Four pages of irrelevant argument about HWL gear later, I didn't see anything except two new cooking recipes that just barely bore mentioning.
Here's hoping Blizzard releases some more info for us to have relevant posts over. I'd rather see a discussion about grey-area 2.4 relevant material in one thread, than 10+ seperate threads where these topics could "legitimately" branch-off into. All the OP needs to do is quick scan for quote and a source link. The first post in a thread like this is going to be the only one that matters. It's more of an informational thread than a discussion one, so what follows the OP is largely unimportant besides what can be pruned once added to the OP.
One thing which could do with adding which would make sense on RP servers as well is notes on the (mini)map, and possibly the ability to share such notes with other players.
That way you could even point people to coordinates, but it'd be indirectly (By adding a note to their map), as opposed to directly (By telling them the coordinates).
That seems more within the realm of scope of Blizzard (considering they've talked about putting an itemrack/threat meter built in), but this is a company notorious for not doing the "smart" thing the first time. Or the second time. Sometimes they get it right on the third time, and usually by the 4th time things are smoothed out to the point of mediocrity. They're also notorious for changing their mind when it actually comes time to impliment the things they said they would.
It's awe inspiring that nobody's been able to come up with a decent competitor to WoW in the PvE raiding market that actually has some PVP for players to engage in.
I don't buy it. They are implementing a threat meter and an itemrack into the UI. That's a lot more "videogamey" than some coordinates. Coordinates are a basic method of identifying anything on a grid, and surely could be implemented in a world of teleporters and death rays.
World Exploration is something that Blizzard wants to encourage, far more than "feeling out threat" or "swapping gear on a paperdoll".
Given X amount of time, wouldn't you rather have 3 pieces of vindicator and 5 pieces of HWL, rather than 2 pieces of S1, 1 pieces of vindicator, and the rest being level-up or dungeon crap with low stam and no resilience?
Are you seriously trying to tell me that as a pvp character, without the benefit of "free" t4/t5 (or even maybe t6 these days, depending on your guild) pve gear, you would rather NOT have +140 resilience, and a significantly higher amount of stamina, even if you are still mingling in the ~1400 rating?
Seriously, think about what you're saying.
Well first of all the vindicator boots and belt are more expensive than season 1 chest and helm, I believe. If not more expensive they are very close to the same price. But to my recollection S1 chest is 14.5k and Belt is closer to 16k. Only the Bracers are cheaper but they are 11k I think so not "cheap". So you aren't going to be able to afford the 3 pieces of Vindicator and 5 pieces of HWL for the same price as 2 pieces of season one and 1 piece of vindicator. So I'm not really sure where you are going with that question.
It's awe inspiring that nobody's been able to come up with a decent competitor to WoW in the PvE raiding market that actually has some PVP for players to engage in.
It takes a huge amount of time to put together a competitive MMO, and WoW has only been out for three years or so. Anybody that looked at what WoW had to offer when it was released and said "hm, we can do better than this" would still just be finishing their project now, even on a fairly quick development schedule. And for those who were already in development when WoW came out... well, they probably realized they needed a redesign to be competitive.
Considering there is 0 access to Epic gems outside of raiding at the moment I don't see how it would cripple jewelcrafting if you offered them via heroic badges. If you say charged 10 badges per gem.
You'd still have to find people to cut said gem.
You'd still have to find people with that particular pattern to cut said gem.
Being one of the handful of people on our server with a (nearly) complete selection of jewel crafting designs, all I can say is *OUCH* if this is real. I already handle a dozen or more gem cuts every single day, and if everyJoe and Moe can buy raw epic stones, I'll start to consider swapping to some other profession. The load of requests would just go mad. I do hope some of the assumptions made prove incorrect. If epic gems becomes free-for-all, then the designs have to be obtainable by everyone as well.
Being one of the handful of people on our server with a (nearly) complete selection of jewel crafting designs, all I can say is *OUCH* if this is real. I already handle a dozen or more gem cuts every single day, and if everyJoe and Moe can buy raw epic stones, I'll start to consider swapping to some other profession. The load of requests would just go mad. I do hope some of the assumptions made prove incorrect. If epic gems becomes free-for-all, then the designs have to be obtainable by everyone as well.
Are you seriously responding negativly to such a possible gold cow (in your case)?
edit: something like: /dnd I have the !craft addon, standing infront of org/SW mailbox. Trade me with your gem +10 gold and whisper me what cut you want.
could earn you tons of gold if you really are one of the only ones with those designs.
Well first of all the vindicator boots and belt are more expensive than season 1 chest and helm, I believe. If not more expensive they are very close to the same price. But to my recollection S1 chest is 14.5k and Belt is closer to 16k. Only the Bracers are cheaper but they are 11k I think so not "cheap". So you aren't going to be able to afford the 3 pieces of Vindicator and 5 pieces of HWL for the same price as 2 pieces of season one and 1 piece of vindicator. So I'm not really sure where you are going with that question.
It will almost certainly take less time to grind the rep to buy the HWL/GM pieces than the honor to buy the S1/Vindicator pieces. Particularly if any of them are on CE rep which takes literally 0 time to get to revered if you quest normally.
What the hell? It offers a hell of a lot more survivability than my leather BT epics do. You need to stop and use some critical thinking skills. 140 (after socket/set bonus)98 > 0. Understand that? 0 Resilience = Instagib. 14098 Resilience may not be full S3 survivable, but for someone struggling in a 1500 or 1600 bracket, its enough to stay alive more than a minute.
I don't understand this. I did arenas in my T4 gear from Kara on my rogue. 2v2 with a paladin. We weren't the best on the planet, but we made a respectable 1500-1600 most weeks. I had zero resilience. I didn't even respec for PvP. I went combat swords, with a PvE specced paladin as a healer. There were no occasions that I was "instagibbed", our losses were nearly always skill issues or PvP play issues, not lack of survivability due to gear.
Maybe in a 3v3 or 5v5 it's harder work, well dare I say, _work up to it_.
Either I'm a god amongst PvPers(*), or people here are serious whiners who want to jump straight into the 1700-1800 bracket without gearing up.
I see the addition of the PvP gear on outland vendors is to put people on the same footing. Sure, I'm never going to play at the 1800+ levels (nor do I want to) with my gear, spec and skill, but I also don't expect to. The same as the first moment I finish the Atamai Terrace do I expect to be able to zone into BT and kill Illidan.
Adding the PvP gear is a good thing. It provides a nice baseline for people who want to only do PvP. Gear up from there.
(*) Artists impression only, actual model may differ when purchased.
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
Rogues and Holy Paladin's and Warriors are probably the only classes that can start out in medium to low level arenas and compete without getting completely getting outclassed.
To this day, a rogue friend of mine will always wear more PVE DPS gear than resilience gear even into the lo 1600s on any size team. Why? Because unless a warrior is looking at you, no other class will instantly destroy you, and your job is to outdps/stun someone.
I don't understand this. I did arenas in my T4 gear from Kara on my rogue. 2v2 with a paladin. We weren't the best on the planet, but we made a respectable 1500-1600 most weeks. I had zero resilience. I didn't even respec for PvP. I went combat swords, with a PvE specced paladin as a healer. There were no occasions that I was "instagibbed", our losses were nearly always skill issues or PvP play issues, not lack of survivability due to gear.
Maybe in a 3v3 or 5v5 it's harder work, well dare I say, _work up to it_.
Either I'm a god amongst PvPers(*), or people here are serious whiners who want to jump straight into the 1700-1800 bracket without gearing up.
I see the addition of the PvP gear on outland vendors is to put people on the same footing. Sure, I'm never going to play at the 1800+ levels (nor do I want to) with my gear, spec and skill, but I also don't expect to. The same as the first moment I finish the Atamai Terrace do I expect to be able to zone into BT and kill Illidan.
Adding the PvP gear is a good thing. It provides a nice baseline for people who want to only do PvP. Gear up from there.
(*) Artists impression only, actual model may differ when purchased.
Are you referring to S1 in pve gear? It's wildly different now, and you very much can and will get gibbed w/o decent pvp gear, even at the 1500 level now. There are enough people that saved for a season to get a s2 weapon or what have you it's horrendous w/o a decent amount of resilience and stam.
Well first of all the vindicator boots and belt are more expensive than season 1 chest and helm, I believe. If not more expensive they are very close to the same price. But to my recollection S1 chest is 14.5k and Belt is closer to 16k. Only the Bracers are cheaper but they are 11k I think so not "cheap". So you aren't going to be able to afford the 3 pieces of Vindicator and 5 pieces of HWL for the same price as 2 pieces of season one and 1 piece of vindicator. So I'm not really sure where you are going with that question.
Oh god, just let it go. You're trolling at this point. Everyone but you agrees that the 70 blue pvp gear on rep vendors is a great change. Just drop it, please.
Being one of the handful of people on our server with a (nearly) complete selection of jewel crafting designs, all I can say is *OUCH* if this is real. I already handle a dozen or more gem cuts every single day, and if everyJoe and Moe can buy raw epic stones, I'll start to consider swapping to some other profession. The load of requests would just go mad. I do hope some of the assumptions made prove incorrect. If epic gems becomes free-for-all, then the designs have to be obtainable by everyone as well.
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if both the epic gems and designs made it to the greater population. It would not make sense to stick epic gems on a heroic vendor and leave the gem cut designs in Hyjal..
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if both the epic gems and designs made it to the greater population. It would not make sense to stick epic gems on a heroic vendor and leave the gem cut designs in Hyjal..
Or there is the possibility of creating new cuts of gems that are named slightly different from their Raid-only counterparts.
Even if they share almost or all of the gem stats, it would give access to high quality gems to the average player.
Look, no one's suggesting that HWL gear will somehow get you in the 1800's overnight, or even get you in the Arenas at all. It's just a starting point for the PvP grind. Most people that start it are in quest greens and normal dungeon blues and the HWL gear will just make them that much harder to one-shot in one of the several hundred BG's they'll have to go through, thus making it slightly more fun that it is right now.
That's all. The 2.4 change will mean you'll need (hopefully) honored rep with most TBC factions and a bit of gold (INSTEAD OF HONOR) to get a blue set that will just serve as getting you started. Nothing more. It won't make you the PvP King, everyone's aware of that, you'll simply get a boost in most important stats (compared to quest rewards). And as far as that goes, putting this kind of gear on vendors is, in my humble opinion, brilliant.
I don't understand this. I did arenas in my T4 gear from Kara on my rogue. 2v2 with a paladin. We weren't the best on the planet, but we made a respectable 1500-1600 most weeks. I had zero resilience. I didn't even respec for PvP. I went combat swords, with a PvE specced paladin as a healer. There were no occasions that I was "instagibbed", our losses were nearly always skill issues or PvP play issues, not lack of survivability due to gear.
There's nothing magical about you that makes you hard to kill so I am assuming that you are not talking about current PvP.
Blowing up a rogue in PvE DPS gear is not difficult for any class that can put its gunsights on it. They hit harder than totally fresh 70's, but that's about it. Like the enhancement shaman in the BT gear, they get obliterated when attacked because the PvE gear presupposes that if you are being hit, something has failed and you are going to die anyway.
Originally Posted by sordee
Rogues and Holy Paladin's and Warriors are probably the only classes that can start out in medium to low level arenas and compete without getting completely getting outclassed.
If by low level, you mean losing until you find AFKing teams or other teams wearing no gear.
Warriors, the most gear dependant class in the game, are not going to be effective with no gear against even S2 geared rogues, let alone anything else. A S2 geared rogue is a good deal harder to kill in melee than a fresh 70 warrior and puts out quite a bit more damage. A S1 rogue could put up quite a fight if he understood that he stood a chance.
Oh god, just let it go. You're trolling at this point. Everyone but you agrees that the 70 blue pvp gear on rep vendors is a great change. Just drop it, please.
In his defense, I can see the point that he is trying to make. Making HWL gear purchasable for gold and certain rep thresholds is a worthless change at worst or a bandaid at best.
Most of you are looking at this from a jaded prespective of having BT/HY level gear for your main character or spec and see this as an easy way to experiment with a off-spec or gear an alt. But for a vast majority of the playerbase which also happens to be casual, the grind for honor gear remains the worst grind in the history of MMO's. Of all the mind-numbing, soul crushing, tedious grinds the blizzards devs have thought up, the honor grind is the king of them all. And the simple fact is that this HWL gear off rep vendors does nothing to allievate the pain.
OK so 2.4 hits, everyone and his mom goes and buys HWL gear. Then what? Back to the thread mill for S1/Vindcator's gear. You are still looking at 270000+ honor to gear up two seasons below the best arena geared people. 270000+ honor from the same fucking 4 BG's over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
What is astounding is that is the tail end of the expansion and instead of fixing the honor system, they are releasing these stupid tweaks which will basically amount to pissing in the ocean for all the effect they are going to have.
Here is some "customer" feedback for Blizzard to consider:
- Add new BG maps pronto, nothing fancy just different themes with mirrored geography.
- Increase the honor gained for wins & losses by 30%
- Increase the honor gained from BG daily to 1000 honor
- Reduce the honor cost by 30% and marks required by 50% for honor gear
While historically I have always been impressed by the Blizzard attention to detail, nowadays I think they have gone the full circle and started believing their own hype. The only thing that impresses me now is how far stuck up their arse is their head. Change at the speed of molasses is not good all the time.
Are you referring to S1 in pve gear? It's wildly different now, and you very much can and will get gibbed w/o decent pvp gear, even at the 1500 level now. There are enough people that saved for a season to get a s2 weapon or what have you it's horrendous w/o a decent amount of resilience and stam.
My 30 resil, 9k hp hunter alt is sitting at 1564 rating in 2's, on a relatively large battlegroup, with a fire mage for a partner, on her first week of arena. Five of our losses were to outgearing by SL/SL warlocks. I am by no means an amazing PvPer, but those of you whining that you're completely nonviable in arenas without 150+ resil really need to consider what else you're doing wrong.
That said, the current PvP grind is stupendous - I can't take grinding over 1k honor a day, so being able to sub in the blue PvP pieces until I slowly gear up via a mix of arenas and casual BGing is a great design decision, and it'll certainly help with being stunlocked 100-0 by rogues with s1 maces.
On another note, has it been specified which pieces are available for purchase? If I'm not crazy, there was a blue neck and ring in s1 as well, so if those are buyable, that'd bump up available PvP gear still further.
Most of you are looking at this from a jaded prespective of having BT/HY level gear for your main character or spec and see this as an easy way to experiment with a off-spec or gear an alt. But for a vast majority of the playerbase which also happens to be casual, the grind for honor gear remains the worst grind in the history of MMO's. Of all the mind-numbing, soul crushing, tedious grinds the blizzards devs have thought up, the honor grind is the king of them all. And the simple fact is that this HWL gear off rep vendors does nothing to allievate the pain.
I have to completely disagree that the honor grind is the hardest grind. In no way does it compare to grinding in EQ circa planes of power, but more on topic it also doesn't even compare to the badge of justice/heroic/kara grind with a guild that is actually working progression in kara. On my mage I was grinding rep for scryer, rep for shat'ar, rep for thrallmar, grinding cloth, cash and primals for tailored gear, grinding badges in heroics, hoping for random drops in kara and heroics. It took me much more than 3 days played to get to my current standard of gear which still has room for improvement in PvE as a casual (kara/ZA geared).
My Rogue alt as he levels will have a much easier time of it as when he runs kara he will be grabbing upgrades after upgrade to prevent sharding of loot. But that is not how most people see Kara, they see it during progression with their guild of choice.
I look at the Honor grind and it doesn't seem so horrible, especially with the new changes coming to HK DR. I get 1 or 2 honor pieces a week via honor on my collection of toons, and I don't grind every day. Every single piece has made a difference in my pvp experience. It just doesn't feel horrible to me. Also the HWL gear will make a difference in the quality of the PvP experience prior to picking up of S1 gear. That is a real difference, it is the difference between getting steamrolled and fighting a good fight before dying.
My 30 resil, 9k hp hunter alt is sitting at 1564 rating in 2's, on a relatively large battlegroup, with a fire mage for a partner, on her first week of arena. Five of our losses were to outgearing by SL/SL warlocks. I am by no means an amazing PvPer, but those of you whining that you're completely nonviable in arenas without 150+ resil really need to consider what else you're doing wrong.
That said, the current PvP grind is stupendous - I can't take grinding over 1k honor a day, so being able to sub in the blue PvP pieces until I slowly gear up via a mix of arenas and casual BGing is a great design decision, and it'll certainly help with being stunlocked 100-0 by rogues with s1 maces.
On another note, has it been specified which pieces are available for purchase? If I'm not crazy, there was a blue neck and ring in s1 as well, so if those are buyable, that'd bump up available PvP gear still further.
People need to stop bringing up andedoctal evidence about their experience at low resilence levels. Even the slowest player in the world can work out that some classes have escapes/immunities from damage while others have to tank it.
People need to stop bringing up andedoctal evidence about their experience at low resilence levels. Even the slowest player in the world can work out that some classes have escapes/immunities from damage while others have to tank it.
That and battlegroup level vary a lot, and you might end up facing not so good pvpers, or people who don't care because they're in the 1400rating 10games a week thingie, and so on and on. The fact is, if you have crap for resilience, there's good chances you're going to get your ass handed to you for a decent amount of time while you get your gear.
Farming honor is rather fast, but extremly boring and annoying. You're forced to do BGs for marks even tho they're extremly inneficient in terms of honor(WSG pugs mainly, but AB or EoTS can be pretty bad too), and then you're "forced" to do the same old AV for honor, which barely involves any pvp to win anyway. Easier to get gear, or at least gear you can acquire solo, or while doing something else, is a good step in the right direction in my opinion. Sometimes, you just don't want to do AV, and playing more arenas won't get you more points once you hit your "cap" for your gear/composition.
While we have had a lot of exciting information to share in the last week, not everything is ready right now and we don't plan to rush into things like class changes that people keep bringing up. When we have more we'll share it.
That quote is *potentially* dishearteningly depressing, I'm really hating the over-large patches with so many changes that it takes forever to adapt, amend and quantify them all to allow it even on to the PTR which is likely to take atleast a month of testing to release onto live servers.
02/05/08, 5:34 PM
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