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02/07/08, 1:30 PM
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#751
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Don Flamenco
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As for the proposed ISB change, you have to admit it would be much easier to model. ISB fades if you fail to crit four times in a row and only affects the warlock, which means that with 40% crit, a 40/21 'lock would have 87% ISB uptime... a 35% crit 'lock would have a mere 82% uptime. An Affliction Lock with a 15% crit rate would have a 48% uptime and a 43/0/17+1 spec with 20% crit would have 59% ISB uptime. Current models make it look like ~60% uptime is the norm, so yeah, the change is a wash for Destro locks with a sane amount of crit.
As for the Lifetap change, I figure that Affliction warlocks will probably use Dark Pact a little more. Mana pots will be in vogue too.
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02/07/08, 1:44 PM
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#752
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Argium
No, but an elemental shaman doing 8k burst in 2k seconds on his own does. These changes are more to smoothen out outgoing damage so there's less [unhealable] burst damage. Unfortunately it does have a big impact on the PvE side, some people in guild were discussing the possibility of putting +nature damage on one of the warlock curses but that might just give people another reason to use a warlock over a mage in 5s if all it meant was the curse had to be put up before the nuke.
I'm also glad to see some mana burns nerfs too which in turn buff hunters a bit for mana drain purposes but more importantly we can see some longer games where all casters aren't burnt to 0 in the first few minutes - there definately needs to be some strategy to it.
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I'm going to assume you meant "two seconds" there, and not 2k seconds. While I admit such a burst is powerful, you can do this only once with NS, and it's still reasonably easy to screw with (unless you mean 3.6k to the first target and the lesser amounts to the others adding up to 8k... if you do, you're being silly as this is hardly burst) as you have to cast one of the spells (either LB or CL) not Nature Swiftnessed. In the meantime, Pyroblasts can hit for 6-7k with a single spell. Not to mention... most people on serious PvP teams that I know have 14k+ health. 8k is hardly "unhealable" in that context.
Powerful? Yes. Overpowered? I think that that's hard to argue. If they are out of line power-wise, it seems that it is a very slight thing, and there are many better ways to alter this for PvP without affecting PvE so heavily. LO not critting does much more to affect overall dps than max burst, and if it were burst they were targetting it'd be more logical to simply have CL trigger LO lightning bolts instead of LO chain lightnings (flight time).
I think it's become pretty obvious that these notes are fake however, so I won't be continuing this discussion here.
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02/07/08, 1:51 PM
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#753
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Deathwing
Taking overall more damage is different than being gibbed by crushing blows. And I do agree, druids do take more overall damage(I think it's about the same 10%). I don't know how much of a different overall damage will make from a healing perspective, I have never played one.
Looks like I was wrong about the armor cap stuff, my bad. Do paladins have it as bad?
Quick question about your armory. Why Idol of Brutality instead of Terror?
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More DPS, more TPS. I don't think the change, should it go live, would really make too much difference this late in the game to be honest. It's just another band aid fix to hold over till wotlk.
Even if you are perfectly aware, it is much easier to bring a lot of healers rather than zerg everything with DPS. Why would you stack melees on Illidan unless you were trying to set a world first on damage?
We have done Gurtogg with 7 healers, it isn't particularly difficult, but why bother if you can just bring 8 and make it trivial every time?
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Illidan is easier with 1 total demon phase then with 2. Gurtogg is easier with 3 felrages instead of 4. If you stack healers there is a chance they will get bored and slack off, causing a wipe. Our raids are much smoother when we are short 1 healer rather then +1 healer. By your logic why not bring 15 healers?
Despite what your guild might think there are more important things than DPS, else why isn't your guild setting the world firsts if you're the best at DPS.
Regarding shadow priest synergy, the most important synergy is mana production. The only way they can stop nerfing shadow priest damage is if they nerf VT, which they probably should. I think everyone on farm mode is forgetting just how amazing infinite healer mana is on a progression fight.
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Because we raid 4 days a week for 4 hours instead of 7 days a week for 16 hours. What is the point of caring about world first kills when only 2-3 guilds in the world can put in enough time to have any shot at them when hundreds of guilds can compete for faster kill times for months on end? I guess the added benefit is that you get to post in the 'we are so bored of farming content qq bliz' threads a month or two ahead of every one else.
Anyway since this is all about shadow priests, and my point was that they really aren't needed except by guilds who insist that healing>*** there is no reason to nerf them in this manor. Whatever.
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02/07/08, 1:52 PM
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#754
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Wyrmrest Accord
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Originally Posted by Buiden
Ok, you bring your low healer raid and clear BT/Hyjal in 6 hours, we'll bring our inferior and excessive 9 and do the same, in 5.5 hours.
Despite what your guild might think there are more important things than DPS, else why isn't your guild setting the world firsts if you're the best at DPS.
Regarding shadow priest synergy, the most important synergy is mana production. The only way they can stop nerfing shadow priest damage is if they nerf VT, which they probably should. I think everyone on farm mode is forgetting just how amazing infinite healer mana is on a progression fight.
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It depends on the skill of your healers. If you have healers that know what they're doing then you can afford to bring less and increase dps. Abananax has a rep for bring excessive amounts of dps and they're good at it, it works for them. My guild just recently started raided a little over a month ago with our first Gruul kill. We're now 5/6 SSC 3/4 TK after only a little over a month. Our raid set-up looks very similar to Abananax.
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02/07/08, 1:53 PM
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#755
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Warrior
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Zhoreilh
We do not compete with prot warrior, we are something else : a tank dps/hybrid, and arguably the only one. I don't think it make us less usefull.
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Sorry... this is not true. Assuming end-game gear a protection warrior will usually out-dps a feral. Example: Teron
However, Ferals bring raid utility that brings them up to par.
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02/07/08, 1:58 PM
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#756
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Piston Honda
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Assuming again that these patch notes / meeting notes / internal theorizing notes are accurate, one kernel of actual interesting thought that emerges here is Blizz's general intent (no matter how broken/damaged their implementation of that intent turns out to be).
I think all of the theorycrafting warlocks had the same reaction I did when the ISB "nerf" was brought out -- that it's intended to lessen the power of 0/21/40, which is a fairly tedious but 'optimal' build to play, and that it reduces the power of warlocks. The fact that it's been theorycrafted to actually moderately improve the (individual) lot of the 0/21/40 player is probably no surprise given, e.g., the debacle that was rolling ignites proving that theory at Blizz often happens in a vacuum.
The key point though is that Blizz appears to be interested in taking locks down a power level, reducing cross-shadow synergy, and additionally making fire valid, rather than an RP choice, in endgame raiding.
Power level - I'm already seeing warlock influence waning at the 4/5 4/9 gear level. Where previously we were the top of the charts, now I see a lot of BM macro hunters, mages, and great-weapon rogues starting to challenge us, even on lock-friendly fights. It'll be interesting to see where we fall. Given that we're *also* having our synergy evaluated for reduction, that suggests pretty strongly that we're going back to the Naxx days of small numbers of affliction warlocks being brought for primarily CoE/CoR debuff purposes -- as most other classes now have significant synergy gains as well.
Synergy reduction - This is a little surprising given that Blizz has made a lot of pro-synergy moves at and since the release of BC. Whether this signifies a general reversal of policy or particular problems in the shadow area it's hard to say. About all I can guess is that perhaps shadow is getting some interesting top-end talents for warlocks and priests at 80 that would make this sort of synergy completely unfair. Still, it would be nice for Blizz to come out with some proactive pro-synergy moves for what is currently trending towards a selfish one-dimensional class.
Fire - Fire is interesting, but it goes against a fair amount of decent mid-game gear, and it runs into the same sort of scaling/synergy problems that ISB has. If Blizz makes fire viable I suspect most warlocks will switch over to it, leaving the shadow priests high and dry, if only because it's different and has a cooler graphic. But casting two different schools (shadow for curses + dots, fire for nuke and one dot) opens up gearing and resist questions that might prove hard to balance (cf. elementalist mages).
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02/07/08, 2:00 PM
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#757
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Natural
Sorry... this is not true. Assuming end-game gear a protection warrior will usually out-dps a feral. Example: Teron
However, Ferals bring raid utility that brings them up to par.
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A prot warrior that did almost 1900 dps? I would call you a liar and laugh if you hadn't just proved it...
Jesus christ. Many DPS specs can barely attain that.
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02/07/08, 2:04 PM
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#758
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Piston Honda
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One option I would like to see considered is the moonkin crit aura refunding mana. I've been dead set against it until the last page in this thread. However while trying to defend against shadow priest dps nerfs I think my opinion has completely changed. I've been for protecting the uniqueness of the mana battery aspect of shadow priests but shadow weaving and 5% more magic damage on top of the mana return pretty much guarantees a single raid spot in every raid. There is little point to bring two of them, and the same would be said for all the moonkin buffs that don't stack very well with two in a raid.
It could also be possible to raid without a shadow priest for once should moonkins be a semi-viable, albeit less ideal, alternative.
I've pretty much noticed a trend of there being a large motivation to have a single offspec of every type in a raid but more then one being rather pointless and this change alone could solve both the over representation of priests and under representation of druids in 25 mans.
Or maybe I just can't get moonkin off my mind since I have to sit here as feral for 6 more hours until za is done before spending the weekend with DMF trying to one shot warriors for 12k.
Anyway is there a negative side I'm missing to moonkin aura providing mana refunds?
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02/07/08, 2:08 PM
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#759
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Buiden
Ok, you bring your low healer raid and clear BT/Hyjal in 6 hours, we'll bring our inferior and excessive 9 and do the same, in 5.5 hours.
Despite what your guild might think there are more important things than DPS, else why isn't your guild setting the world firsts if you're the best at DPS.
Regarding shadow priest synergy, the most important synergy is mana production. The only way they can stop nerfing shadow priest damage is if they nerf VT, which they probably should. I think everyone on farm mode is forgetting just how amazing infinite healer mana is on a progression fight.
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Total raid time has other factors such as people showing up on time swapping in people if gear if needed etc. I was simply stating that it decreases our raid time not saying we clear BT and Hyjal faster than everyone else in the world.
Setting world firsts requires raiding more than 4 days a week. I doubt our progression per time invested is that much lower than many of the top guilds but we will never be able to compete in world firsts without raiding at least 6 days a week. I don't think any of the top 10 world kills have ever been done with guild that only raids 4 days a week.
I never said dps was the most important thing for a guild to worry about. I said I find it enjoyable. Actually I think I outlined how it is sometimes harder on healers (however thats why I like it) as well as its benefits.
I never said anything about your guild being inferior nor did I mean to imply anything of the sort. You asked why we raided the way we do I responded about why I enjoy our raid style and why I don't want to bring so many healers to make everything trivial. However if you think our methods don't lead to progression look at Blood Legion, who is competitive for world firsts, and you will see similar raid makeup and style (DPS emphasis).
Last edited by Daidalos : 02/07/08 at 2:21 PM.
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02/07/08, 2:11 PM
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#760
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Soda Popinski
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Keep in mind that mage dps really goes by cycles. Our base dps is relatively poor, however, our cooldowns (of which I include: icy veins, combustion, water elemental, cold snap, arcane power, presence of mind, molten fury (!)) allows us to get very good dps. Problem is, the longer the fight takes (particularly when learning new bosses), you will see a sharp decline in mage dps. Destruction warlocks have no cooldowns, thus I do expect somewhat linear DPS, whereas I know for mages the longer the fight lasts, I am far more likely to take a severe dps loss because I need very precise cooldown timing to sustain my dps.
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<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS.
Very Manly Staff
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02/07/08, 2:12 PM
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#761
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Warrior
Tichondrius
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While I don't believe the majority of these notes, I do agree that moonkin mana should be addressed. Currently, the most synergistic caster group has:
-Boomkin
-Elemental shaman
-3 happy casters.
If those happy casters are warlocks or mages, then the entire group is going to be doing great DPS with one exception--the Druid runs out of mana. You can put a shadow priest in that group (who would be happy), but then three of the four party members with the shadowpriest wouldn't really need the mana (elemental, mages and/or locks). Putting a shadowpriest in the group really only benefits the druid, which is even less optimal if you have another mage or warlock sitting out of the Boom group who is jealous.
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02/07/08, 2:17 PM
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#762
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Priest for Hire
Sordee
Tauren Priest
No WoW Account
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The moonkin portion seems very reasonable. The only part that's missing is the 6s cooldown that it will surely need.
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02/07/08, 2:20 PM
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#763
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Great Tiger
Worgen Death Knight
Executus
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Really the current raiding game doesn't support stacking healers, regardless of what people's opinions are. In a Shadowpriest group, with 8 or more healers, I average something retarded like 60% overheal. I do cast/cancel, but with so many chain heals (resto shamans) and with tanks never ever needing heals (2 Resto druids, 1 Paladin on tank) I find myself with lack of a role.
Conversely, Gurtogg with 6 healers - 2 Resto Shamans, 2 Resto druids, a Holy Priest and a Paladin was quite possibly the most "fun" I've ever had as a healer. I had 15% Overheal for the fight. I wish we did that every week. I didn't feel that my efforts were wasted at all like when we have 8 healers.
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02/07/08, 2:21 PM
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#764
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foreign contaminant
Tauren Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by xyruul
One option I would like to see considered is the moonkin crit aura refunding mana. I've been dead set against it until the last page in this thread. However while trying to defend against shadow priest dps nerfs I think my opinion has completely changed. I've been for protecting the uniqueness of the mana battery aspect of shadow priests but shadow weaving and 5% more magic damage on top of the mana return pretty much guarantees a single raid spot in every raid. There is little point to bring two of them, and the same would be said for all the moonkin buffs that don't stack very well with two in a raid.
It could also be possible to raid without a shadow priest for once should moonkins be a semi-viable, albeit less ideal, alternative.
I've pretty much noticed a trend of there being a large motivation to have a single offspec of every type in a raid but more then one being rather pointless and this change alone could solve both the over representation of priests and under representation of druids in 25 mans.
Or maybe I just can't get moonkin off my mind since I have to sit here as feral for 6 more hours until za is done before spending the weekend with DMF trying to one shot warriors for 12k.
Anyway is there a negative side I'm missing to moonkin aura providing mana refunds?
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I've been pushing for this for probably 8 months now, and I think it's a very valid improvement to the Balance spec. It could be tuned such that it wouldn't be overpowered, and would provide some much-needed utility.
@ Blizzard - I hereby release my rights to this awesome idea, under the singular condition that you use it.
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Originally Posted by Theras
Frankly I don't know how you non-Nordic people can breed in good conscience.
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02/07/08, 2:24 PM
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#765
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Natural
Sorry... this is not true. Assuming end-game gear a protection warrior will usually out-dps a feral. Example: Teron
However, Ferals bring raid utility that brings them up to par.
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This pretty much proves my point about the NI change. Warriors do have an absolute ridiculous monopoly on good itemization. I could push 2.2k dps if I didn't have to compete with 3-4 rogues, 2-3 enhance shaman (since all mail is terrible), 2-3 hunters and another druid for all the same items that never drop. DPS warriors are always the first class to finish gearing up, and tanking warriors are usually the first to finish their offspec sets (dps). In this respect it makes sense for such a huge buff like Nurturing Instinct change since it's likely to continue in Sunwell. I'm sure it will get reworked in wotlk though.
Last edited by xyruul : 02/07/08 at 2:29 PM.
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