gills with people spamming instant cast spells.....


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Old 12/16/07, 3:41 PM   #209
Baalzaman
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Undead Mage
 
Blackrock
Pity the network changes weren't in yet

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Old 12/19/07, 12:08 PM   #210
heel
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Mannoroth
I hate bumping this thread, but there's no other place to put this:

Over the holidays, on December 25th and January 1st, we will be performing a series of rolling restarts for all realms starting at 5:00 AM PDT, in lieu of weekly maintenance. Each realm is anticipated to be down for no more than 15 minutes, and should additional maintenance be necessary, we will notify our players in advance. Have a happy holiday!
Source: WoW Forums -> Holiday Maintenance Schedule 12/18/07

Running under some very reasonable assumptions, this means that 2.3.2 won't be pushed to live until January 8 (at the earliest), 2.4 won't be on the PTR until January 11 (at the earliest), and we may not see Sunwell until March.

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Old 12/19/07, 2:05 PM   #211
Sebudai
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Sebudai
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Anyone know off the top of their head how long 2.3.2 has been on test so far? Also, is it okay to start complaining about the lack of raiding content yet? It's been 7ish months since BT and Hyjal were released...

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Old 12/19/07, 3:18 PM   #212
Turik
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ner'zhul
Not really. As much as we all despise the "Casual vs. Hardcore" debate - fact is being on the more hardcore side you are faced with the wait and the patience that requires it. After the lift of attunements to SSC/TK - many are just starting to clear BT/Hyjal. So far so good. There's also a lot of gear to be had for BT/Hyjal guilds - many like to stay and perfect the fights, try alternate strategies, focus on loot - etc; the things they cant really do when the are pushing final bosses.

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Old 12/19/07, 6:39 PM   #213
heel
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Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Sebudai View Post
Anyone know off the top of their head how long 2.3.2 has been on test so far? Also, is it okay to start complaining about the lack of raiding content yet? It's been 7ish months since BT and Hyjal were released...
Tonight will be our twenty-fourth Illidan kill. I think that's all that has to be said about that.

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Old 12/19/07, 6:44 PM   #214
♦ Praetorian
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Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Turik View Post
Not really. As much as we all despise the "Casual vs. Hardcore" debate - fact is being on the more hardcore side you are faced with the wait and the patience that requires it. After the lift of attunements to SSC/TK - many are just starting to clear BT/Hyjal. So far so good. There's also a lot of gear to be had for BT/Hyjal guilds - many like to stay and perfect the fights, try alternate strategies, focus on loot - etc; the things they cant really do when the are pushing final bosses.
We've had this thread already. There's never been a wait this long, and I've argued that it's because Blizzard erred (though I didn't realize it until afterwards) by releasing so much of their raid content up-front instead of spacing it out more evenly (release t5 in April and t6 in August and people wouldn't be nearly as angsty today). But what's done is done. And it's not like complaining is going to make a difference in the development of an instance that surely is almost complete by now.

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Old 12/19/07, 7:45 PM   #215
Juli
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Executus
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
That's exactly what I was thinking. It's like the designers thought, "Rogues still don't want this ability because it doesn't have enough riders on it. Lets tack on a sprint too!"

No, rogues don't want the ability because it doesn't add enough damage relative to other talent options. They should just increase the bonus damage and/or combo points added until it's worth taking, maybe boosting the energy cost as needed to balance.

They already have four meaningful numbers to tweak (energy cost, cooldown, bonus damage, bonus combo points). No need to add more.
The mini-sprint wasn't just a case of throwing more abilities into the spell. Latency and client/server discrepancies in positioning made it so that even with a 20-80ms ping, it was often possible to shadowstep and immediately be out of melee range. It was an issue with the ability that definitely needed to be addressed.

It stands to reason that it's intended effect is basically what charge/intercept stun and feral charge root do, but without giving rogues yet another interrupt. I think they're moving in the right direction, but I personally prefer the control over damage play style, and prefer an arena setup where that role actually fits with my teammates.

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Old 12/19/07, 7:52 PM   #216
Wodahs
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Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Juli View Post
The mini-sprint wasn't just a case of throwing more abilities into the spell. Latency and client/server discrepancies in positioning made it so that even with a 20-80ms ping, it was often possible to shadowstep and immediately be out of melee range. It was an issue with the ability that definitely needed to be addressed.

It stands to reason that it's intended effect is basically what charge/intercept stun and feral charge root do, but without giving rogues yet another interrupt. I think they're moving in the right direction, but I personally prefer the control over damage play style, and prefer an arena setup where that role actually fits with my teammates.
If that was the goal, then why not have shadowstep ignore all movement impairing debuffs, until the sprint is over, similar to how intercept/charge work.

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Old 12/19/07, 9:12 PM   #217
PSGarak
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Hyjal
Because movement impairing effects have nothing to do with shadowstep mechanics. It's a teleport that happens instantly on server-side. The issue is the target isn't rooted or otherwise affected by shadowstep, meaning that under normal latency conditions they're not there anymore by the time you get there. The same thing happens with intercept often when the target resists the stun: you get there and they've left.

On re-reading your post I think you're actually talking about not being able to catch people afterwards because when snared the sprint isn't fast enough. Unless you have crippling poison on you you're still miving at faster-than-run speed, although outright snares like frost nova present a problem. Personally I think it should break movement-impairing effects anyways, since it's so similar to blink, but a 30-second escape artist is probably a tad too much for the developers. (yes, druids. they lose all energy when they try that; shadowstep costs 10)


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Old 12/20/07, 7:20 AM   #218
Gogusrl
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Orc Warlock
 
Jaedenar (EU)
That could be fixed by rooting (not stun) the target in place for 1 second instead of the movement speed buff.

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Old 12/20/07, 10:29 AM   #219
Seneku
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Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Gogusrl View Post
That could be fixed by rooting (not stun) the target in place for 1 second instead of the movement speed buff.
Problem is shadowstep, especially done while stealthed, isn't always going to be used to open on the actual target so the stun gives away the rogue incomming game. In BEA for instance if they move onto one of the pillars I'd generally shadowstep, sap the other target then open on the initial target so I really wouldn't want a stun telling them I'm omw so start spamming aoe now.

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