Blackthought

I would propose that Blizzard utilize the Zul Aman/Bug Trio model on a wider basis. Take relative simple bosses and increase their rewards if they are killed within a certain time or in a certain manner. This would benefit the newer, less experienced raiders by allowing them to make progress and receive loot and also benefit the experienced raiders by offering them more challenging content with better rewards. The benefit is that it would take substantially less development resources than making two dungeons. Additionally, it would ensure that more players can follow the raiding story arc.

My only question to those of you who are at the more hardcore end of the spectrum is would you be unhappy with a situation where a guild whose is well below your skill level could kill an Illidan who dropped lower quality (i.e., no Warglaives) loot?

 

Riallatar

That question's been asked before, referencing 'lite mode' versions of the 25-man raids, and every time it comes up, the fulltime raiders shout it down because they want their exclusive content. The semi-casuals (of which I'm one) would fully approve of the idea of last season's raid with a fraction of the difficulty - learn the teamwork without the cutting edge stress, as it were.

 

Maczor

The level cap will be raised to 80 soon so you can go back and kill 'lite mode' Illidan. The rewards for being a 'fulltime' raider are a handful of excellent fights. I would be unhappy if they made a version of Illidan that could be easily killed by a guild that is incapable of killing Vashj.

 

Tejs

Is it just me, or did you just respond to his point with the exact response he said fulltime raiders would use?

 

• Lima

It is true that he did this. But, its also true that he correctly pointed out that Riallatar (and some other "casual raiders") already have what they are asking for. Ragnaros and Nefarian are very much casual raids at level 70 compared to 60, and this pattern is sure to repeat itself for WOTLK.

That having been said though, I personally would not be opposed to future raid encounters having a 'heroic mode' and a 'normal' mode.

 

Anedris

I would have zero problems with there being "lite" versions of raids. If I've beaten the hard version, I know I've beaten the hard version and anyone who inspects me knows it too - it doesn't cheapen my accomplishment just because some less serious guild has viewed the same pixels and seen the same death animation. Plus, giving top tier raiders exclusive content makes no business sense - we could all quit and it wouldn't hurt Blizzard much at all.

That said, it needs to be done right - the lite version needs to be hard enough that the casual guild it's aimed at still feels a sense of accomplishment when, after months of progression and many many wipes, they finally succeed in beating the RaidingGameLite.

Edit: As recompense for this lite version however, I would want the "heroic" version to be harder. No more Rages, Supremuses, Akamas - make things that are hard. Not buggy stupid RNG hard but simply very challenging, very rewarding encounters.

I don't think they'll do this however.

More likely is we'll simply get Naxx, which will be basically easy for the serious no-passengers crowd (I would guess about post-nerf Kara difficulty, though perhaps without an encounter as complicated as Moroes placed second in the instance), but will provide some content that more casual guilds can kill and learn on. And the more serious guilds will clear it once or twice and then begin on the harder dungeon (Malygos? Azjol-Nerub and an Old God?).

 

vorda

The problem with 'hard mode' bosses would be the rewarding and keeping balance. They'd have to balance 'hard mode' items with PvP items, non raid PvE and future content.

 

Kehoe

Well, in response to allowing casual players to see end game content on a lite version, I believe this is a horrible idea in the current state of gear. Call me an elitist, but the majority of my time has been spent in these guilds that have trouble conquering even simple concepts because of bad players. I made the transition into higher content to get away from these people who don't want to put the effort in. Pre-TBC, I could maybe see having a lite version of an instance being viable with the absence of quality PVP gear, because PVE gear typically dominated in PVP. You do Illidan on heroic mode, great you have the gear that will be worth something outside a raid instance.

In current raiding though, I may get a bow from Illidan that can be used outside raiding, but the majority of my gear would not work well outside the instance for PVP and such. And I am fine with this, because with this gear I can experience content that guilds in Kara and SSC won't get to see. The purpose of PVE gear is to be able to conquer harder PVE content. Taking away the hard aspect of these bosses leaves the only drive for downing these bosses on "heroic" style is being known as a guild that can do it at this level. So if they are going to make a change like this, make a gear that is viable for the PVE on heroic, and then strong for PVP comparable to the latest season gear. That way doing more difficult content isn't just a title, it has some benefit outside of the instance.

I can definately see where the casual players are coming from, especially ones who have played previous Warcraft games and want to see these characters. But a lot of us doing this hard content put the money, time, and effort in to do this, not for some title like "Champion of the Naruu".

On a side note, I started the expansion in a Kara/Gruul guild, and we had an extremely hard time bridging Kara and the first 25 mans. It already appears they are doing this, but come expansion time, have an entry level 25 man, instead of having a 10 man in which you need 2 1/2 groups running through for gear so you can get your one 25 man that has never worked together. Nothing wrong with having a set of 10 mans for smaller guilds and pugs, and a set of 25 mans that can be run without ever seeing the 10 mans.

 

Blackthought

The benefit for beating "hard mode" would be the same as it is today, you would have better PVE gear in order to allow you to progress the other "hard mode" PVE content. This fact would not change by having heroic and non-heroic versions of dungeons. I am not sure why pvp gear as a reward would be appropriate.

 

javelin

I'd also prefer an idea of a 25-man gateway instance with a st of 10 man instances after it in progression; it lends itself to a bit more fluid progression, since while you're still working with an uneven number, the number is swayed in your favor this time (vice having to run 2.5 separate raids to get geared for the single 25-man).

Also Kehoe, I think your concern is one we all share, and that's why somebody brought up comparable gear for comparable difficulty. Beating Raid Lite really shouldn't net you Raid Normal or Raid Heroic gear, just like running regular 5-mans doesn't net you Badges or Heroic gear either. Maybe set the gear in Raid Lite as comparable for bridging gear between the Lite instances and Normal instances, with (for example) BT Lite giving enough of a gear edge to get a foot into say, SSC or TK Normal. It still leaves a lot of content to be done 'hardway', but allows those guilds sa learning curve that's manageable while still putting up a significant challenge to overcome to play with the big boys.

I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should chellenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.--Mark Twain

 

Fringe_Worthy

Personally, I think you should be able to have one wing of Naxx shattered, a spell of destruction your raid assists on the ground slamming into one flank, leaving the trash dazed and broken, a boss staggering, a ceiling support beam dropped through them.

Sure some of the treasure vaults may be crushed. Sure those artifacts are drained and broken of power, unavailable, those prisoners already sacrificed, spent to heal the boss up a bit.

But something to allow lesser guilds to build some momentum. And to gel as a team. Of course, I likely play too much as a casual + wannabe hardcore guild so it was easy to some people collapse into Kara for Epics. That whole 10 x 2.5 vs 25 thing. Only now rebuilding.

 

vorda

But how would you scale that with season XX gear? Assuming you'll need a certain balance between raid lite and season XX aswell. (think tier 6 weapons vs season 3 currently, then try to fit the picture with another tier of PvE weapons added)

 

Kirion

Personally i'd be very dissapointed if they will nerf Naxx 2.0 too much. Tune for 25 man, rework 4H and Loatheb - that's ok. But don't make it MC 2.0.

42.

 

Duilliath

I would like to point out that Blizzard is doing a great job of introducing Raid Concepts in 5man instances though.

One need only think of the first boss in Arcatraz with its Void Zones and compare it to Al'ar or Netherspite.

Shade of Aran Arcane Explosion ? Think the end boss of Sethekk Halls.

There's a whole slow of comparisons like that. Even the growth mechanism of Gruul is copied in Underbog Lords. Similarly, Quagmirran's Acid Spray is pretty much the same thing as the trash in SSC.

I could go on and make a huge list, but I'm sure you'll get the idea.

A huge number of the initial raid 'training' already is in place in 5man instances and the rest is taken care of through Karazhan.

I suppose they think that by the time yer done with SSC/TK that you can figure out raid encounters by yourself.

 

• Xaviera

Doesn't it seem kind of obvious that Naxx should be fairly simple to tune, since it was fine in the past?

"Casual" raiding guilds were completely able to kill Razuvious and Anub, once Faerlina was nerfed it became simple for those same guilds to kill Faerlina and Maexxna. After that they could also easily kill Noth, and by then they probably had enough gear for Patchwerk, and thus Grobbulus.

Naxx was already tuned in a way that let you pick certain easier wings to do and finish, as they just simply had flat out easier bosses. I think it was perfect before, many others agree, and if they repeated that, I can't imagine there being complaining. That particular instance having such a large amount of bosses gives them a ton of room for individual boss scaling as they move further along. A 4-5 boss raid will either have several sharp jumps, or none at all. It's just better design style to appeal to a broader range of players. The casuals can still get a significant amount of boss kills and loot, and gradually work their way around the 15 boss dungeon.

 

• the KRIS

Heigan is still hard at 70 for players that never did the fight, because there has never been a mechanic like that before or since.

Many of the fights are going to need significant mechanic changes to be workable for 25, and to be decently easy. It's not feasible to expect four hit-capped priests for Rasuvious, it's way too casual to demand all 25 people in full FrR for Saph, and it's ludicrous to expect 8 tanks for 4h unless you make them so wimpy that a holy pally/resto druid in bear form can tank them.

 

Mineisbigger

What i mainly hope to see is a more graduated beginning, with the easy bosses collected in one instance, to avoid the jumping back and forth between Mag's lair, SSC and TK. I think the progress of my guild went like: Lurker (SSC) -> VR (TK) -> Solarian (TK) -> Mag (ML) -> Hydross (SSC).

Would be far easier if they had added all the easy bosses in one instances, like they did back in MC. I think besides all the obvious flaws, the difficulty graduation in MC and BWL was very good. You took all the bosses in mc, and then started on bosses that were slightly harder in BWL, and then going to bosses in AQ, that were again slightly harder. It adds a bigger feeling of "Hey, we cleared <InsertRandomInstance> now, damn we're hardcore.

The riddiculous difficulty of the TBC 25man raid bosses back before 2.1, has already been mentioned, so I'm not gonna dig too much into that, but just say that I feel a few more casual 25man bosses are needed. At the real new raiders only have the 2 bosses in Gruul to take on, once they're done with Kara. After that, they go break their neck on Lurker or Hydross, bosses which are after all quite a bit harder.

So what I'd like to see:
10man instance, roughly equally Kara now, just slightly less trash.
Easy 25man instance (think MC) (with slightly hard encounters by the end (Think Leotheras or Al'ar difficulty))
Semihard 25man instance (with very hard encounters from middle and onwards. (I think say 8 bosses, first 4 could be Karathress, Hydross, Mag style, next 4 Vashj, Kael Style.)

I suppose it would be best to make Naxx relatively easy, in order to not make guilds that already cleared it plenty of times, have to clear it a gazillion times again.

 

Kirion

Heigan is only hard for retards and players with unstable connection.

You dont need hit cap for Razuvios - adds were not 73lvl. And shadow priests dont need hit to mind control at all.

Whats wrong with resistance gear? There was FR requirment in MC and BWL.

42.

 

Talgog

The transition from MC to BWL was most certainly not easy or natural. BWL began with Razorgore (what the hell is this fight, what are we supposed to do) and Vael (three second wipe, good work!).

It then followed with Broodlord and the three drakes. Gear components aside, are they more like MC, or are Razorgore and Vael more like MC? And which ones are "harder?"

Frontloading the zone and making the next four bosses loot chests so long as specific gear requirements were met was an interesting design decision, but there is a reason Vael was the most notorious guild killer and player killer in WoW history.

 

Tucker

As a relatively new player and even newer raider, I find this thread very interesting. I have a question to pose to the experienced raiders: What would you think of a "smart loot" system to determine boss drops? What I am thinking is a system that would check the composition of the raid, and the gear it already has before determining the loot that a boss drops. My experiences that lead me to this idea come from running Kara many times without a shaman, and invariably on Maiden, for example, the totem drops. Or that we have two hunters with TWO Sunfury bows from Prince because he seemingly won't drop any other loot for us. Yes, bad luck, I understand, but if there was a "smart loot" system, our group could move faster into ZA and other content and wouldn't need to be running the same instance over and over because we are unlucky to get the drops that some members need to progress.

 

• Deris

Hopefully the new Naxx is tuned very similarly to the original Naxx, in that the first boss of each wing, and most of the Spider wing was "easy". Just tune it down to where a guild with basic ideas of mechanics can win, and bam - recipe for success. Keep the Plague wing challenging, along with Patchwerk being a gear check - and you have a perfect progression point for new guilds.

 

deneba

I somewhat like the current setup. It seems like the 5-person instances teach us how to play our class, the 10-person instances teach us how to synergize our classes with other classes, and the 25-person instances teach us how to synergize groups of classes across different roles. To be honest, I think that middle step was somewhat lacking prior to the expansion... most people went straight from 5-person to 40person. I went from being the only warlock to being one of six or seven, and in the process I learned very little about class synergy... raiding was mostly about acting on queue, hitting the big red button when someone told me to hit the big red button.

My only real concern has been that accessibility (which is different from difficulty!) should scale accordingly too. Karazhan was ridiculously long... for a tentative, recently-hit-70 group, it was a matter of stepping up from a 90 minute 5-person run to a multinight 7 hour Kara run... and the former might take an extra hour to work out the first time whereas the latter could take weeks or months until all the kinks were worked out and Prince finally fell. IMO, Karazhan and Zul'Aman should have been swapped. ZA should have been the 10-person raid to arrive at launch, fast and accessible, with Karazhan being the fall-2007 followup with harder content and a better loot table. Then, the transition from 5 to 10 to 25 would have been perfect, in terms of learning curve, character development, required effort and loot table.

 

Dollar

I think this would make the raid game overall "easier" without making it feel cheapend. Don't tell me that anyone likes disenchanting the same thing every week when people need upgrades off that boss.

"You know what they say, fool me once, strike one and fool me twice...strike 3."