Buiden

2.4 definitely isn't done (at least up to par with blizzard standards) or they would ship it, that is how they do things. More likely they just have less people allocated to work on 2.4, and more on the expansion, thus indirectly delaying 2.4 to keep the gap shorter between the 2.4 and WOTLK.

Also the notion of Blizzard timing releases to compete with other MMOs is silly to me. People keep bringing it up and every time I chuckle. Blizzard doesn't have to give a damn about any other game release right now, they have the market controlled and until the game starts sucking or something drastically better replaces it, people will continue to play WoW on Blizzard's schedule. The initial release was very much controlled by a competition with Everquest 2, but that was before Blizzard controlled the MMO market.

I think we can expect a pretty long PTR, 1-2 months maybe? There seems to be a lot in 2.4 with the new combat log and such that will need some pretty extensive player feedback. Here's to hoping we see it sometime in February, otherwise we might not be into Sunwell before May!

 

Tyrian

I find these comments very naive. Do you honestly think Blizzard "doesnt give a damn' about their competitions upcoming product releases, just because they have a high market share?

They need to keep close tabs on innovations/newcomings to the genrè by other companies and customer reaction/demand for them - regardless of WOW's market share. And the only way to keep track of this - is to intimately know your competition and their products. The notion of Blizzard timing releases to strategically give them the greatest competitive advantage in the marketplace makes perfect sense to me.

 

Buiden

Timing releases and knowing what other products will offer are completely different areas. The bottom line is that WoW taps into so many foreign markets now that the US market is really a minority in terms of playerbase.

I don't know how long you've followed blizzard, I have since Warcraft I, but they have always been consistent about one thing. They release things on their schedule and usually a lot later than people want or expect, because they are perfectionists. They live by the philosophy that people will play their games regardless because they will be the best. So no, I don't find myself being naive in this regard.

I fully agree with you that they have to monitor other game's features and take them into consideration for future additions, that is just the nature of the market. I remember back in the original alpha/beta a lot of players were miffed that WoW didn't have an auction house similiar to FFXI and I am fairly certain that WoW's auction house came as a direct result of that game. Likewise people compared Tier 1/2 loot drops to everquest, wondering why there wasn't a token based loot, it wasn't WoW's idea it was from a competitor.

So to answer your question, No I don't think they care about their competitors release timeline enough to alter their release dates. But yes, I do think they care enough about their competition to take all their ideas and make WoW better from them.

Of course this is only my educated opinion, take it for what it is worth.

 

songster

I imagine the timing of 2.4 very much depends on PvP progression. When Sunwell comes out, that's an influx of ~T7 gear that will be used in PvP. That pretty much means S4 has to come out at the same time as Sunwell - and we know that's exactly what's happening. However, that has wider ramifications. Introduction of new PvP content has to be driven by the rate at which the PvP gear "trickles down" to the lower end of the PvP ladder system. Any other system simply means accelerating gear gaps between the haves and the have-nots, to the point where the lower end will desert the Arena system en masse.

Unlike PvE, the PvP progression has to be dictated by the average rather than the bleeding edge. In PvE, they can release Sunwell, and Karazhan will still be there for the rest of the world. In PvP, the second they release S4, the "haves" just acquired a whole tier's worth of upgrades almost overnight - and the average people will still be meeting them in BGs and the outside world, and even in the arena until the stratification settles out.

On these forums, there will be a huge disconnect in the perception of the PvP gearing process, just as there is over PvE progress. Pretty much anyone posting here that has any interest in Arena will be playing at the top of the ladder, full S3 gear, etc. etc., you name it. That's not the case in the wider world. Just to get 1 S2 weapon, 2-3 pieces of S3 Arena gear and 2-3 pieces of honor gear is pretty near the limit of what Johnny Average can achieve, if they PvP every hour they can. S4 can't come out until the average person has reasonable gear, and 2.4 can't come out until S4 comes out.

Squaring the circle of trying to match PvE and PvP progression when the two are based on inherently different models is the single issue that Blizzard have to get right over the next year or so as WoTLK comes out.

 

Sebudai

Why would the release of T7 gear require the release of S4 gear? S3 gear will still be better than T7 for pvp.

 

Wodahs

Season 3 has come out for that. Season 4 shouldbnt be out till WOTLK.

 

Kasi

Weapons for all classes but enhancement shamans (and maybe MS warriors due to the power of mace spec) are all best in game from pve. If those screenshots of possible weapons are legit, the power of those weapons will completely dwarf anything available from pure pvp gear today. We've already seen this happen every single season. End of S1 pvp weaponry got dominated by T3 Blacksmithing weapons from T5. At the end of S2 pure PVP gear was still being beaten by T3 smithing plus of course T6 being on farm for plenty of guilds. T6 weapons across the board beat PVP weapons. At the current point in the game only 2-3 classes can say their best in game weapon for pvp is from PVP. Add in a new level of raiding with the weapons available there and it is the same thing. The best pvp weapons should be from pvp, not from the end raid boss of the top level instance. (or in many cases gateway bosses who are very easy to beat)

 

Amera

Weapons would be the only real reason. Warriors with raiding 2h will have a significant advantage over the s3 ones.

 

Sebudai

Sounds like a non-problem to me. Hardly a valid reason to delay an entire friggin patch.

 

Sagerix

These two statements are completely in conflict with each other. I will say that I can get better weapons from PVP than PVE (outside of the legendaries of course), and others in my guild who I've spoken with feel the same way. Based on the current rate of weapon progression, I fully anticipate S4 weaponry being at least as good as any Sunwell weaponry and in many cases superior.

 

AriasImmortal

What?

The season 3 1handers are better than anything else available in PvE except for the warglaives, for PvE and PvP both.

For PvP, all the s3 weapons are on par or better than their t6 PvE counterparts.

They don't need a new season to coincide with sunwell.

 

Killmour

Judging by the comments made my Drysc the other day (See MMO-Champion.com) Season 4 will most likely come out with 2.4.

 

◊ Hanos

I think there is a slight disconnect. T6 weapons: Blade of Infamy, Rising Tide, The Maelstrom's Fury, Soul Cleaver, etc, are inferior to their S3 counterparts for both PvE and PvP Purposes. However, Illidan/Archimonde weapons: Warglaives, Tempest/Illidan Staff, Cataclysm's Edge, Crystal Spire and Bristleblitz Striker are as good or better then their S3 counterparts.

I think it would be slightly remiss to assume even guilds that have been farming Illidan since June have weapons that are better then S3 on everyone in their raid. If they had buffed T6 weapons when they buffed T5 weapons, then you could compare S3 to T6, but right now the run of the mill T6 weapons are worse then what any class can get from arenas across the board (please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think anything other then Blade of Savagery is better then it's S3 counterpart, that isn't an Illidan/Archimonde drop). So, it has to be assumed that S3 is designed to match up with Sunwell (PvP Graphics lag 1 tier behind raid graphics), because right now the DPS on T6 Weapons is lower then S3, and the S3 ones have better survivability stats, T7 will have more DPS (slightly), but less survivability so it evens out.

 

Kasi

Why are those statements in conflict with eachother? The best pvp weapons in the game are from PVE. Its simple enough. And for 1hers, umm for which classes? And who uses 1h melee weapons in pvp. Rogues and umm enh shamans. I already said enh shamans get their best weapons from pvp, and rogues clearly get theirs from pve.

Casters who can use a sword: Tempest of Chaos is best. Illidan staff is very strong too.
Healers: Crystal Spire.
Sword MS warriors: Cataclysm's Edge
Rogues: Warglaives or the Illidan dagger.
Hunters: The level 151 bows.

Which leaves feral druids, ele/enh shamans and Mace Warriors/Rogues.

So my point is right now that for the majority of classes the best PVP weapons are from PVE raiding. Since the rewards from PVP (titles, etc) are all calculated at the end of the season, it would be blatantly unfair to PVP'ers to have their struggle for those titles destroyed by an influx of lvl 156 and 161 (approximate guesses) weaponry which would destroy anything currently available from PVP. Even though S3 came out months after many guilds made it into BT as an average you can just say the two are comparable at best.

So yeah the obvious solution is to finish off S3 before T7 gets opened up. I think Blizzard is moving towards the right track here. If they make arena seasons end when new content is released, then they could do what they do with S3/T6 now and have the arena weapons fall in the middle of the level range of the new content thus that they're better than stuff you get off gateway bosses but worse than what you get off end bosses. Optimally I'd prefer to see instances split into 3 tiers instead of 2. So instead of BT being 141/151 have it be Naj-Teron be 141, Ros-IC be 146 and Illidan be 151.

Edit: They actually did this before in AQ40, BWl and Naxx where bosses near the end of the instance gave higher level loot. It's quite odd to go 141 for every boss in BT but 151 for Illidan when bosses like RoS, Gurtogg and Council should clearly give higher level loot than Akama, Naj and Supremus.

 

andastra

You're not considering that PvE is random loot, however, nor the fact that the bar between killing Illidan/Archimonde and getting 1850 or whatever rating is very different. Just because you've beaten Archimonde before s3 is released doesn't guarantee that you'll have Tempests before s4 is released.

 

Killmour

S4 weapons could be very slight upgrades in terms of dps but contain more survivability stats too. They don't necessarily have to up the damage much or at all.

 

Sebudai

Delaying an entire patch because a microscopic minority of the game might garner an advantage in pvp by being on the bleeding edge of pve raiding sounds like some pretty shitty logic to me. Johnny doesn't like getting his ass handed to him by Cataclysm's Edge? Well I don't like waiting 10 months for new content.

 

Kasi

Yes they do. How many times do people need to be told this. Offensive pressure is everything in pvp. If your class is being focused you use your abilities to get away. You don't just stand there wailing away. An extra 10 sta and 25 resilience on a weapon is by no means going to allow your MS warrior to stand in berserker stance flailing away as enrage procs as he gets dropped like a brick. If your weapon is 10 dps (and lower top end as the pvp weapons now have lower speeds than pve ones) you are giving up serious damage, especially in any mirror matches.

Output means everything. Right now its competitive because the output on S3 weapons and T6 weapons are very close. They will not be close at all if T7 weaponry is released into the S3 arena environment.

As for drop rates, of course that is random. However since 1/3 of the drops on both end bosses are weapons, you will be getting a lot of lvl 151 weapons. Warglaives are the only thing that might be sketchy on. Add in there the use of trinkets in pvp as well as some classes ability to use choice pve items in PVP for extra power and I don't think raiders have anything to complain about.

As for doing 1850 and killing Illidan, well I have to say I have a different opinion there. Killing Illidan is a heck of a lot easier than getting 1850 arena rating for me and most people I know.

 

Stopokingme

I just wish they'd put in say 90 dps onehanders, with 15 more dps that only works against players, same deal for caster weapons spell damage wise. Then we could drop these discussions :P

 

Kasi

Understandable. And as Gurg has pointed out a lot of the problem was they released T6 too soon. They should have left it out for longer and let people farm Vashj/Kael more. But I believe in the long run for the health of the game it is important that they sync up the arena and new raiding releases, with arena weaponry falling in the low/mid end of the new raiding content in regards to weaponry.

 

◊ Hanos

I would love to see that. Season 4 weapon with 1 more DPS then S3, but 20 more stamina, some more resiliance, maybe some dodge, and some magic resist (like +50 resist all), the collective outcry from the PvP community would be highly entertaining to watch.

I will be very disappointed if they release S4 anytime before the expansion. Farming BT should yield better PvE weapons then Arenas, right now that isn't the case (unless they start passing out a Warglaive, Tempest, Cat's Edge, Staff, and/or Spire as guarenteed loot on every kill).

We have alts with S3 weapons, we have 100% raiders who don't have Illidan weapons more then 4 months after we first killed him, for most of our guild S3 weapons are still an upgrade from what they are using for PvE. At best Arena weapons should be a sidegrade to what is generally available, if they release S4 there is a good chance they could be better then the legendaries (if you don't have both), which would be monumentally stupid.

 

Kasi

Sure, as long as the raiding weapons are the same thing. It doesn't make it any fair to restrict one person's pvp gear into raiding while not restricting it the opposite way. Obviously this isn't going to happen, so we can just hope they time it so that pvp weapons aren't better than the current top line raiding gear for raiders but are still competitive. I think they have it very close to right with lvl 146 weapons vs lvl 151 weapons in the current S3/T6 setup, but if that goes to level 161 for Sunwell it will completely wreck the end of S3.

 

◊ Praetorian

Ask yourself: Is there a single word of this post that is in any way original, has not been rehashed a thousand times across dozens of threads on this and other forums, or that you think anyone actually is really interested in reading?

Anyway, this thread is stupid. Someone make a new one once we have actual 2.4 information, maybe some time in a year or so at the rate things are going.