I've been keeping an eye on this thread since it started, and I have seen some rather interesting points being made here. And while I do agree that nobody needs a tutorial on how to play the game (heck, even a newcomer can pick that up in 10 levels), there's still a huge gap between the skills that progressing to level 70 provides you with, compared to what is expected of you to actually progress at level 70.

I agree that an explicit "this is the best threat rotation" or "this is the best dps rotation" or even "this is the most efficient healing spell" are not the way to go. However, as stated countless times, the core mechanics of threat and aggro, of burst, dps and dpm, of mana regeneration, of attack tables and critical/crushing immunities are not even hinted at.

What the game really lacks is a good old fashioned set of tweaking tools, and an interface rework. A threatmeter, a damage meter, and even a healing meter included BY DEFAULT into the standard Blizz UI would go a long way to improving your average non raiding WOW player. Why they are not already in the game, and why they weren't in the game in the first place is beyond me. It can't be a matter of being too difficult to implement (look at the BGs, they have damage counters there), and it sure as hell can't be a matter of spoiling the gaming experience with useless numbers, or there wouldn't be floating numbers above the target every time.

Combined with these new displays, an instanced "Hall of Arms", with specific practice dummies, and relevant comparison data from other players is a good example of tweaking tool. Competition and perfectionism are innate to the human being. Everyone wants to have bigger numbers than his friends, neighbours or even himself. that's what raiding progression is based on; that's why people apply and join raid guilds; that's why people join arena teams and compete in the brackets. It's just a matter of the amount of effort they're willing to put into the game. And it's not a matter of lazy or hard working. But some people play the game to get away from boring numbers and pages of theory. Some people think using to addons to reveal the game mechanics takes away the fun. Some people spend their spare time playing, and simply aren't in the mood to do a web wide search for tips. There's lots of reasons, but many of these people who are willing to improve would actually do so if it meant logging in the game and experimenting for half an hour, rather than spending that half an hour sifting through forums, that don't even explain the basic mechanics, and simply move into min maxing.

Now, I'm sure people (both hardcore and casuals) could argue that we're feeding them everything we learned in 3 years on a silver plate. Yes and no. There's still a lot of tricks to be learned. I'm sure fights like Razorgore, Thaddius, Teron or Kael speak for themselves, and everyone who's ever done them has enriched their experience by a bit every time. It's just that the gap will be less painful and less visible. This kind of learning curve should be reset; it actually is, more or less (Gruul pre nerfs, Brutallus ~ Patchwerk; Big Bad Wolf ~ Buru the Gorger, Skyriss ~ Sekram, Solarian ~ Gheddon and so on). It will still not be the same as the original experience, but it's still a good way of instilling the recurrent mechanics of raid bosses onto people.

On another note, you can know all there is about how the game works and the end result is still not a real raider. There is still the "get out the fucking fire already!" factor, the "did you understand what I just said?" and the "how the fuck did you run out of ammo on the third trash pull?" factor, that no amount of in game or out of game coaching will ever fix. XI, despite the harsh words, is basically right to the core. There is still a matter of common sense and basic human reactions; failing those, there is no learning curve whatsoever.

Why? Why is WoW different, special, whatever? Why do we hold WoW to a different standard than we would other games? Because it's popular? Because it's a MMORPG, and those are allowed to throw everything out the window from all the games learned before? I don't think so. Just because it's been successful doing so thusfar doesn't mean it's the correct way.

Again, no one is saying tell people everything. Not saying, "Hey, on Leo, you should have a warlock off-tank. And he should be specced this way. And he should have a lot of FR gear. And he should try to tank over here. O and when he gets too many debuffs toward the end, a pally DIing him is a great idea." What I am saying is that there should be a "Hey, this is how you tank shit" quest. Step back, try to remember your first party you were in, and try to remember how much of a clue you had to what was going on. Basically, your argument now is that enough people know what's going on now that Blizzard shouldn't have to worry about it. If they can't get the information from /1, well then they're idiots. I just don't get this mindset. I just don't see what harm basic role-learning tutorial quests would put into place would do. Much like the first level in a FPS puts you against a slow ass dude that's not very smart, why can't WoW have an escort quest where you have to keep the NPC members of your escort party alive by holding threat while keeping your avoidance? Why is this a bad thing?

There's two reasons TBC raiding is easier than Vanilla raiding: the smaller size of raids, and how much more we know about the game. Even the first part is fairly minor -- I suspect that with the knowledge and tools we have now, 25 people could have absolutely destroyed all of the raid content pre-Naxx with the items and game mechanics from when the instances were added to the game. Even Attumen is a vastly harder and more complicated fight than phase 1 of Onyxia, but it took a hell of a lot longer to get past phase 1 of Onyxia than it took to kill Attumen. Other than Naxx, saying that the fights were actually harder pre-TBC shows very bad memory of what the game was like prior to TBC.

Honestly, I don't know why I don't see it as cheating in WoW.

The other day I was playing Hitman Bloodmoney and was having trouble getting SA on a particular mission and decided to look up a guide or strategy. I've beaten the game multiple times, but could never get SA rating on this given mission, I felt like I was cheating in this case, but I felt it was necessary.

If you want to participate in high-end WoW raiding, its necessary to "cheat" ("Improve" if you ask me) by using the forums, EJ, google or whatever to find information relevant to your class to improve your play. The design flaw in WoW that makes this necessary information unavailable in the standard UI, or elements of play that aren't readily apparent are too large and deep-seated to be addressed in the game with some sort of tutorial or in game guide.

Forums such as EJ are absolutely the best solution there is to teaching people to play/raid better. The best thing Blizz could implement in the game is a threat meter and damage meter in the standard UI, that and put relevant class facts in some menu available in game that gives you all the important numbers a certain class needs to know, warrior defense rating to be uncrit/crushable, priest spirit to regen, etc, etc.

Anything more than that should and is covered outside of the game. Putting everything you could possibly ever need and want to know about a class somewhere in the game would be overwhelming if you ask me. Hunter shot rotation illustrated thread comes to mind, do you expect blizzard to put something like that in a help menu in game? For every class no less. Its just too much information to be available in the game interface. Plus, its all already here, so why bother? If someone WANTS to improve, they WILL use the resources available to them (The internet, google, EJ, guildies) to improve.

If YOU feel thats cheating, then thats your problem to deal with, considering how many people flock Thott, Allakhazam, EJ, the official forums, something tells me you're in the smaller crowd.

[Edit] I managed to only address the first part of your post in my rant, whoops.

The first time I was in a group on my hunter doing an instance was WC and I didn't know anything other than I should probably stick with the group, shoot what everyone else was attack, and I already knew that if something was hitting me, something was wrong and it was probably my fault. Thats a basic enough knowledge to get me through Karazhan.

I learned later while leveling that I could put down a trap that froze mobs and effectively took them out of the game for a short time while I killed another mob. This basic knowledge of CC is enough to make it through heroics/Kara.

I also learned that FD was my friend, I learned that in instances if I pulled aggro (WTB threat meter?) I should FD and the tank will pick the mob up and I should probably cool the dps jets for awhile. This is enough to get through early 25 mans.

The only time I could see a tutorial quest being at all helpful is for tanks to learn what skills are best to use for threat. And even then, I don't think the game should have to spoon feed you all this information, I made a warrior recently and the first thing I did before I needed to tank anything was look up basic warrior tanking strategy. I would assume that your average person would look up or at the very least ASK someone who is a tank how they do it.

Basically, I don't think the game should spoon feed the inept morons that infest the land. If they give two shits about getting better, then they will, by looking up what they want to know.

Every (good) RTS, and some of the more modern FPSs (cf Portal) do teach you very advanced tactics, by creating a mission specifically engineered that you have to use said advanced trick in order to complete it. So yes, other games absolutely see it as imperative to teach higher-level tactics.

The major difference between these games and WoW is this: in other games learning the tactic is required. Because progression in a less open-ended world is more tightly controlled, it's impossible to beat, say, the zomg siege tanks level without zomg amounts of siege tanks (or being astoundingly better than the averge player already, where you don't need the tutorial). Meanwhile, there is absolutely no reason for a healing class to learn how to heal by the time they hit 70, etc. Not only that, but in other games the unit doesn't exist without some guide for using it. You don't see siege tanks at all until the zomg siege tanks level. But WoW allows players to fall into poor healing habits from level 6 or whatever, and lets them sit there for 64 levels before they actually start mattering.
Not that I'm saying there should be absolute cockblocks to leveling in WoW based on skill; I'm just pointing out that's a major difference in the approaches to tutorials. Playing through what looks like 90% of the game and suddenly an unforseeable, unprecedented alteration in what the game really is, is usually seen as poor game design. There's at least foreshadowing that intelligent players might think "hey maybe I can use this thing I learned from the zomg siege tanks level" instead of being expected to sink or swim.

And the idea of looking WoW things up on the internet is a double-standard. This seems quite obvious to me. The intarwebz are cheating for other games and cheapen the experience, but they're the de facto standard for being able to play WoW at a certain level. How is that intuitive? Someone who has played other games will have a completely natural, completely reasonable aversion to using the internet to find information. Quite a lot of people (especially 'elitists' of a type) would rather quit a game than hop on google looking for hints. To expect such a reversal of fundamental attitude towards playing is hubris.

I find it absurd to quit a game rather than look up a hint somewhere. Why not just butt your head at the problem for a little while instead of just quitting? Or better yet, LOOK SHIT UP.

I honestly just see WoW in a different light than other games when it comes to "cheating" by looking up information.

I suppose technically, yes, looking up quest coords on thott is "cheating". But does it matter? No, outside of botting, what is cheating in WoW? Certainly not looking up the best way to DPS, or tank, or heal.

But if theres really people out there who would rather QUIT than look up how to play better, all I have to say is good, quit, I don't want to ever have the misfortune of grouping with them.

I'm here, aren't I? And, given what I know of the game, what information is transparent in-game, and what's necessary to be good at the game, I don't think that coming here is cheating. Although I do feel bad every time I look up coords. I still do it, but feel bad.

My point isn't about whether coming here is cheating or not. My point is that if you're just starting the game, and you're not aware of all the stuff that just isn't available to you in-game, that you might think it's a bit weak to have to go search for it on the web. I.e. From a starting perspective (and without the benefit of years of experience as we all have) it's not intuitive that you would need to find an outside source to be good (not acceptable or decent or passable, but good[also not excellent or amazing, just somewhere in the middle]) at your class.

I can be good at a FPS without searching advanced techniques on the net. It's probable that were you to look up damage for each gun at what range and what part of the body you could even hit excellent. But that's not really necessary to just be good. In WoW, if you don't know about the 490 defense rule, the avoidance and hit tables leading to uncrushable( and therefore the value of holy shield/shield block per mana/threat), or how mechanics like taunt work, you can't be good. You can certainly be passable. You'll be able to tank some stuff. But you won't be good. If you want to be excellent, then you come here for the advanced theorycrafting.

But that middle step, the being good at it. That should be available strictly from within the game. I know tanks that are good, end of TK/SSC level main tanks for their guilds, and they don't know why you need 490 defense. They're not fully aware of how a bosses hit table works, and how crushings happen. People have told them these are the numbers to strive for, and so they do. But there's nothing inherent in the game that would suggest that should even be the case. And that's the part I think isn't being done correctly.


E: Dukes: So if you play a game like Myst and you look up the solutions to the puzzles that's not cheating? That's searching for help. Personally, I consider it cheating in that it's using an unfair advantage (given that the constructs of the game are fair) in order to achieve a solution. Same with WoW, only for whatever reason I don't think that the constructs of the game are fair. And that's the part I'm taking issue with.

Also, I believe you inadvertently supported my post. Just because people would get information doesn't mean they'd be good at it. Would still take practice and some skill(button mashing...yay!). So why not provide a little more information and transparency?

Since when did I state I was for or against anything? This is a discussion forum, so it's discussion. Whether that discussion leads to somewhere useful isn't a given, and people don't have to take "sides" of a discussion, and I don't see why I can't discuss an individual point in semi-isolation. I said a while back that I was very much for tutorials in some form or other, or at least implementing threat/damage/healing meters for people to track their progress regardless of tutorials.

The point I was discussing in that post was how the term "cheating" relates to WoW, no more no less.

Discussion point: If the constructs of the game are not fair in the first place, how does searching for help mean you're getting an "unfair" advantage?

Sorry this is deceptive, what you mean is:
"RTS games have levels where you keep failing until you start using certian units/tactics; you have to work out the trick."
The games teach you by making you fail until you get it.

Wow has this, they are called instances.

[e]
To add.
Noone zoned into MC knowing what we know now, it was learnt through a mixtire of theorycraft but mostly straight up wiping. What is wrong with asking people to go into Kara and wipe until they learn enough to kill bosses ?

At this level I agree with Anias that the game could make diagnosis of wipes a little easier, and probably aid that learning process.

Honestly, I don't think you need to do anything outside of 5 mans to be "just good" at a class. I'm sure we can all agree that hunters are a "hard" class to master as far as raiding dps is concerned. Before I ever knew about EJ, or shot rotations or anything, I was anywhere from 5-8th on damage meters on gruul with people who knew about their class and knew "advanced" strategies for doing dps.

I didn't use aimed shot, I didn't use serpent sting, I didn't ignore steady shot, I definitely clipped autos, but at that point it didn't matter much.

This is without ever setting foot outside of the game for help. I didn't really ask anyone for help with hunters, because I felt that I was doing OK.

Obviously I later learned I could do much better, but for your average Joe, it was fine, using only what was learned in the game from leveling 1-70, BG's, arena, 5 mans, Kara, etc.

I don't think that some transparent aspects of the game shouldn't have some light shed on them -- they should, but for your average Joe who has half a brain and can learn from 5 mans, everything is fine as is. But again, if they want to raid and be the best they can be, they need to learn from outside sources.

It's poor game design. Using an unfair advantage to counteract an unfair game is an undesirable situation. If you're taking the unfair game as given it's a reasonable reaction, which I think means I agree with the sentiment you're voicing. My point is, the game itself shouldn't be unfair in that way. And there is justification for saying that WoW is.

You're almost correct in what you said, but this gets into my later point that instances are completely optional until well past level 70, and even then, the pre-70 ones are tuned to not require particularly good gameplay. So your average player will succeed without learning the tricks, or fail and still move along, or not encounter the instance in the first place. There's very little sense that the leveling instances are building towards 70 instances, or that the 70 instances build towards raid knowledge. Rather than requiring someone to master skills they'll need later on, they do just the opposite in encouraging someone to stick with the sloppy habits they've fallen into. The fact that people do level to 70 and have trouble with "don't stand in the fire" means that these 'tutorials,' such as they are, don't remotely approach what an RTS might do.

There's absolutely a slippery slope in introducing higher-level concepts to player, that you don't want to be spoon-feeding them every detail about how to play their class. If you were to go with symmetry towards RTS tutorials (treating the SP campaigns as a MP tutorial), the model is that you introduce concepts individually, once, and leave the player to remember they exist, figure out when different ones apply, and train to be able to do several at once.
As an example, from a healer perspective: three bosses in an instance having the gimmicks that require, one at a time, "conserve your mana" "heal more than one target" and "get out tha way" would be considered sufficient training for a raid boss ten levels later whose three phases require each pair of those concepts in turn. (So long as you actually need to learn those concepts to beat the encounters!)
Of course, that's just my opinion. But considering how casual-friendly WoW claims to be there is some cognitive dissonance in how much information and skills aren't introduced or available in-game that become 'necessary' at some point, and it makes me wonder if the point where it does become necessary is the barrier to entry for the more casual audience.

Your reading comprehension skills are suspect at best.
1) Umm what? We're saying someone that has the tools, but not the knowledge. How many people do you personally know that figured out the defense amount, or the resistance cap?
2) Ya, this point boggles me. You obviously didn't read anything on this last page. Try scrolling up, taking a second, and actually reading. Please.
3/4) This isn't just about raiding, although it's obviously the most apparent place. I've often grouped in PuG's with people who don't know what the fuck they are doing, and have no real idea of how to get better.
5) Expounding on 3/4, if you're in a more backward guild, the people you're friends with very well might have no idea what you're doing wrong. Additionally, there's no way you would even know you're sucking, just that the content seems to be way more difficult for your group for no apparent reason.

I don't get your animosity. Basically, your whole point rests on the fact that since you were able to figure out stuff, everyone should. Anyway, before I'm actually offensive, I'm going to cut my losses and step back. If you'd like to actually read the arguments and post constructively I'll welcome your discussion.

No, I'd like the game to actually teach some skills explicitly rather than just requiring you to have them. How difficult would it be to have a library in SI:7 with some books on the walls that actually said things like "Slice'n'Dice is the most important move a rogue can use: make sure to keep it running at all times" or "Rupture is unmatched in sustained fights because it does high damage while costing low energy" or "Attacking from behind prevents your opponent from parrying your attacks". It could of course be dressed up in slightly more RP-appropriate language. Drop in a breadcrumb quest every 10 levels that tells you to return to the library to read up on your skills, and throw in target dummies that let you practice DPS in a controlled environment.

There are many ways Blizzard could facilitate the acquisition of player skill - right now it's left 100% to the community. And speaking as one of the people that's dragged half a dozen nub rogues up and taught them how to play better, I'm sodding tired of it, and would appreciate being able to say "Go away and read up on things, practice on the target dummies and come back when you hit 1K DPS"

At this point in the game, I seriously think that since all the resources needed are readily available here, theres no reason or incentive for Blizz to put any tutorial-like quests in the game, other than maybe a link to EJ.

I still say that if your average person can't be "good enough" just from soloing and 5 mans, then they're completely hopeless and the amount of time spent teaching them isn't worth whatever little reward you would get (Grats, Timmy did 600 dps on Gruul tonight, up from 250, thank you target dummy quest!).

Not to turn this about but...
My post was in response to PSGarak saying that 5man instances dont work as a teaching tool because people can skip them. In that sense my response makes perfect sense, you cant skip them and gear up/get attuned without actually showing some verybasic level of competance in 5man instanecs and therefore they are percectly acceptable as a medium for teaching.

Ill say this agian because some of you dont get it.

Blizzard cannot write class guides because they dont understand class mechanics until the player base explains it to them. If you think players are bad now think how bad players would be if they were taught by tutorials from the same people putting spirit on every fucking class set, and massess of intellect on enhance/ret/paladin prot sets. These are the genii who had to hchange loot from kel'Thuzarrd because of theorycrafting on this forum and you are telling me they can write a guide to hunter shot rotations when they cant even figure out what fucking speed to make bows ?

Not only that but they would have to rewrite every single quest and guide whenever new mechanics came out; the guides for pre-TBC would not just be defunct now, they would be downright misleading. and everytime you tried to help anyone they would simply say "STFU I know my class, I did Quest XYZ and blizzard said this is how to play so STFU".

Putting these guids in would be a massive, continual and never ending strain becuase they would need updating for every single tiny fucking change in class mechanics, or talents, or itemization. And they would all become defunt whenever there was an expansion/class chage/mechanics change. Not only that but they would almost certainly be wrong even when freshly release because blizzard dont have a fucking clue how half their mechanics interact: look at weapon skill, look at the first form of expertise, look at haste and how it is a negative stat for hunters and MS warriors, hell look at itemization since day 1, look at the issues with threat scaling, or dps scaling for classess such as shadow priests. Blizzard can't write these guides because they do not have the same amount of time to decode the mechanics as the playerbase, at this point blizzard are not telling players how to play any class; the player base is actually informing blizzard.

What you are asking for would not only take up vast resources (thats a guide and quests for 9 classess, each with 9 specs, each probably requiring multiple quests and guides on each aspect of skills, talents, and itemization). Those guides would almost certainly be inferior to anything the community could supply and would provide an active motivation for blizzard to not update classess because now class patches take 100 times longer to impliment while they update all their in game guides.

Its bad for the game, get over the fact you need to read a forum to be better thant he average mouth-breather who cant get through pug normal slavepens without fucking up. But do you know what ? Its hard enough trying to educate the internet 1 retard at a time without that retard turning around and saying "Hey STFU I did the official blizzard guide (tm) and they said to do this so you are a noob".

As for general stuff ?
You want a tutorial on pulling, goto deadmine at 19.
YYou want a tutorial on moving and healing, goto mechanar, second boss.
You want a tutorial on holding aggro, try every instance, particularly later ones and particularly heroics.
Want a tutorial on CC, any heroics will do.

Its all in the game already, so can we please let this drop.

They don't work. Just last night a guildmate wanted me to talk to a rogue friend of his who was disappointed with his DPS. I know his guild is in kara, and he had garona's ring off curator and a few other 5 man instance drops.

So he's done instances. He's even in a raid. But...

He had a 2.2 mainhand sword and a 1.8 offhand dagger. His talent spec was fine (pretty standard combat swords), but his choice of offhand was not good...it's the epic dagger drop off Moroes, but much too slow for his offhand...and not a sword. He'd be better off with the 1.6 green sword quest reward, I think. And his gems were a mix of various stats, mostly to match sockets...but it's hard to know what is best without help.

Finally, I talked to him about rotations (5s/5r being a good place to start)...and he didn't use slice and dice.

So, here's a guy running instances. In the intro raid zone. And downing bosses. But clearly, the game didn't teach him anything...and being a rogue, it's not uncommon to never group with another rogue (as generally in 5 and 10 mans you don't need more than 1) to see what others are doing. So how is the game supposed to teach him? He was disappointed with how he did on the damage meter and asked friends for help. But the game offered no answers...and no meter that comes "standard," and without that he would have no idea he was doing anything wrong.

So how does the game, in it's current format, teach you jack? You can start raiding, playing completely sub-optimally, and without an addon have no idea you are doing anything wrong. And when you have the addon and see there is a problem, the game offers no advice.

So yeah, maybe everyone should be expected to research outside of WoW. But I don't think that's fair. Sure, if you want to be top of the heap and 100% optimal, I can see that the game changes enough that in-game advice can't keep up. But the very basic things (hunters clipping auto-shot, rogues using slice and dice), the really basic starting ground for these classes should be taught somewhere I think. To not do so is a disservice, not only to the poor players who don't know any better, but to those they group with.

None of this affects most of the posters here...you are in BT, have been clearing it for ages, and frankly you could probably care less about joe rogue who doesn't research his class. You don't group with him, and likely never will. But helping people get some of these basics down, and providing tools with the game (damage meters and threat meters) to measure performance (not everyone uses addons) can only do good. Too many players do no research outside of the game to excuse Blizzard not implementing some kind of in-game help.

This deserves to be highlighted. Any regular reader of EJ has figured out by now that Blizzard devs don't know what the best stat distribution is for a class. How many times has Blizzard changed items ingame because of theorycrafting on this forum and WoW forums? How many times have they changed Tier set stats because they, for example, magically realized that Enhance Shamans (or was it the Prot pally set?) don't need mp5? How many times have they continually changed talents that have been in since beta (Illumination nerfed to 50% on test, then 60% on live)?

I keep hearing that Blizzard has an internal raid team that tests encounters/specs/gear/whatever, and every time I hear that, I never understand why they even bother. If you're testing it, why bother with the test realms? Then, when people uncover serious problems on the test realm, Blizzard ends up ignoring everybody, updating the live servers with the "buggy" version of WoW, then going back and hotfixing everything. I would honestly give my left nut for a chance to see how the WoW devs actually work. But I digress.

The bottom line is, the players are the best people to figure out stuff like rotations. If Blizzard can't do it because they're lazy/stupid/have some sort of religious objection to it, then we have to do it. However, I'm not complaining, seriously. I'm a math geek. I like poring over pages of calculations and "what-if" scenarios and seeing what makes sense. If you don't like math, thats fine, go over to the theorycrafting thread, just read the summaries and TLDRs, and you're more than set to do good DPS/threat/healing efficiency.

I would ask, does it really matter? Not trying to be rude, but I think the question is valid. Does he do well in DPS compared to others (say, midway or so in the DPS charts?).

If he does, why does it matter that he does slightly lower DPS? He's in Kara, his guild will probably never see BT/Hyjal, taking a few extra seconds to down Prince or Netherspite doesn't really matter. This was my point earlier on in the thread, he doesn't have to do number 1 DPS, he just has to be "good enough" for his level of raiding.

This is probably the best suggestion I've read on the subject. It's not invasive in anyone's gameplay, its not required. It just gives players that need it an option. A good option at that, that entirely fits into the game world (most of azeroth has been a none-stop warzone for the last 30+years? it makes sense that the people would have training areas and libraries dedicated to combat).

As for the subject of cheating: we treat MMOs differently to single-player games because of the nature of the competition. in MMOs we compete with our ALLIES (okey, we fight bosses, but are we competing with the boss, or the guy above us on the damage meter? The guys in the other raid guilds on your server?). PvE is a poor name for it, it should really be PvA. And when you're competing with your friends, you damn sure want to have a level playing field. Which means learning everything you suspect they know, drawing on extra resources that you know they're using, etc. Its not cheating, its levelling the playing field.

I think you just proved the point that there needs to be some type of training scenario for classes. Where else would a hunter need a perfect shot rotation other than a raid? Well, okay, then where would he learn it? I'm sure a group that is ready to go to Kara, all excited to be there, will be pissed off when a hunter in their group has good gear, but can't seem to put out the numbers and ends up running OOM too fast.

And what if there is no one else around that can help them? You can't naturally assume that everyone in the guild knows the intricacies of a class they don't play inside and out.

Supplementally: the training scenario some above suggested can be something as simple as "Keep SnD up for an entire minute on this dummy," or "fire 30 shots in 20 seconds on this target," or "Keep scorch ticks up for 2 minutes while dealing 20000 damage." These would be very constructive to the entire raiding population.

Just to follow this on a little, one thing that you could do is give all the class trainers a tip for players. I was actually quite disappointed on my first char that there was no difference between the 3 trainers apart from their levels. Or even throw in a "debate" between 3 rogue trainers:

"Eviscerate is the best finishing move, how can you beat the burst damage?"
"No way, Rupture because it works against heavily armoured foes, you would be as good poking them with a stick!"
"You both have a point, but in long fights Slice n Dice is the way to go. Putting out more damage overall is what I bring to a group."

This doesn't solve the hunter rotation, warrior avoidance things, and could be prone to misinformation, but it's organic enough to fit into the game world easily, far more so than target dummies and instanced dps tests. And since you go to a class trainer every 2 levels, it's not even requiring more effort on your part to find it.

This.

Blizzard can't give specific information because game mechanics are always changing, and they don't even understand the mechanics of their own game (or just blatantly ignore them). Seemingly slight mechanical changes can completely change the way a class works (consider TCB changes like lifebloom stacking, new mechanics like haste and armor penetration, etc). They can't afford to tell players about a "shot rotation" or anything like that, because it will likely change within months.

At best you are looking at maybe some low level tutorial quests for new players on the basics of how to play their class, but is that really going to solve anything? Do you want to raid with someone who never spent any time at all learning about the game, how their class works, or anything of the sort? Information is readily available about anything they would want to find out at this point via many different sources. If they can't do the leg work, then who cares about them anyway?

The only excuse for being a poor player at this stage of the game is apathy, and you can't cure apathy with tutorials. If people don't want to learn how to improve their play, so be it. Take your free HK in AB and move on.

I do not understand at all how anyone can compare searching internet for answers to riddles in single-player games with searching internet for hints on how to perform better in MMORPG.

When you play a single player game, that riddle = the game. If you google the answer, you finish the game by cheating. Equivalent to this in WoW is basically buying T6 character on e-bay, but not checking up tips and hints on how to perform better. Being better is not the goal of the game.

You do not need to read EJ to find out what is optimal threat rotation for warrior, you can find out yourself just by reading the tooltips, experimenting and thinking about it. On the other side, you have (i guess?) no way to find out that shield block is used to remove crushings, that boss has 5.6% chance to crit you, that chance to miss with spells is about 17% and that 4cp rip and 5cp rip receive the same bonus from attack power thus it is perfectly ok to rip on 4cp.

So, i think that Blizzard could provide a bit more information to the players regarding the interaction between players and mobs. E.g. you could right-click a mob and get some info (e.g. that you have 3% chance to miss the mob, etc), but apart from that, i think it is fine as it is.