2.4 Details, as they arrive - Page 16

clavarnway · 02/04/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Saroz

I thought we all agreed this was not a good idea?

I think it's only a bad idea if the stuff is really good. I have no problem and actually look forward to PVP items that are available through rep with the instance factions if it means it will help me get into arena's a little faster, or if it means I'll have more fun in BG's because I'm not dying all the time. But it's a bad thing if PVP people feel they have to grind rep with the instance faction just to get the items.

Saroz · 02/04/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Stella

It is very likely describing the PvP warlord/marshal gear that is buy-able through outland reputation levels. It may be a good idea, we'll see - implementation is everything. It eliminates the paper-thin AFK excuse of 'PvP is no fun without PvP gear'. As long as it isn't sporegar rep, isn't revered/exalted rep needed, etc. no one should have a particularly valid complaint. Some further built-in redundancy in gear acquisition would be for the best, Epic PvP cloaks available through (HIGH!) honor/marks AND badges; 25 man class trinkets available through Raiding and badges/exalted rep/gold. Giving people choices is generally a good idea, not with everything but with enough to encourage cross-play.

You are right, implementation is everything. The chills of seeing PVP items replacing loot slots on bosses just sent chills down my spine. It's been done, but perhaps Blizzard did realize that this was not the best way of doing it. Let's hope.

frotty · 02/04/08, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Getting back to mana and haste:
Haste doesn't improve your normal mana efficiency, but what it does do is allow you to dump your entire mana pool faster, for exactly the same damage. Now, if you were to look at a 1-hour fight or something where your mana pool is stretched well beyond its limits, this actually does increase your regen and therefore your total damage doable. If you hit OOM faster, you spend more time outside the five-second rule. If you look at long-ass cycles of dump your mana pool and regen, haste lets you dump your mana pool faster while regen stays the same, allowing you to edge in an extra dump cycle (even if it's a smaller one).

This is, of course, an absolutely negligable effect. Most classes don't OOM with enough extra speed to get in the regen for even one extra nuke, on those fights where they OOM at all, mainly because no one has any spirit to speak of. For all intents and purposes, haste lets you do the same amount of damage per mana pool, but faster.

Is it really negligable?

I figured you'd see a noticable increase because haste gives you more abilities done per timed buff....

If you proc something that lasts a few seconds, click a trinket that has a short timed effect, are under a short term cast buff effect, you're getting more done in that fixed time.

I think your theory is locked in a vaccuum, ignoring all those little increases that might make the difference between getting in an extra nuke before your trinket/heroism/PI/whatever wears off.

That all improves mana efficiency.

Valen · 02/04/08, 6:17 PM

I am not normally the guy complaining about this, but really can we please move this warlock and haste dicussion to the appropriate thread? It's getting hard to find ontopic posts between all the class discussion.

alkis · 02/04/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by finalboss

No offense, but this doesn't sound entirely plausible. I'm 3/4 T6, and I use a fiend every fight--there's no way you're going full boss fights with a full rotation without using a fiend or pot.

It depends on Imp. SB and Judgement of Wisdom uptime. If we have 2 destruction locks in the raid and the paladins do not slack I neither pot, nor I use shadowfiend. Only 2 encounters I use pots are Mother and Council on which I eat pots like nuts, even use Dark Runes sometimes. But in any case this is completely off topic :-)

On a different topic (just thought of this now), haste increases your regen a little bit through Judgement of Wisdom. More hits per second = more regen from Judgement of Wisdom procs. Now if this is enough to counter the increased mana consumption per second of hasted casts is hard to answer and needs to be theorycrafted for each class individually.

Riallatar · 02/04/08, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by Saroz

I thought we all agreed this was not a good idea?

I agree with the others that posted before me.

If the reputation requirement is Honored, it doesn't particularly matter. The HWL/GM gear is so/so for 5-mans, not great for Heroics, and by the time you get to 70 and are ready to Arena, you've probably already got most if not all of the reputation to buy these items. And don't forget gold too.

Evalara · 02/04/08, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Riallatar

I agree with the others that posted before me.

If the reputation requirement is Honored, it doesn't particularly matter. The HWL/GM gear is so/so for 5-mans, not great for Heroics, and by the time you get to 70 and are ready to Arena, you've probably already got most if not all of the reputation to buy these items. And don't forget gold too.

Regardless of what levels of which reps they will be purchasable at/from, it's going to be an unmitigated improvement in terms of time required. It takes a similar amount of time to get to Keepers of Time exalted as to earn 30k honor if your only option is pugging AV, and that's the absolute worst case. I rather expect them to be at revered, and that should take no more than 10 hours of 5mans (which if you're a fresh 70, you need anyway) to reach even if you did not optimize your rep gain (Arakkoa feathers, etc.) at all. The only scenario that would make it a truly worthless change would be if they put the 5 pieces across 5 different exalted reps. 5 different revered reps would be kinda crappy but still fairly reasonable. A smaller number of revered reps or 5 honored reps would be perfect and I would run out and buy that gear for my (many!) alts right away.

◊ Gwaihir · 02/04/08, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Valen

I am not normally the guy complaining about this, but really can we please move this warlock and haste dicussion to the appropriate thread? It's getting hard to find ontopic posts between all the class discussion.

Echoing this.. someone even made a thread specifically to talk about dots haste scaling and all that. This one would be much better off a concise list of changes rather than shadow priest and UA warlock theorycraft.

• Playered · 02/05/08, 1:01 AM

Another scrap of information about 2.4, new cooking recipes!

Originally Posted by Bornakk

It sounds like you need either some Charred Bear Kabobs or Juicy Bear Burgers! oh so yummy mmmm...

Oh, right, details, they'll be purchasable from either Bale (Horde) or Malygen (Alliance) in Felwood in patch 2.4, they'll use meat added to level 48-56 bears, and they will require 250 skill to learn so you won't require fishing to get to 300 cooking.

Source... - always required :/

Mordinm · 02/05/08, 10:41 AM

My bet is when they said new badge rewards and PvP loot from PvE sources they were talking about the same thing. I expect to see vindicators or veterans gear for badges come 2.4.

It should either make BGs a ghost town or cut down on afkers.

Malan · 02/05/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Mordinm

My bet is when they said new badge rewards and PvP loot from PvE sources they were talking about the same thing. I expect to see vindicators or veterans gear for badges come 2.4.

It should either make BGs a ghost town or cut down on afkers.

Negative. Go back and look at the text of the posts about the PvP gear. It specifies that PvP gear will be placed on reputation vendors in Outlands. Not on badge vendors. The new badge rewards will be something separate from the pvp items. (They may be pvp applicable, but they won't be the blue gear sets)

deadlights · 02/05/08, 11:06 AM

Is putting blue HWL gear on rep vendors really worth discussing in terms of where it should go for balance sake? That stuff is not up to par for pvp or pve at level 70. They could take it completely out of the game or make it an in game gift to all level 70s once you ding and it would have almost zero impact on gearing. The only thing HWL gear at level 70 provides is a visible sign to others that the person wearing it likely does not know how to itemize their class properly and consequently probably doesn't know how to play it either.

Pixen · 02/05/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by deadlights

Is putting blue HWL gear on rep vendors really worth discussing in terms of where it should go for balance sake? That stuff is not up to par for pvp or pve at level 70. They could take it completely out of the game or make it an in game gift to all level 70s once you ding and it would have almost zero impact on gearing. The only thing HWL gear at level 70 provides is a visible sign to others that the person wearing it likely does not know how to itemize their class properly and consequently probably doesn't know how to play it either.

Or it shows that a fresh 70 didn't want to jump into BGs or Arena in gear they got questing to 70 and their limited 5 man runs to that point. You know, either way. It sucks that not every change Blizzard makes is aimed at the bleeding edge of PvE and PvP, but that's something you're just going to have to deal with.

It's a great change for people who were tired of getting two shot in BGs before they started picking up welfare epics. It shouldn't effect anyone too much at the high end, but it will help those on the low end have a significantly more enjoyable PvP experience.

Malan · 02/05/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by deadlights

The only thing HWL gear at level 70 provides is a visible sign to others that the person wearing it likely does not know how to itemize their class properly and consequently probably doesn't know how to play it either.

This is a pretty stupid generalization. High Warlord's Earthshaker - Item Sets - World of Warcraft You're going to tell me that set is not well itemized for Enhance Shaman? There is 1 item with Int on it and 1 item with Mp5 on it. Pretty damn good for Enhancement PvP, and I for one, being a guy that has skipped out on BGs and Arena for the most part, will gladly pick up that gear off a vendor as something to wear in my 2v2 that I've recently started running.

Valerian · 02/05/08, 11:25 AM

The blue PvP gear is nice for hybrids who want to try a different PvP spec as well. There's no way in hell Im grinding 200k honor or whatever for S1 gear to try out oomkin or resto just to find out I don't like it. Its a great addition simply for the resilience so that you don't just get insta-gibbed in the arenas.

deadlights · 02/05/08, 11:30 AM

For pretty much every HWL piece I've seen there are better easy to obtain alternatives as dungeon drops, rep rewards, crafted gear or even quest rewards. 98 resilience gets you nothing in the way of arena survivability and and the dps you get from HWL is absurdly sub par. It's like playing not to lose, trying to hedge your bet but ultimately you don't have enough survivability to justify the complete lack of dps (relative to other gear) you get from from high warlord. So you can't live long enough to stand up to respectable burst damage but you lack the burst damage at the same time.

I mean if that's for you then go for it but I'm not seeing it.

deadlights · 02/05/08, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

The blue PvP gear is nice for hybrids who want to try a different PvP spec as well. There's no way in hell Im grinding 200k honor or whatever for S1 gear to try out oomkin or resto just to find out I don't like it. Its a great addition simply for the resilience so that you don't just get insta-gibbed in the arenas.

Now this is an angle I admit I didn't think of as you likely aren't going to have 3 full sets of decent gear at 70 as a hybrid but like I said... 98 resilience is still an invitation to be instagibbed. I'm not seeing it as a worthwhile trade off considering the damage you can put out in that gear is laughable.

Malan · 02/05/08, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by deadlights

98 resilience gets you nothing in the way of arena survivability

What the hell? It offers a hell of a lot more survivability than my leather BT epics do. You need to stop and use some critical thinking skills. 140 (after socket/set bonus)98 > 0. Understand that? 0 Resilience = Instagib. 14098 Resilience may not be full S3 survivable, but for someone struggling in a 1500 or 1600 bracket, its enough to stay alive more than a minute.

Riallatar · 02/05/08, 11:36 AM

All of you saying that HWL gear sucks are completely missing the point.

It's not supposed to make you a God among men in the BGs.

It's supposed to give you a starting point, cut down on AFKs in the BGs themselves, and maybe, just maybe, motivate people to tough it out.

Think about if the only way to get ready for Karazhan was to rep up to Exalted in all of the Outland factions, getting 2-4 points of Reputation per kill starting at Neutral - with no quests to help out. Then, when you buy a piece of gear from the Rep vendor, they kick you back down to Neutral again. How fun would that be? That's Battleground PVP as it stands right now.

Pixen · 02/05/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by deadlights

Now this is an angle I admit I didn't think of as you likely aren't going to have 3 full sets of decent gear at 70 as a hybrid but like I said... 98 resilience is still an invitation to be instagibbed. I'm not seeing it as a worthwhile trade off considering the damage you can put out in that gear is laughable.

Consider the stam/armor increases on these pieces as well. My rogue just hit 70, terribly geared, with about 7.5k hp and 1.1k AP. In all likelihood I will have significantly better gear by the time 2.4 rolls around, but if it was now? You can bet I'd buy it and be thrilled. The ability to try out mace and sword spec without having to run out and pray for item drops (<10% in 5 mans?) would be a huge plus too.

Calencia · 02/05/08, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

I think it's only a bad idea if the stuff is really good. I have no problem and actually look forward to PVP items that are available through rep with the instance factions if it means it will help me get into arena's a little faster, or if it means I'll have more fun in BG's because I'm not dying all the time. But it's a bad thing if PVP people feel they have to grind rep with the instance faction just to get the items.

The "blue PvP gear on rep vendors" change is the one I'm most looking forward to, and I have a feeling I know the group they're aiming this change at: People with time limitations that like to PvP. (Note: Alts also fall in here, because who plays an alt full time? They're time-limited characters by their very definition.

) It takes a really, really long time to grind enough honor for S1 gear when you PUG almost exclusively, and the best gear you can get your hands on in the meantime has no resilience and an ilevel of 100ish.

If you think this sounds like I'm talking about my situation, you'd be right. And from the /inspects I do on my PUG teammates before the gates open or the bubble vanishes, it would initially appear I'm far from alone. I don't PvP on the listed character, though; I use this Hunter. (What a mess, huh? But it's the best I've been able to do so far.)

My only hopes are that this vendor gear has an ilvl around 115 (same as the BOP drops off non-Heroic 5-man bosses) and that it's itemized for PvP (more resilience please). It'll fill the gap nicely between the Halaa gear and the S1 epics and honor-vendor blues, and it'll help me help my team by not dying every 20 seconds.

Namoya · 02/05/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by deadlights

98 resilience gets you nothing in the way of arena survivability

Please go and check the HWL Gear again. It has 98 Resilience + 7 Resilience of Socket Bonus + 35 Resilience from Set Bonus = 140 Resilience. If you would now Socket all yellow Gemslots with [Steady Talasite] you have 148 Resilience which is pretty good to start Arena with it.
I just hope they won't put it too high (Revered or above) because it will help a lot less because then you can choose between grinding PvE or grinding PvP not very appealing. For any Hybrid Main Class this will be very welcome.

• Playered · 02/05/08, 11:46 AM

An explantion about the new combat log changes in 2.4 (note: its long)

Here, Source, whatever

Lavis Knight · 02/05/08, 12:04 PM

Do you all think they are starting to backpeddle a bit on their pvp claims about making arena more into an e-sport?

It seems as if they are now saying that "no diminishing returns on honor" and "the blue honor set on reputation" are in fact the big pvp changes that they told us they had planned several months ago.

Overall it has me disappointed, but maybe i expected too much?

Malan · 02/05/08, 12:04 PM

Assuming that the 2.4 PTR went up today (its not), we'd be looking at something like 4 months before its live right?