How would S4 gear nerf BT/Hyjal? Most pvp gear isnt well suited for raiding anyway. Its hardly the gear that stop people from progressing into BT/Hyjal.
Consider that S3 weapon DPS (103) against that of all BT/MH weapons (100) - sans Glaives, it means that S4 will have weapons vastly superior to that of BT/MH (assuming around 110~ DPS), as said previously the armor pieces do not matter that much, the cost of high sta and resil are acceptable in bringing their potential downwards.
Going into Sunwell with already dwarfed weapon itemization (assuming the general 108 DPS is correct) will not make this long a wait perticually worth it.
2 weeks into S4 you will have the majority of semi-serious PvPers having the required rating, and with previously stashed points to buy them with instantly.
The generally small upgrade in armor thesedays makes the majority of the focus on weapons for boosting DPS, which is ofcourse also very easily/quickly attained via PvP should you wish to get them.
Even I (who really dislikes PvPing) would most likely save up for a S4 MH should it become known its released with Sunwell.
Regarding the not seeing S4 for a long time, we also got indication we would see 2.4 on the PTR before xmas...
Initially when I said S4 wouldnt matter much for Hyjal/BT access, I was mostly thinking about the Armor sets, you are of course right in regard to the weapons.
/my mistake. Just so we dont see 10 more posts commenting it...
That said, it would be a bit surprising to have S4 in 2.4, usually the Seasons has been lagging slightly behind the raid releases.
I was mostly thinking about the Armor sets, you are of course right in regard to the weapons.
Here is a lootrank for a fury warrior moving from T5 gear into T6. (Loot Rank)
The SEP values were obtained from the 2.3 DPS Warrior spreadsheet. This is for the lower armor bosses of BT/MH.
The following PvP slots are better than anything you can get prior to MH/BT: helm, neck, cloak, chest, and legs.
Now, if you give the bosses more armor or take off CoR/FF/Sunder, this will change (in favor of T5 pve gear).
Already for this class, having S3 pvp gear will help in BT/MH; therefore, have S4 gear will almost certainly be better.
BTW: not beeing able to claim the weapon until the end of the instance is what i hated most about the weapon-token-system of AQ40. Getting a Imperial Qiraji Armament or Regalia from Skeram and then waiting months to be able to pass the twins and get your weapon is hardly rewarding, its extremely annoying. Imagine a token drops from Naj'entus and you can only trade it in for an item when you reach an area past Mother Shahraz ... who would spend dkp on such an item when you can only use it in few months?
I disagree, having 4-5 Regalia's to turn in after our first Twin Emperors kill made it all that much more of an accomplishment and made it that much more memorable. The weapons were best of slot for a very long time so waiting for them was definitely worth spending DKP on early.
With only 6 bosses in Sunwell, I'm betting that each will have a fairly extensive loot table for two reasons:
-To allow Blizzard to cram in every possible variety of non-set but obviously spec-specific piece of armor and weaponry. (eg, for leather armor alone, there will be feral tanking-tuned, rogue/feral dps-tuned, boomkin-tuned, healing-tuned)
-To keep even the early guilds who clear Sunwell within a month coming back for more--it may take three months' worth of kills, for instance, to see everything a particular boss has to drop, even with a perfect drop distribution.
Having just downed Illidan for the first time last week, I'm already starting to feel what I imagine many of you have been feeling for months and months; more than ready to leave all previous raid content behind and throw my full attention onto Sunwell. This will be a "race to the finish" like WoW has never seen before--never before have so many raid guilds been "finished" with current content and impatiently awaiting the next big thing.
That being said, I truly hope that for all our waiting and stockpiling and over-gearing, we walk into Sunwell and find ourselves blown away. Boss fights with mechanics we've never fathomed before that we have to beat our heads against for nights and nights. All kinds of intense challenges. Honestly, the last thing I want to see happen is everyone plows through the first three bosses in one night, devote the rest of the week to fulfilling the "war effort", then go back in the next week and plow through the next three, and it all be over again till WoLK. Obviously artificial cock-blocks like bugged C'Thun would be stupid, but some sort of true challenge that doesn't take just a couple weeks to push through would be more than welcome.
That being said, I truly hope that for all our waiting and stockpiling and over-gearing, we walk into Sunwell and find ourselves blown away. Boss fights with mechanics we've never fathomed before that we have to beat our heads against for nights and nights. All kinds of intense challenges. Honestly, the last thing I want to see happen is everyone plows through the first three bosses in one night, devote the rest of the week to fulfilling the "war effort", then go back in the next week and plow through the next three, and it all be over again till WoLK. Obviously artificial cock-blocks like bugged C'Thun would be stupid, but some sort of true challenge that doesn't take just a couple weeks to push through would be more than welcome.
I hate to say it... but I get a feeling that you and many others are in for a disappointment. The addition of one 25 man instance to high end raiders is like feeding a horse an oat! The fact that it will be on the PTR for some time before release will mean that there will be extensive strategy guide for at least the first 3 bosses.
Granted the opening of the last 3 bosses will certainly be annoying depending on your realm... But I'm sure you'll find a token resistance fight that will require a couple weeks of gearing up for anyways. Any wagers on whether the new faction will have some sort of rep based resistance recipes?? haha
That being said, I truly hope that for all our waiting and stockpiling and over-gearing, we walk into Sunwell and find ourselves blown away. Boss fights with mechanics we've never fathomed before that we have to beat our heads against for nights and nights. All kinds of intense challenges. Honestly, the last thing I want to see happen is everyone plows through the first three bosses in one night, devote the rest of the week to fulfilling the "war effort", then go back in the next week and plow through the next three, and it all be over again till WoLK. Obviously artificial cock-blocks like bugged C'Thun would be stupid, but some sort of true challenge that doesn't take just a couple weeks to push through would be more than welcome.
How does one meaningfully challenge the bleeding edge without making it nearly impossible for the rest of the raiding spectrum?
In regards to the discussion about the drop rate on the legendaries, compared to the Atiesh quest line..
I always thought a neat thing would be to have different loot tables, or, weighted loot tables to reward more challenging strategies and organization.
In the case of the Warglaives.. just as an example, make it so they have the same chance to drop as any other item (12% or so?) if you kill both Fire Elementals in Phase 2 within 5 seconds of each other.
Or have it somewhat based on other factors like killing a boss in a certain amount of time.
That way, your first kill may be more likely to have crap loot (Stormrage Signet Ring and Healer/Caster Cloak), but it gives you something else to strive for long after the boss is on farm... like weapons and trinkets.
That way, your first kill may be more likely to have crap loot (Stormrage Signet Ring and Healer/Caster Cloak), but it gives you something else to strive for long after the boss is on farm... like weapons and trinkets.
Just to clarify, the ring off Illidan is far from "crap loot", it is actually best in slot by a good margin (since the nerf'ed melee haste the trash one isn't worth using). I agree that it doesn't belong on Illidan, especially considering the huge number of physical DPS drops - T6 Chests, Cursed Visions, Warlgaives, Stupid Dagger, and the Ring (not to mention the bow for hunters who also like the ring and helm), but it is a notable upgrade over anything else people are using going into the fight.
With only 6 bosses in Sunwell, I'm betting that each will have a fairly extensive loot table for two reasons:
-To allow Blizzard to cram in every possible variety of non-set but obviously spec-specific piece of armor and weaponry. (eg, for leather armor alone, there will be feral tanking-tuned, rogue/feral dps-tuned, boomkin-tuned, healing-tuned)
-To keep even the early guilds who clear Sunwell within a month coming back for more--it may take three months' worth of kills, for instance, to see everything a particular boss has to drop, even with a perfect drop distribution.
I doubt it. Probably more likely 10 pieces off each boss(standard loot table sizes), then anything higher then you'd expect. Sunwell is definatly shaping up to be the AQ40 of TBC. Expect item holes filled, maybe lots of trinkets, rings, cloaks. I think a lot of people are actually going to be disappointed because of this. It's not going to be T7, it's going to be T6.5
Having just downed Illidan for the first time last week, I'm already starting to feel what I imagine many of you have been feeling for months and months; more than ready to leave all previous raid content behind and throw my full attention onto Sunwell. This will be a "race to the finish" like WoW has never seen before--never before have so many raid guilds been "finished" with current content and impatiently awaiting the next big thing.
I'm almost exactly at that point(if the east coast instance servers hadn't gone down last night we would have been putting in our first real Illidan tries), and I feel the exact opposite. I want to spend a couple months(2, 3) farming gear before moving on to bigger and better things. We've killed Kael three total times, and after the first it was just to get people attuned. Completely abandoning a Teir of gear instantly irks me a little bit. More Kael necks floating around our guild would be a good thing, in my opinion.
On the other hand, It's almost been a year since BT came out with no new real raid content to get excited about, and it's definatly time for 2.4 to be on the PTRs so the people at mmo-champion and worldofraids can data mine the hell out of Sunwell. Seeing new graphics and new items is one of the most exciting things left in WoW for me and maybe for a whole slew of other people.
In regards to the discussion about the drop rate on the legendaries, compared to the Atiesh quest line..
I always thought a neat thing would be to have different loot tables, or, weighted loot tables to reward more challenging strategies and organization.
In the case of the Warglaives.. just as an example, make it so they have the same chance to drop as any other item (12% or so?) if you kill both Fire Elementals in Phase 2 within 5 seconds of each other.
Or have it somewhat based on other factors like killing a boss in a certain amount of time.
That way, your first kill may be more likely to have crap loot (Stormrage Signet Ring and Healer/Caster Cloak), but it gives you something else to strive for long after the boss is on farm... like weapons and trinkets.
I like the idea, but not to be rude, how is Stormrage Signet Ring crap loot?
Edit: Someone already said what I wanted to say, but better sorry for the de-rail.
Obviously its not "crap", but when so many better things can drop off a loot table, and you hear disappointment in vent every time it drops, and it seems to drop more frequently than anything else, it has quickly become the red-headed step child of our Illidan kills.
Just seems it belongs on another boss, and Illidan should be all the highly sought after stuff like weapons and trinkets.
I like the idea, but not to be rude, how is Stormrage Signet Ring crap loot?
Reminds me of the healing haste-cape off Illidan. It might be a decent item for its slot, but nobody wants to see it drop instead of the fancy e-peen items like Skull/Memento/Bulwark etc. Move them to Illidari Councils table imo. (only 6 items on it).
Obviously its not "crap", but when so many better things can drop off a loot table, and you hear disappointment in vent every time it drops, and it seems to drop more frequently than anything else, it has quickly become the red-headed step child of our Illidan kills.
Just seems it belongs on another boss, and Illidan should be all the highly sought after stuff like weapons and trinkets.
O_O! We've had a total of ONE Signet Ring drop and all our melee/physical DPS are drooling over it. It's the only item I really *need* and all of our melee have capped DKP, just for this item... and your guild is sighing over such an awesome item? :P.
Really, there is only one "crap" piece of loot on Illidan and that's [Shroud of the Highborne]. What were they thinking?
O_O! We've had a total of ONE Signet Ring drop and all our melee/physical DPS are drooling over it. It's the only item I really *need* and all of our melee have capped DKP, just for this item... and your guild is sighing over such an awesome item? :P.
Really, there is only one "crap" piece of loot on Illidan and that's [Shroud of the Highborne]. What were they thinking?
There are cries in vent now whenever the Mage Helm, Tank Helm, the Ring, Haste Cloak, Bow, Shield and the Dagger drop - all are guaranteed rot and/or offspec items (except for fruity mages taking the cloak).
The Skull is mildly interesting, we already have quite a few however, same goes for the staff. What we really want are Mementos, Maces and Warglaives!
Espescially the Mage/Tank helm, Dagger and Bow. No more. Please. I BEG YOU.
Our Paladins really like the cloak as well, but it would be better coming from council instead of those stupid +healing leather shoulders that no one in their right mind wants.
On that note, I really think there could be a lot to be gained by making bosses drop specific offset stuff. For example, if Council always dropped a cloak (move the one from Teron there, the ones from trash etc). Make Illidan drop only weapons and trinkets (maybe move the helms to Council as well). Honestly with the exception of the bow (all of our hunters have the Archomonde one) and the dagger, all the weapons off Illidan/Archimonde are still in pretty high demand. The dagger was just Blizzard being stupid and not realizing the effects of not changing Backstab between 60 and 70.
I don't think anyone would be upset if Illidan only dropped Weapons/Shields, Trinkets, and T6 Chests, same for Archimonde.
What we really want are Mementos, Maces and Warglaives!
And how! Mace and momento are the loots that have the most number of people that can use them. Warglaives are rare (for some guilds...). We could easily place 6 more and maces and 7-8 more Momentos. The rest of the loot is offspec at this point.
And how! Mace and momento are the loots that have the most number of people that can use them. Warglaives are rare (for some guilds...). We could easily place 6 more and maces and 7-8 more Momentos. The rest of the loot is offspec at this point.
According to Kyth, I would think you could probably place a couple more staffs as well. Basically all the good weapons from Archimonde and Illidan (with the exception of bows), will almost always find a good home: Tempest, Cataclysm's Edge, Apostle of Argus, Crystal Spire of Karabor, Zhar'doom, Greatstaff of the Devourer, and Warglaive of Azzinoth probably won't rot for a long time. But whoever decided that we needed an Elemental Shaman Shield, a Druid/Priest Off-hand, 3 unsocketed chests, an unsocketed pair of pants, a ring, and 2 identical bows off the "ultimate bosses", needs to have their head examined. The bows are particularly offensive, because there is already a bow from Supremus, so if you look at the the usable weapons in a ideal build:
Warglaives - Rogues/Warriors, 5-8 people per guild (but each person would need 2 drops)
Tempest - Warlocks/Mages, 8-10 people per guild
Apostle of Argus - Priests/Druids, 8-10 people
Crystal Spire - Paladins/Shamans/Priests/Druids - 16-20 people (8-10 included on the staff)
Zhar'doom - Shadow Priests/Warlocks/Mages - 12-15 people (8-10 included in Tempest)
Cataclysm's - 3-5 people (some are tanks, but still nice for farming/leveling)
Bristleblitz Striker - Hunters - Hunters 4-5
Black Bow of the Betrayer - Hunters 4-5 (Included in Striker)
So while every other class gets 1-2 a drop that they have to share with another class or only gets 1 drop, hunters get 2 drops, that no one else wants. My guess is every guild on farm already has more bows then they can use, and we have something like 9 Robes of Rhonin... but no Tempests).
So in most cases you need 5-8 drops of each item, with the exception of the bows, which you only need 1-3 of each, but the bows have some of the highest drop rates, and the lowest demand.
01/25/08, 2:02 PM
Similar Threads
