"Best way to keep your raid focused" means "best way to keep your raid from screwing up"?
Danger of penalties if someone screws up is not bad, but it alone won't do much good. If you wipe, the very first thing is to find out what exacly happened. Your healers can very often tell you what happened. If they can't that is definately one place that needs improvement! Second thing is to try to solve the problem (cause of wipe). If you punish people for screwing up thing X you should be able to tell them how to improve too. Do not forget this! Just telling "fucking Leeroy, you screwed again" doesn't help much.
Last edited by Vihermaali : 01/02/08 at 11:16 AM.
Reason: typo
Sometimes raids have a bad try or two and it is best to paper over the fact, maybe talk to people not paying attention privately and write off the tries publicly as "bad luck." Bad luck can be one of those useful white lies you can tell the raid as a raid leader to hlep people move past the wipes and focus on winning. It is a way of saying "we are not going to spend 15 minutes calling people out individually on vent (which is never a good idea) we are just going to try again."
This is so true. I've lost track of the amount of times one of the RL's has attributed a wipe to 'Bad Luck' then instantly gone ballistic in /O, just to get it off his chest, calming him down enough to /w individuals with 'corrective action'.
I find pulling people out individually and publicly to be almost always counterproductive, it can often build resentment from other raiders (who occasionally might think they are doing you and the raid a favour by joining in), it can even lead to raiders trying to curry favour with the RL/officers by proactively pulling people up in a very public way (these people tend to get stamped on pretty fast though).
Having said that, we are a fairly easy going set of raiders (3/9 BT/4/5 MH), and arent likely to be setting any speed records in the game ever, while we beat content at our own glacial pace... What works for someone else may work for you. Though I have to admit I was drawn to this thread's title by witnessing in our own efforts some of the problems outlined by the OP.
Last edited by Gristle : 01/02/08 at 12:14 PM.
Reason: additional waffle
Speaking of prince infernals, as the guy who usually watches them regardless if i'm leading the run or not, especially when I'm healing, I would greatly appreciate a configurable feature like "beep + scale timer 200% when infernal timer hits 12s". It would just make my life that much easier.
While automatic stuff that cannot be configured will probably be redundant and anoying, configureable stuff would be extremely useful to take the need for "calling stuff out" almost completely out. For example "prince phase 2" as a DPS - duh I can tell he's 60%? BUT as a healer a bigger lounder warning would be awesome so the tank doesn't die because I kept on going with the slacky phase 1 healing style.
Let's face it even if you put a person on calling out a timer he'll miss it once in a while, and once in a while when he misses it nobody else will call it out. Being able to configure bossmods would greatly help with "lack of focus" problems. Heck I would even love to get a sound warning on caveins/fire pillars/void zones/rains of fires as early as possible.
Of course, really, my guildmates are probably the ones to ask, since maybe all the things that I think are effective are just annoying. :P
I find that you talking in vent (as other people have said) is the biggest help for me. I admittedly am on auto-pilot at times (aggro on Azgalor/Gruul :/), but more often than not a quick "Don't kill yourself on deaden" on RoS makes me pull up a little or a "Lots of doomfires in the NW, get out of there" makes me spin my camera more actively or get myself ready to use a fear break when I see them coming.
From past history I find DKP (dis)incentives to usually be bad. Often times your best players that have high attendance are already close to the top in DKP, and it's the players that play less often and are on the lower end of DKP that are having issues (not always, but more often I would say). If you plan on DKP hits, the people scraping the bottom already don't care, while the people on top will just get more frustrated as they're already trying hard and getting penalized for other people's mistakes.
Speaking of prince infernals, as the guy who usually watches them regardless if i'm leading the run or not, especially when I'm healing, I would greatly appreciate a configurable feature like "beep + scale timer 200% when infernal timer hits 12s". It would just make my life that much easier.
While automatic stuff that cannot be configured will probably be redundant and anoying, configureable stuff would be extremely useful to take the need for "calling stuff out" almost completely out. For example "prince phase 2" as a DPS - duh I can tell he's 60%? BUT as a healer a bigger lounder warning would be awesome so the tank doesn't die because I kept on going with the slacky phase 1 healing style.
Let's face it even if you put a person on calling out a timer he'll miss it once in a while, and once in a while when he misses it nobody else will call it out. Being able to configure bossmods would greatly help with "lack of focus" problems. Heck I would even love to get a sound warning on caveins/fire pillars/void zones/rains of fires as early as possible.
Did you know DBM can be configured to not only scale but reposition timers that are below a threshold? Check out the options of the mod, it is very extensive.
Did you know DBM can be configured to not only scale but reposition timers that are below a threshold? Check out the options of the mod, it is very extensive.
Well my 2c is this. I've been in 3 very distinct raids since BC. The first was a very old one with roots deep in MC. Unfortunately over time the previous leaders could no longer play so at this point everything was handled ad hoc with no officers and no one managing guild invites and the like. We lasted all the way through until 4/5 hyjal, 4/9 BT where we reached a point where multiple smaller groups had formed and each had their own agenda. One wanted a more casual approach and the other wanted a stricter officer loot progression-oriented leadership. This often led to conflict and eventually the disbanding of the guild.
The second was a lot stricter. The leadership was forceful and wouldn't hesitate to flame anyone who made a mistake often leading to large arguments and people rage-quitting. Eventually some people transferred off, and the guild reformed under a harsher leadership. Like the previous guild however, the guild was extremely unforgiving on anyone who made a mistake meaning the raiding environment was terrible. People were swearing and yelling in every direction on vent and while that did work in getting people in line, it didn't help progression very much with people rage-quitting mid way and vent was always a headache to stay on.
This led me to rerolling with some people I knew. Actually it wasn't my idea but after describing what I had just been in and the apparent need for a warrior someone suggested I reroll and raid with them. Everyone in the guild was really supportive and helped me level up quickly. Well when I did hit 70 we were able to get me BT/Hyjal attuned and started gearing up in ZA. While re-gearing is something I loathe after investing so much time in my previous char (since nov 04), it was absolutely worth it. [SIDE NOTE: PvE to PvP server transfers would make this part a lot easier] The raiding environment I'm in now is a lot more enjoyable. The biggest difference is that people actually respect each other; there isn't a lot of flaming. What this means is that there is progression (we've cleared all BT/Hyjal) while still enjoying each raid because of the crazy stuff that goes on.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that the best motivation to raid (and hence progress) is to have a raiding environment that people want to be in, not just because they want x item off boss y or anything. As long as people are willing to respect each other and not bust out the flames when someone makes a mistake it's easy to be successful and focused.
(That was probably took longer than necessary to get to my point :P)
A little trick I used once. It was on a bad day, when wiping on Maulgar though it was already farm content. I felt raid members completely unfocused and was searching for something to wake them up.
Finally, I just said this: "I'm going to invoke Ready Check. Please take some seconds before clicking Ok. Only do so when you really want to kill Maulgar!". It worked perfectly, but I know I cannot use this too often.
More generally, when the raid seems unfocused, I try to find a way to wake them up. Be it a joke, a break or a little trick like a this choice of words.
A little trick I used once. It was on a bad day, when wiping on Maulgar though it was already farm content. I felt raid members completely unfocused and was searching for something to wake them up.
Finally, I just said this: "I'm going to invoke Ready Check. Please take some seconds before clicking Ok. Only do so when you really want to kill Maulgar!". It worked perfectly, but I know I cannot use this too often.
More generally, when the raid seems unfocused, I try to find a way to wake them up. Be it a joke, a break or a little trick like a this choice of words.
Similarly; keeping TS clear for announces during boss fights is a very good idea.
Keeping TS clear all the time isn't always; little jokes, mild verbal sparring, and commentary by random people can help keep people interested in the raid, especially for Farm content. It's easy to lose focus on the raid and zone when the raid is just hitting older bosses and nobody's saying or doing anything entertaining, and I've found it's easy to let things get quiet because you're hurrying through weak trash.
I'd like to approach this question from a different angle. I want to know what I can do to keep myself focused in a raid. I don't know what other people do, but I work hard to give 100% effort for 100% of the raid, not just boss fights. I use my highest damage spell set on trash, including shadow fiend to reduce the time wasted drinking. As a shadow priest, I still res people because the sooner everyone is alive, the faster the clear will be done.
But lately I've noticed a problem after 3+ hours: mental fatigue. While playing a shadow priest isn't the only mentally taxing DPS class to play, I find it requires just as much attention as playing a healer did. I count 5 spells used between twice and ten times a minute, plus another 4 or 5 abilities used almost every cooldown (depending on which trinkets I use). Managing the spell priority queue while paying attention to threat and everything else needed for a fight takes a lot out of me, and sometimes that results in play mistakes. It doesn't happen that often, but it happens more than never, and that's simply unacceptable to me. For example:
On Tuesday night we had a relatively fast clear (for our guild at least). In under 4 hours we did all of Hyjal and Najentus, Supremus, and Akama. We had a little extra raid time left, so we decided to clear Reliquary of Souls. There was some juggling of Paladins and the end result was that I didn't get Blessing of Salvation. More importantly, I didn't notice the buff was missing until we halfway through essence of Anger and there was nothing I could do to stop my DoTs ticking and pulling aggro. We wiped at 8% and I cost 25 people maybe 20 minutes each. Now I could blame the paladin who didn't buff me, but honestly there were two people who could have stopped the raid from wiping. I was one of them and neither of us did our job, so we're both 100% responsible.
I just find that sometimes at the end of a raid night, I focus too intensely on getting the perfect DPS rotation down but forget simple things like "do I have the proper buffs?" What suggestions do people have for reducing mental fatigue, or at least managing it better? Don't say "slack off during trash"-- making a clear take longer adds extra fatigue to everyone.
I'd like to approach this question from a different angle. I want to know what I can do to keep myself focused in a raid. I don't know what other people do, but I work hard to give 100% effort for 100% of the raid, not just boss fights. I use my highest damage spell set on trash, including shadow fiend to reduce the time wasted drinking. As a shadow priest, I still res people because the sooner everyone is alive, the faster the clear will be done.
But lately I've noticed a problem after 3+ hours: mental fatigue. While playing a shadow priest isn't the only mentally taxing DPS class to play, I find it requires just as much attention as playing a healer did. I count 5 spells used between twice and ten times a minute, plus another 4 or 5 abilities used almost every cooldown (depending on which trinkets I use). Managing the spell priority queue while paying attention to threat and everything else needed for a fight takes a lot out of me, and sometimes that results in play mistakes. It doesn't happen that often, but it happens more than never, and that's simply unacceptable to me. For example:
On Tuesday night we had a relatively fast clear (for our guild at least). In under 4 hours we did all of Hyjal and Najentus, Supremus, and Akama. We had a little extra raid time left, so we decided to clear Reliquary of Souls. There was some juggling of Paladins and the end result was that I didn't get Blessing of Salvation. More importantly, I didn't notice the buff was missing until we halfway through essence of Anger and there was nothing I could do to stop my DoTs ticking and pulling aggro. We wiped at 8% and I cost 25 people maybe 20 minutes each. Now I could blame the paladin who didn't buff me, but honestly there were two people who could have stopped the raid from wiping. I was one of them and neither of us did our job, so we're both 100% responsible.
I just find that sometimes at the end of a raid night, I focus too intensely on getting the perfect DPS rotation down but forget simple things like "do I have the proper buffs?" What suggestions do people have for reducing mental fatigue, or at least managing it better? Don't say "slack off during trash"-- making a clear take longer adds extra fatigue to everyone.
My honest best suggestion, unfortunately, is to take a break. Doing anything for 3 hours without blinking is going to tax you mentally.
In my raids, I always call a mandatory 10-15 minute break as something of an 'intermission' mid-way through the night (unless we really, really need that time). It helps people relax, relieve some tension, and I often tell people they should get a quick breath of fresh air and shake off any wipes/mistakes.
My honest best suggestion, unfortunately, is to take a break. Doing anything for 3 hours without blinking is going to tax you mentally.
In my raids, I always call a mandatory 10-15 minute break as something of an 'intermission' mid-way through the night (unless we really, really need that time). It helps people relax, relieve some tension, and I often tell people they should get a quick breath of fresh air and shake off any wipes/mistakes.
In my experience, most times a 10 minute break occurs, a lot of people come back less focused, but maybe those people weren't giving 100% beforehand either. Although I do confess I'm bad at resting during raid downtime when waiting for people to show up or whatever. I really don't want to be "that guy" who made the rest of the raid wait an extra 10 minutes before pulling.
But if that's the answer, then I guess that's what I get to do. Any suggestions on how to take a 5 minute raid break without being "that guy" who slows down the raid?
Finally, I just said this: "I'm going to invoke Ready Check. Please take some seconds before clicking Ok. Only do so when you really want to kill Maulgar!". It worked perfectly, but I know I cannot use this too often.
I did this on Aran once. I said "Okay, that's enough downs for one night... Click yes on this ready check only if you're NOT going to have downs and move in flame wreathe again"
/readycheck
"No... can you retards stop lying to me. You just clicked the ready check to get it out of the way - stop that shit. Now click yes if you REALLY aren't going to move in flame wreathe"
/readycheck (amidst lots of 'lol' and 'rofl' in raid chat)
In my experience, most times a 10 minute break occurs, a lot of people come back less focused, but maybe those people weren't giving 100% beforehand either. Although I do confess I'm bad at resting during raid downtime when waiting for people to show up or whatever. I really don't want to be "that guy" who made the rest of the raid wait an extra 10 minutes before pulling.
But if that's the answer, then I guess that's what I get to do. Any suggestions on how to take a 5 minute raid break without being "that guy" who slows down the raid?
I like to keep a good pace as much as the next guy, but I will frequently call 5-10 minute breaks at somewhat random intervals. After a wipe, for example. You need to rebuff when you get back anyway, and it gives people some time to chew on what may have gone wrong and how they can fix it without being under stress while it is happening again!
I run a KZ group to gear newer players and alts, so YMMV. We have had people brand new to Karazhan, and many people that are seeing it for the first time through new eyes (a Mage that rolled a Feral Druid, for example). Nobody has ever said we take too many breaks, and personally I think "walking it off" has huge merit after getting your teeth kicked in.
When we had people that had never healed through Maiden and Curator before, we would have numerous wipes, and with a trash timer ticking, we would still take five now and then just to let people psych themselves up. I try hard to keep the mood affirmative and instead of heaping down aggro on players that are screwing up, I prefer to drop praise on the players that are doing excellent work. In that little group you end up being a lot more aware of what other people are doing, so suggestions posed as questions are the best way to proceed in that case. Treat the player like a dumbass and they will be a dumbass.
You get out what you put in, in my opinion.
As for keeping focus, I go the cheerleader route. When things are going great in the middle of a fight, say that they are going great. Tell everyone they are doing great, and that they need to keep it up. On curator just reminding people that they are burning down the orbs, "Keep those orbs down, you're doing great. We need to keep the menagerie clear of these adds!" works a lot better than saying "Stop attacking curator goddammit!" of course.
The best way to maintain focus is to tell people what they are focusing *on*.
In my experience, most times a 10 minute break occurs, a lot of people come back less focused, but maybe those people weren't giving 100% beforehand either. Although I do confess I'm bad at resting during raid downtime when waiting for people to show up or whatever. I really don't want to be "that guy" who made the rest of the raid wait an extra 10 minutes before pulling.
But if that's the answer, then I guess that's what I get to do. Any suggestions on how to take a 5 minute raid break without being "that guy" who slows down the raid?
Don't go AFK if you're concerned. Find yourself a good set of 5-minute computer-chair exercises (there's tons out there), and just do something to take your mind someplace else for a few minutes.
Tab out and throw on some music, since nothing of any import will be going on. You're not looking to achieve some kind of zen feng shui ying-yang balance, just let your eyes rest and your brain shut down for a few ticks.
Don't go AFK if you're concerned. Find yourself a good set of 5-minute computer-chair exercises (there's tons out there), and just do something to take your mind someplace else for a few minutes.
Tab out and throw on some music, since nothing of any import will be going on. You're not looking to achieve some kind of zen feng shui ying-yang balance, just let your eyes rest and your brain shut down for a few ticks.
You really should be getting up and walking around every hour or so (and if that may not be realistic, at least do it as often as possible). It's just not healthy to be sitting for hours straight, leads to poor circulation, blood clots, etc. So in my opinion, this advice is bad.
You really should be getting up and walking around every hour or so (and if that may not be realistic, at least do it as often as possible). It's just not healthy to be sitting for hours straight, leads to poor circulation, blood clots, etc. So in my opinion, this advice is bad.
I don't disagree - he was asking how to avoid adversely affecting his raid group by being away from his computer too long, or at the wrong time. I'm just trying to work within the parameters he set.
I try to get out of my chair and run to do something quickly after each boss, even if it's just to pour another drink.
I don't disagree - he was asking how to avoid adversely affecting his raid group by being away from his computer too long, or at the wrong time. I'm just trying to work within the parameters he set.
I try to get out of my chair and run to do something quickly after each boss, even if it's just to pour another drink.
I'll try and do this, I think. I suspect I don't get as much downtime between bosses as other people do because I res people and because I do a lot of the rebuffing.
For self focus, you could try what I do before volleyball: hearty meal the night before, no heavy food between then and the match, and a cup of coffee 1-2 hours before the match starts. The meal ensures I have energy supply. The light food in between ensures I'm not sleepy from digestion. The coffee ensures blood flow. The 1-2 hour time ensures the jitters wear off by then.
You know, maybe I should do this for raiding, too.
If you have otherwise good morale in the group, and have a sense of humor or the bizarre, past guilds of mine have tried various methods.
It's odd... if you set up a pull with "we know we're going to wipe, we know we're not going to kill this boss right now, but let's see how long it takes us to die" as the goal, people can actually relax and learn things better. I don't know why this is.
I heartily agree with this post, especially since all my other suggestions were posted already.
If your raid cannot grasp something, and has a good sense of "thinking outside the box" - then this really helps people have fun but learning parts of a fight. Obviously you cannot do this with certain phases, certain bosses, but it helps in a pinch if there's an easily replicated fight.
I remember being part of a run to down Kael for the second time with my guild and because people kept dying to Thaladred, we all had a fun "play keep away from Thaladred" practise to learn how to recognize and run and not die. If your raid leader is flexible and wants people to get a more hands-on approach to a part of the fight that seems obvious but might only be learnable by doing, then try doing it.
It just might work. I certainly had a lot of fun. Deaths went down for sure.
WoW is a game that typically encourages a very micromanagerial approach to success, whether it be attack cycles or keeping a handle on DoT durations or chasing health bars. In general, the harder somebody is concentrating on the micro-level sorts of stuff, the less aware they are of the "big picture" events and scenarios that tend to be of great importance in new, not-yet-learned encounters. So in those cases, whatever breaks them out of the routine for a clear-headed attempt is useful. This one way that typically very well-performing players can be a bit of liability, so reminding them that optimizing DPS and mana efficiency isn't the highest priority on this or that attempt can be a positive contribution.
WoW is a game that typically encourages a very micromanagerial approach to success, whether it be attack cycles or keeping a handle on DoT durations or chasing health bars. In general, the harder somebody is concentrating on the micro-level sorts of stuff, the less aware they are of the "big picture" events and scenarios that tend to be of great importance in new, not-yet-learned encounters. So in those cases, whatever breaks them out of the routine for a clear-headed attempt is useful. This one way that typically very well-performing players can be a bit of liability, so reminding them that optimizing DPS and mana efficiency isn't the highest priority on this or that attempt can be a positive contribution.
That's exactly the problem I'm mostly having. I know I'm just a mage, but sometimes I'm so busy watching my scorchdebuff (only Firemage in the raid), aggro, cooldowns, manabar - that I just don't see important aspects of the fight. My advice on this is also to just do what you manage to do of those aspects while making sure you don't oversee important aspects of the actual bossfight.
If we're talking good looks, George Clooney comes second.
I think RL is responsible for raid focus as leader gives rythm of pulls etc if RL is lazy or tired even pro-chainpullers (Often tanks and hunters) will get frustrated.
About focus of each I think it's personal thing, I'm giving 100% of what I can from the first minute of the raid til the last one. As a rogue I have less downtime than other classes, I don't have to drink or rebuff raid. So often I use this time for short smoke breaks or taking a walk around my room.
The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated.
That's exactly the problem I'm mostly having. I know I'm just a mage, but sometimes I'm so busy watching my scorchdebuff (only Firemage in the raid), aggro, cooldowns, manabar - that I just don't see important aspects of the fight. My advice on this is also to just do what you manage to do of those aspects while making sure you don't oversee important aspects of the actual bossfight.
For me it came with practice, I feel my energy level and combo points, fingers perform cycles, eyes on boss and BigWigs info.
The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated.
Some things which have helped us focus our raid on Vent:
"Relax.."
(It's a simple word but used at the right time can really bring a raid back into a fight. Sometimes you lose a healer or something happens where the raid sorta gives up. I think you have to give assurance that the encounter is still doable.)
"Pots.. Healthstones.."
(Usually a good reminder when you have raid members who rely too much on heals during chaos. Archimonde and Bloodboil are good examples of encounters where non-healers can help keep themselves alive.)
I think it's also a good idea to hear different voices on Vent. If you have an officer core, nobody wants to hear the same guy all night long. It's really nice to have a puller for trash marking targets and calling for DPS. Then we have another officer (a Mage) who just notices positioning issues or mistakes and calls it as he sees it. The raid leader's job boils down to bosses and adjustments based on raid balance.
The final thing I thought of is wipe recovery. People need to know what they did wrong, but not in a way such that they come back demoralized or with a bad attitude. Helping someone with their mistakes privately when possible is a really positive way to keep everyone on the same page. Teron Gorefiend is a good example of a fight where some players panic, no matter how many times they've done ghosts. But you can't just keep wiping. That person has to figure out a way to at least give themselves a fighting chance each time. So we use seperate channels and sometimes our raid leadership will pull someone into a different channel and talk with them if they wiped us. It's never a "you fucked up" talk. But more of a "what happened" conversation.
01/02/08, 11:14 AM
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