1- Red gems are the best for most classes. This limits the availability of red gems in general and makes them really expensive to get. Green gems are really bad, with only one good cut available (resil/stam).
2- Each class usually has a best gem that they stack, with a few side choices for getting to a hit cap or activating a metagem.
For most people, it seems like the first problem is the big one. For me though, it's the second situation that bothers me. I like being able to make choices, and it's dissapointing that there seems to be only one class (Druid tanking) that can make an actual gemming decision that would change how they play. I like the idea of unique gems with interesting abilities, or gems that have side effects for a bonus. Just something to do besides stacking one stat.
Fixing the second situation could solve the first, but is far more complicated (due to balancing requirements). Fixing the first situation is as easy as allowing people to transmute gems.
I still find it strange that there are no red gem slots on T6 healer gear. At all. And not just the set pieces, but the random healer drops as well.
There really isn't anything strange about it at all. The last time mages, warlocks, and shadow priests saw a red socket in their tier gear was tier 4. Across all the healing classes combined, the only red socket in tier gear past T4 is a single red socket in shaman T6 pants. T5 and T6 have been completely devoid of red sockets for all these classes, and offset gear has followed suit. In all of SSC, TK, MH, BT, and ZA, there are exactly three cloth DPS pieces with red sockets: Studious Wraps (which is really a badge drop), Robe of Hateful Echoes from Hydross, and Hood of Hexing from Malacrass. The maximum ilvl is 128. There are five such items for cloth healers, two for druids, one for shaman, and three for paladins. Out of these eleven items, eight drop in Zul'Aman.
Where have the red sockets gone? Tank gear. Warrior T6 Protection gear has six red sockets. T5 had four. And of course, these have come at the cost of blue sockets. The progression took one tier later, because there were still blue sockets in some T5 tank gear, but by T6, all the blue sockets are gone, as well as all the blue sockets from offset gear.
The thinking is pretty obvious: Blizzard's deliberately giving people socket colours they don't want, in order to make taking the socket bonuses a "choice". I'm sure some itemization developer feels that this is a brilliant innovation. But I think all of us in this discussion know that it's certainly not having the desired effect.
There are a couple ways to fix this. The obvious thing is that socket bonuses are too small and don't scale with ilvl. Mage T4 chest was Y/B/B +5 spelldamage. T5 was Y/Y/B +5 spelldamage. T6 is Y/Y/B +5 spelldamage. The encouraged trade is ~10 spelldamage for 6-7 stamina, especially irrelevant with all the stamina on gear. Y/Y/B +12 damage? A start.
The other way to fix it would be to put red sockets back on the equipment. Part of why socket bonuses are so unappealing is that they require you to give up having any of your best gem instead of requiring you to give up your best gem in one or two slots. Arguably, R/Y/Y +5 spelldamage would be something to at least think about. Y/B +4 damage is frequently ignored, but R/B +4 damage might not be. I honestly think that putting red sockets back on equipment will have the effect of reducing the demand for red gems.
As regards to complex requirements on Meta gems, the reason those fail is because with the Metas' we have it comes down to "I loose <x> healing/spell damage/AP from ignoring socket bonuses and having the best gems in, and I gain <y> healing/spell damage/AP instead".
I remember Metas' being passed off as 'really powerful unique gems", but they seem to be like a slightly better Spinel with a requirement that tends to diminish the gain.
I find that rogues are largely the exception to the gem problems listed. The relentless earthstorm diamond gives +12 agility and +3% crit damage...no other item gives +crit damage I don't think. A cool and unique ability, that makes this meta very very powerful (so much so that socketing the 2 blue gems needed is a no-brainer). We also want yellow, not red gems (at least until the hit cap).
Class/spec specific meta gems would be really awsome I think, one way of getting those amazing set bonuses which you cant get anymore due to either the physical lack of items to have them on (no more 8 sets) or because they were previously used. However due to the very little we know about Inscription and how that seemed to give effects that enhanced specific spells... it could clash.
The only ones which really seem to do this are IED / MSD.
I think this is a great idea. One problem with this (and many of the other new gem ideas) could be the sheer glut of gems on the market. 10 classes (with DK), that's 20+ meta gems (to cover all class/specs)...that just seems like too much for JCs. One possibility would be having epic metas with class-specific abilities be raid instance drops. Maybe a meta-gem token (like the various tier set piece tokens) that you turn in for a meta of your choice. Ooh...how about a tier-specific meta? That gets more powerful as you get more items in the set?
As a rogue example, a meta gem that has the same stats as the RED, but gains an additional +1% crit damage for every Tier 5 item you wear (or just any Tier X item you wear, much like how gladiator set bonuses work with any gladiator items). Of course, sucks if you don't get the hat drop and have the gem, and have to decided to wait for the hat or socket it in a non-set item.
It wouldn't have to be linked to set items though...that just makes it another part of the set, really. I think part of the problem of really powerful metas is making them must-haves...but maybe that isn't a problem. Maybe all lvl 80 hats of rare or better quality just come with meta sockets, and everyone uses a meta. I know for rogues it's already pretty tough for a non-meta hat to be attractive right now, and most high level hats have a meta socket anyways.
I think part of the problem lies in the fact that socket bonuses are almost never worth getting, especially because very few of them are actually equivalent to another gem.
In fact, the only one I know of would be the yellow socket in the [Tankatronic Goggles] - a +6 STA socket bonus, such that putting an [Enduring Talasite] is the same as putting in a [Solid Star of Elune], while getting a little free avoidance on the side.
Of course, another part of the socketing problem is how raw spell damage/AGI/STR/AP is superior to (spell) crit rating once you're hit capped. This isn't necessarily a problem of gems exclusively, but also itemization in general. However, a partial solution might be to introduce more of the exotic stats in gems - stats such as armor penetration, (spell) haste, etc., since we do know that there is a point of inflection where it becomes useful to start stacking those stats.
Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, a third problem is that the hybrid gems are not really hybridized, insofar as the split of stats simply being half of their respective pure colors:
A [Solid Star of Elune] has +12 STA, while a [Bold Living Ruby] has +8 STR; so why does a [Sovereign Nightseye] have only +6 STA and +4 STR? Shouldn't we be seeing +7 STA and +5 STR at the very least, since the inner working of thes itemization scheme dictate the sum of the stats of an ilevel 70 item will be higher if it's spread over two or more stats?
A [Haal'eshi Bindings] of Strength has +21 STR, but the same [Haal'eshi Bindings] of the Bear has +21 STA and +13 STR. Why don't the hybrid gems follow this paradigm?
If we're looking for ways of making gems more attractive for the public, how about cosmetic effects, either from gems themselves or the socket bonuses?
This thread has suggested various "issues" such as the valuation of one type of gem for one class, bad stat allocation, etc. Those and other things being the cause, we're left with a few effects (consequences), which, I believe, are the reason this thread garners interest, (some of) those being:
1) Bags full of uncut gems with no real purpose
2) Price disparity
3) Lack of supply on the high end
I have to believe, what with all the love of non-combat pets, appearance changing food, and glowing weapons, that cosmetic benefits from socket bonuses or new cuts would at least give JCs something to do with uncut talasites and maybe provide a market (especially if low level or no-level armor with sockets were introduced) for them.
A "sparkle" or "twinkle" that's visible, maybe? Change the hue/color of a piece of armor? Makes random NPCs /kiss at you? Have a special effect on your mount?
Would a visible sparkle or three on your gloves or pants be desireable? Eh, maybe it'd be gimmicky; I'm not sure. But people do continue to make and sell tuxedo pants...
How about Meta gems that take the gems you have into account for their effect, rather than the activation requirement?
For example:
Zappity Earthstorm Diamond: +3 spell damage for each yellow gem you have equipped. Requires at least 3 yellow gems.
Smackity Skyfire Diamond: +5 Attack Power for each Blue gem you have equipped. Requires at least 3 blue gems.
Tankity Earthstorm Diamond: +4 block value for each red gem you have equipped. Requires at least 3 red gems.
I think part of the problem lies in the fact that socket bonuses are almost never worth getting, especially because very few of them are actually equivalent to another gem.
In fact, the only one I know of would be the yellow socket in the [Tankatronic Goggles] - a +6 STA socket bonus, such that putting an [Enduring Talasite] is the same as putting in a [Solid Star of Elune], while getting a little free avoidance on the side.
Of course, another part of the socketing problem is how raw spell damage/AGI/STR/AP is superior to (spell) crit rating once you're hit capped. This isn't necessarily a problem of gems exclusively, but also itemization in general. However, a partial solution might be to introduce more of the exotic stats in gems - stats such as armor penetration, (spell) haste, etc., since we do know that there is a point of inflection where it becomes useful to start stacking those stats.
Finally, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, a third problem is that the hybrid gems are not really hybridized, insofar as the split of stats simply being half of their respective pure colors:
A [Solid Star of Elune] has +12 STA, while a [Bold Living Ruby] has +8 STR; so why does a [Sovereign Nightseye] have only +6 STA and +4 STR? Shouldn't we be seeing +7 STA and +5 STR at the very least, since the inner working of thes itemization scheme dictate the sum of the stats of an ilevel 70 item will be higher if it's spread over two or more stats?
A [Haal'eshi Bindings] of Strength has +21 STR, but the same [Haal'eshi Bindings] of the Bear has +21 STA and +13 STR. Why don't the hybrid gems follow this paradigm?
At least warriors are fairly close to having an equal choice of strength vs. crit rating at certain gear levels. A number of people in the DPS warrior spreadsheet thread mentioned that the SEP values for Str and Crit were so close that +5str/+5crit became actually superior (by like .1dps) to +10str or +10crit alone.
You bring up a good point about the 4str/6sta gems not following the standard itemization--((b/b0)^1.5 +(a/a0)^1.5)^.66 and that they are instead simply b/bo + a/a0. Perhaps because the standard itemization would CLEARLY favor hybrid gems? <shrug> I've always found it odd myself.
Perhaps because the standard itemization would CLEARLY favor hybrid gems?
I find that this would only be in the case of a hybrid gem that leans exclusively towards DPS, such as your aforementioned +5 STR and +5 crit rating gem. Even then, classes like an Affliction Lock or a Shadow Priest would still prefer pure spell damage by virtue of their specific spell mechanics.
A [Sovereign Nightseye] is DPS on one end and survivability on another, so I hardly think itemization would be skewed by increasing the hybridity.
The same goes for [Glowing Nightseye] for a Prot Paladin - spell damage is for threat, STA is for survivability, so upping the values to maybe +7 spell damage and +8 STA wouldn't really produce any overpowering effects.
Even a [Steady Talasite] would benefit from this. Yes, both resilience and STA are survivability stats, but the cap on resilience means a [Solid Star of Elune] or a [Mystic Dawnstone] would still have their respective places.
As mentioned earlier, a significant problem is that the majority of classes value red as the optimal gem color. One easy way to diversify this would be to add school specific spell damage gems. For example, if there were yellow +fire gems and blue +frost gems, that would help mages while freeing up red gems for the other classes.
While that sounds like a nice idea, I wouldn't be to thrilled to have to totally regem or get a whole other set of gear for the next fire/frost immune boss bliz puts out. Perhaps have the unwanted greens be +shadow (I know it doesn't go with a theme) and leave the reds for pure healing or damage.
[e] or staying with a "theme" have shadow go to a different color and leave an all-around +dmg gem for mages.
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
And while there's other neat ideas here, I'm not sure how many would go for a -threat metagem because it's so situational. -threat is good on gear.....when I can swap it in and out.
Similarly for raid/quested metagems. The fact that I can't get a gem back *out* makes that idea far less fun.
And any warlock who has ever regemmed gear piece B because they replaced gear piece A and have to get back to almost exactly 16% hit wouldn't look forwards to extremely complex metagem requirements combined with desirable socket bonuses. The gem churn would be unreal.
What I haven't seen mentioned yet is the need for a new meta gem for tanks. 18 Stam + Stun resist is ok as long as you only have access to rare gems. But once you are able to socket saphires this meta is getting pretty ridiculous. Not to mention the other alternative which is so shitty that nobody really cares about (I've even forgotten its name).
This is especially true when I compare the gains other classes gain from specific metas (which are most often not selected for the stat gain but for its additional specific effect).
What I haven't seen mentioned yet is the need for a new meta gem for tanks. 18 Stam + Stun resist is ok as long as you only have access to rare gems. But once you are able to socket saphires this meta is getting pretty ridiculous. Not to mention the other alternative which is so shitty that nobody really cares about (I've even forgotten its name).
This is especially true when I compare the gains other classes gain from specific metas (which are most often not selected for the stat gain but for its additional specific effect).
That is because Meta gems are Rare and Sapphires are Epic, so there is an ilevel disparity. You can't compare a 12 spell damage metagem with a Spinel.
Epic Metagems are needed ... and they need to come in at the same level as BT gemming. I hope they will appear in sunwell, but I am not hopeful. Give BT raiding Alchemists the 'Transmute Runic Earthstorm Diamond' or 'Transmute Runic Skyfire Diamond' that uses 3 Epic quality gems + Primals same as the rare metas, then throw a Pattern Vendor into Sunwell for rep, or put drops on some of the higher end bosses.
One idea that noone suggested so far is to spread around the utility of gems by color across different disciplines. Right now, agility, strength, spell damage and attack power are red gems. If they make spell power yellow and spell crit red then they solve a small part of the ridiculous demand of red gems, without altering the system at all. They could do similar tricks with other stats as well as needed.
That is because Meta gems are Rare and Sapphires are Epic, so there is an ilevel disparity. You can't compare a 12 spell damage metagem with a Spinel.
Well, some Metas do scale with gear (like haste, boni for critical strikes). And some, like those which are interesting for tanks, don't. Epic Metas would be nice though, but at least for some classes it would be nice to have not simply pimped versions but some completely different effects.
Offering better socket bonuses and colors would help. For example, make caster item with a red/yellow sockets and a bonus of 2 damage. The bonus is weakened over the normal 4 damage, but it encourages a gem other than red to be used.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Well making the Heroic gems non Unique-Equipped does make some of the more obscure cuts more available. I think I will be farming blood furnace for some [Fluorescent Tanzanite] gems for my blue slots.
While that sounds like a nice idea, I wouldn't be to thrilled to have to totally regem or get a whole other set of gear for the next fire/frost immune boss bliz puts out. Perhaps have the unwanted greens be +shadow (I know it doesn't go with a theme) and leave the reds for pure healing or damage.
[e] or staying with a "theme" have shadow go to a different color and leave an all-around +dmg gem for mages.
I have to agree that adding single element spell damage to gems would cause some problems. I think it's far more fun as a class to have the gear to switch to another spec and still perform well. The focus class for this is the mage because with adequate spell damage from your tier sets you can spec any of the three trees and perform well. I can see reason for element specialized gems for gear like frozen shadoweave and spellfire where min/max is already in place but when you have gear like that you kill your ability to switch to an alternate spec and be adequately geared for it. I've never been a strong advocate of single element spell damage specialization for non-shadow classes. This is because holy dps for the priest and fire dps for the warlock have never been raid viable. I don't see Blizzard ever implementing such gems as it isn't fun to either a) gather two sets of identical gear to socket differently or b) resocket the same gear with expensive end game gems to min/max. Such a move wouldn't help dps caster shamans or druids who can't specialize with one element as well as the other casters can.
On the topic of red gems being far more lucrative than the other colors, it's more an issue of poor scaling game mechanics and item budgeting than the gems themselves being poor. I can't expect this to be changed before WotLK but hopefully we'll see similar budgeted stats give comparable effects. I'd like to see that certain stats are stronger than others for certain classe, more so than they are now. With respect to casters, spell crit (among other stats) should either cost less itemization points, take less rating to get a higher crit benefit, and/or modify talent trees so they get a bigger bang for the buck.
01/31/08, 3:16 PM
